Utah Muzzleloader Proposed Changes

[UpTop]

I just find it ridiculous when 2 weeks after the muzzleloader massacre, as people are trying to make it out to be, which it is definitely not, we’re allowing a rifle season with no scope type restrictions at all. The whole thing is emotion based by a large group of people who don’t even muzzleloader hunt. There is an extremely small group of people who are successful at long range muzzy shooting being blown out of proportion to make it feel like a justified stance to take on the issue. If we’re going to restrict the muzzy guys you dang well better start restricting all other forms of long range aids as well. I personally have been shooting with iron sites on my gun for years but I can see through the bs on this one.

 

[MallardSX2]

I hope that they go to iron sights for all rifles and recurve bows only.

I'd be cool with that. It would get rid of most of the flat brim douchebags that post 800 yards kill shots (And wounding shots) on YouTube for the world to see.

I am not one of the guys who wants to restrict muzzleloaders so I can have a better rifle hunt.....I want to restrict all hunting weapons to lighten the pressure on the resource and make 50% of the people give it up.

Right now, it takes a NR 12 years to draw an archery Wasatch tag.....lol The Wasatch....think about that. The resource is being overhunted and overharvested by ALL weapons. I am looking forward to seeing what the new restrictions on deer do in the southern units (if they pass) for sure.

 

[MuleyFever]

Right now, it takes a NR 12 years to draw an archery Wasatch tag.....lol The Wasatch....think about that. The resource is being overhunted and overharvested by ALL weapons. I am looking forward to seeing what the new restrictions on deer do in the southern units (if they pass) for sure.

The lack of opportunity here in UT is a huge issue. You cant even hunt general archery deer every other year in many units now. General rifle deer tags in many units are now 4-5 points. Its sad.

 

[OXN939]

Glad to see so many people discussing this. I see both sides but I also don’t think doing this will drop total hunter numbers.

Our sport doesn't need more hunters, we need the right kind of hunters. And returning seasons to their original intent- removing xbows from archery season, long range muzzleloaders from blackpowder seasons- is exactly the way to do that.

 

[Kurts86]

I think this is good thing to restrict optics because it puts the brakes on the super muzzleloaders we have seen in recent years.

I have used muzzleloaders in scoped sabot long range mode and irons/full bore and it definitely changes things significantly. I have killed with a scoped muzzleloader out to 250 yards and my limit with irons is going to be half or less that. That has a big impact especially on deer effective range, somewhat less so on elk.

I will say I will always push muzzleloader technology/regs right up to their limit for whatever state I’m hunting in but I’m also not bothered when their are some restrictions that maintain the original intent of the primitive weapon season.

The trend towards long range muzzleloaders in recent years feels like crossbow’s a decade ago for eastern deer hunting. It wasn’t an organic, grassroots shift but rather something the industry saw as a way to sell more equipment. The good thing here is that western states are willing to push back on technology/industry trends when the original intent of the regulations have been fundamentally changing the intent of a primitive weapons hunt.

It would be interesting to see the application changes NM saw for muzzleloader tags after their regulation changes and if it reduced the number of applications at all.

 

[AntelopeEater]

Sorry ahead of time because I'm probably jumping into the middle of something with ignorance, but the one thing that bums me out is that my eyes are pretty much gone, limiting me to scopes. Ask this guy who grew up hunting with iron sights on a Marlin '97, how much he hates scoping his Marlin guide gun. I tried like hell to make a Skinner work - bought and sold one 3 times - but finally accepted that the game deserves my literal best shot. Still working on it but as of now accepting my days with iron sights or peeps in the hunting field are almost certainly over.

That said, I completely get the sensibility of traditionalists over this. Just wish I could do it, but that's life. At some point there will all of us have seen our last season afield, for whatever the reason(s).

I believe with a doctor's note you could probably get an exemption to use a scope if needed.

 

[CMP70306]

Glad to see so many people discussing this. I see both sides but I also don’t think doing this will drop total hunter numbers. Some folks who found a hack with long range dial scope muzzleloaders will just head back over to rifle. Folks muzzleloader hunting with scopes don’t strike me as the type to say…. Yelp never hunting again…

I think the change is a good one. Personally, I like Oregons muzzleloader rules. Results in fewer hunters hunting that particular season and makes for a fun experience. Also, if I was a Utah hunter who paid a bunch to hack the system with a long range muzzleloader. I’d be singing a different tune.

I think this is good thing to restrict optics because it puts the brakes on the super muzzleloaders we have seen in recent years.

I have used muzzleloaders in scoped sabot long range mode and irons/full bore and it definitely changes things significantly. I have killed with a scoped muzzleloader out to 250 yards and my limit with irons is going to be half or less that. That has a big impact especially on deer effective range, somewhat less so on elk.

I will say I will always push muzzleloader technology/regs right up to their limit for whatever state I’m hunting in but I’m also not bothered when their are some restrictions that maintain the original intent of the primitive weapon season.

The trend towards long range muzzleloaders in recent years feels like crossbow’s a decade ago for eastern deer hunting. It wasn’t an organic, grassroots shift but rather something the industry saw as a way to sell more equipment. The good thing here is that western states are willing to push back on technology/industry trends when the original intent of the regulations have been fundamentally changing the intent of a primitive weapons hunt.

It would be interesting to see the application changes NM saw for muzzleloader tags after their regulation changes and if it reduced the number of applications at all.

But this takes us back to the same issue I bring up every time this topic comes up, restricting to iron sights only still leaves the hunter with a flat shooting 300+ yard muzzleloader. Just look at the below trajectory chart, from top to bottom,

Modern Smokeless muzzleloader
BH209 with high BC bullets
Standard Inline shooting sabots
.50 cal Flint/cap lock with lead bullets


As you can see even removing scopes still leaves any muzzleloader shooting the high BC bullets plenty capable past 300 yards. The only real way to curb that, if that is their intention, is to limit the rifles and projectiles. I can slap a Nightforce on a flintlock but that doesn’t make it a 300 yard rifle.

 

[CorbLand]

Just because someone supports taking scopes off muzzleloaders doesnt mean they have to support the same on rifles or any other restrictions. It is not all or nothing. Anyone that says that is simply using that as a straw man argument.

Muzzy seasons were implemented as a primitive weapon. They were to allow another opportunity between archery and rifle season. It was to provided better draw odds for people that are willing to hunt with a weapon that is harder than a rifle and easier than a bow.

Allowing the continued drive of technology on muzzleloaders is pushing them past that primitive intent. Simply shoving the bullet down the barrel is not primitive.

 

[Kurts86]

But this takes us back to the same issue I bring up every time this topic comes up, restricting to iron sights only still leaves the hunