Utah Muzzleloader Proposed Changes

[PLhunter]

Utah, is considering some major changes. I support these changes but I could see someone who invested loads of money into a long range scoped muzzleloader being against these changes. To me it just means the potential for more opportunity.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/1787-dwr-proposes-research-study-and-weapon-technology-use-changes-and-mandatory-harvest-reporting-for-general-season-deer-and-elk-hunts.html#:~:text=After%20assessing%20the%20committee's%20feedback,muzzleloaders%20for%20all%20muzzleloader%20hunts.

 

[ENCORE]

I know there's a ton of people totally against the proposed changes, specifically elimination of scoped rifles. There hasn't been any significant increase in the harvest because of scoped muzzleloaders. There is no data indicating that there has been an increase in lost/wounded animals while using scoped rifles.
Accuracy is improved with a scoped rifle for the general hunting population also.
Here's what will ......... likely........... happen if that passes. There will be a significant drop in the number of hunters, which is happening in every state regardless. The traditionalists will ruin the sport of muzzleloading if they don't except modern advances. No one is taking away anyone's right to use a side hammer or flint.

Just as it happened at the NMLRA, you can't take away a young person's smart phone and hand them a rotary phone. The traditionalists at the NMLRA, threatened to quit their membership and all other crazy things, all because of modern inline rifles, scoped of course, shooting at Friendship. With the average member's age being 70+ in the NMLRA, they had to obtain new and younger members. Once they increased the number of modern inline matches, membership started to increase with a younger generation. When the Championship and Nationals are held now, Friendship is packed again and the number of modern inline shooters (members) increased.

 

[wildwilderness]

I know there's a ton of people totally against the proposed changes, specifically elimination of scoped rifles. There hasn't been any significant increase in the harvest because of scoped muzzleloaders. There is no data indicating that there has been an increase in lost/wounded animals while using scoped rifles.
Accuracy is improved with a scoped rifle for the general hunting population also.
Here's what will ......... likely........... happen if that passes. There will be a significant drop in the number of hunters, which is happening in every state regardless. The traditionalists will ruin the sport of muzzleloading if they don't except modern advances. No one is taking away anyone's right to use a side hammer or flint.

Just as it happened at the NMLRA, you can't take away a young person's smart phone and hand them a rotary phone. The traditionalists at the NMLRA, threatened to quit their membership and all other crazy things, all because of modern inline rifles, scoped of course, shooting at Friendship. With the average member's age being 70+ in the NMLRA, they had to obtain new and younger members. Once they increased the number of modern inline matches, membership started to increase with a younger generation. When the Championship and Nationals are held now, Friendship is packed again and the number of modern inline shooters (members) increased.

The western states DO NOT have a problem with big game hunter recruitment. There is more demand than ever for Deer tags across the west. So I support removing scopes from muzzleloaders to keep it a more primitive hunt as intended and not another single shot rifle season.

 

[CMP70306]

Utah, is considering some major changes. I support these changes but I could see someone who invested loads of money into a long range scoped muzzleloader being against these changes. To me it just means the potential for more opportunity.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/1787-dwr-proposes-research-study-and-weapon-technology-use-changes-and-mandatory-harvest-reporting-for-general-season-deer-and-elk-hunts.html#:~:text=After%20assessing%20the%20committee's%20feedback,muzzleloaders%20for%20all%20muzzleloader%20hunts.

The western states DO NOT have a problem with big game hunter recruitment. There is more demand than ever for Deer tags across the west. So I support removing scopes from muzzleloaders to keep it a more primitive hunt as intended and not another single shot rifle season.

In the report it states that allowing scopes only increases the success rate by 3% so what exactly is removing them accomplishing?

 

[ENCORE]

Why hunting participation across the West is increasing is a complicated answer; however, it comes down to an overall American pool of hunting, data availability and social media. Let me explain. Across every state in our great country, there are millions of hunters with most estimates totaling more than 11 million nationwide. That is a lot of hunters; however, there are only a handful of western states and our population is not very dense overall. The vast majority of American hunters come from states other than western ones.

The effect of increased hunting pressure out West comes on multiple levels. More hunters in the application pool cause point creep, reduce draw chances and cause states to change their policies, raise prices and reduce nonresident tag availability. More hunters in the field change animal behaviors, alter previously found honey holes and make it difficult to find a spot to park at a trailhead among other issues. However, on the other hand, more western hunters give hunting a bigger voice with politicians and lawmakers, help fund conservation initiatives, positively impact western businesses, help with animal population control, provide clean organic food for their families and support other e-commerce and outdoor businesses, among other things. Overall, when it comes to anything like this, there are good and bad effects and, as true sportsmen and sportswomen, we should conclude that hunter recruitment is a good thing for all hunters in America.

 

[wildwilderness]

In the report it states that allowing scopes only increases the success rate by 3% so what exactly is removing them accomplishing?

Any reduction can help with opportunity.

I would argue that 3% increase includes a much bigger increase in trophy sized deer being killed as well. Scoped muzzleloaders shooting out past 500 yds greatly helps killing the big one

 

[ENCORE]

................. Scoped muzzleloaders shooting out past 500 yds greatly helps killing the big one

How many muzzleloader shooters do you know that are shooting accurately beyond 500yds? Very few I'd bet.
There are more shooting beyond 500yds with a CF rifle, which is scoped too and I dare say more animals lost. So lets eliminate scopes all together, right? No scopes on any firearm. Eliminate scopes on cross bows, eliminate pins on compounds, along with kisser buttons.
Everyone can dress up in drag too, pretending to be someone they are not.

 

[ENCORE]

 

[CMP70306]

Any reduction can help with opportunity.

I would argue that 3% increase includes a much bigger increase in trophy sized deer being killed as well. Scoped muzzleloaders shooting out past 500 yds greatly helps killing the big one

So I pulled the 2022 Buck Deer harvest data, there were 12,968 permits issued and 3,793 bucks killed during the muzzleloader season. So depending on if they calculate that 3% success based on the total number of permits or the total number of harvests it gives you between 114 and 389 bucks not being killed without scopes.

Pretty sure the weather can affect the harvest more than that.

 

[CorbLand]

The question should be more based on what defines a primative weapon, which is what muzzleloader seasons were implemented to be. The success rate of most muzzleloader seasons in Utah is within 3 percent of the ALW season.

Which should tell you that all muzzleloader season has become is early, single shot rifle season.

A 3 percent increase to an overall 30% success rate is a 10% increase to the success rate. It sounds small when you compare it to 100% but its actually quite large if you look at it in the terms that it should be.

Taking away scopes is not going to decrease hunter recruitment. What is going to decrease hunter recruitment is telling a kid "happy twelfth birthday, we can go hunting when you draw a tag at 18, then 30 then 54." We are already at this in Utah. There are very few units that you can get a ALW or Muzzy tag with less than 1 to 2 points and the vast majority are pushing 5 plus points needed.

Idaho has some of the most restrictive muzzleloader regulations of western states...they have zero problem with too few hunters. What they do have is great odds for people that are willing to handicap themselves with more primitive weapons.

Whether we like it or not, we as hunters are getting more and more effective every year. It is a combination of a lot of things and we are going to have to make changes if we want to continue to hunt. I worry less about losing the ability to hunt then I do about not being able to hunt because we cant get tags.

 

[Leverwalker]

Sorry ahead of time because I'm probably jumping into the middle of something with ignorance, but the one thing that bums me out is that my eyes are pretty much gone, limiting me to scopes. Ask this guy who grew up hunting with iron sights on a Marlin '97, how much he hates scoping his Marlin guide gun. I tried like hell to make a Skinner work - bought and sold one 3 times - but finally accepted that the game deserves my literal best shot. Still working on it but as of now accepting my days with iron sights or peeps in the hunting field are almost certainly over.

That said, I completely get the sensibility of traditionalists over this. Just wish I could do it, but that's life. At some point there will all of us have seen our last season afield, for whatever the reason(s).

 

[OXN939]

Unfortunately, restrictions like "irons only" for muzzleloaders are necessary now. Otherwise there will be too many kids fresh off a Cameron Hanes youtube video throwing 400 yard shots at animals without ever having chronoed the load they're shooting or developed a dope card, all in the quest for attention from strangers online.

If you don't think this is part of a much broader and more powerful wave of regs that is just starting to land, I've got some beautiful beachfront property in the Sahara available

 

[Wrench]

Irons only and sidelocks aren't the handicap you may think they are.

I put this rig together to do longer ranges with style. I have not touched my tricked out inlines since it showed up in my life. Real black powder, a lead bullet and a #11 will beat an awful lot of pellet rigs.

If I were you, I'd pray for tighter regulations and longer seasons / better opportunities.

 

[rmarshall]

Any reduction can help with opportunity.

I would argue that 3% increase includes a much bigger increase in trophy sized deer being killed as well. Scoped muzzleloaders shooting out past 500 yds greatly helps killing the big one

This is exactly what I think, I’ve seen the mature buck harvest go up with scoped muzzys

 

[HighUintas]

Irons only and sidelocks aren't the handicap you may think they are.

I put this rig together to do longer ranges with style. I have not touched my tricked out inlines since it showed up in my life. Real black powder, a lead bullet and a #11 will beat an awful lot of pellet rigs.

If I were you, I'd pray for tighter regulations and longer seasons / better opportunities.

View attachment 621591View attachment 621592

Is that a green mountain drop in barrel on a TC? What's your effective range on game?

 

[Wrench]

Is that a green mountain drop in barrel on a TC? What's your effective range on game?

This one is a tc 48 twist. I can beat milk jugs at 300 with regularity.....but range is dictated by available light (the iris needs light) and the wind..... with bc's at or below .2, she gets pushed around a bit.

 

[MuleyFever]

I hope they get rid of scopes.

 

[wildwilderness]

How many muzzleloader shooters do you know that are shooting accurately beyond 500yds? Very few I'd bet.
There are more shooting beyond 500yds with a CF rifle, which is scoped too and I dare say more animals lost. So lets eliminate scopes all together, right? No scopes on any firearm. Eliminate scopes on cross bows, eliminate pins on compounds, along with kisser buttons.
Everyone can dress up in drag too, pretending to be someone they are not.

You don’t live in the west and see the ever increasing number of hunters and lower numbers of deer, elk etc.

Absolutely opposed to crossbows in archery season, scopes on muzzleloader etc. I’d be fine eliminating the modern rifle season! Think of the opportunities to actually draw a tag in your lifetime for deer, elk maybe sheep, pronghorn etc Instead of waiting 20+ years for a chance.

If everything went back to spear and rock hunting I’d do that

What you are missing is the hunter recruitment needs to be for small game hunting. Definitely not western big game.

 

[HighUintas]

This one is a tc 48 twist. I can beat milk jugs at 300 with regularity.....but range is dictated by available light (the iris needs light) and the wind..... with bc's at or below .2, she gets pushed around a bit.

What projectile are you shooting to 300 yards with that twist?

 

[PLhunter]

Glad to see so many people discussing this. I see both sides but I also don’t think doing this will drop total hunter numbers. Some folks who found a hack with long range dial scope muzzleloaders will just head back over to rifle. Folks muzzleloader hunting with scopes don’t strike me as the type to say…. Yelp never hunting again…

I think the change is a good one. Personally, I like Oregons muzzleloader rules. Results in fewer hunters hunting that particular season and makes for a fun experience. Also, if I was a Utah hunter who paid a bunch to hack the system with a long range muzzleloader. I’d be singing a different tune.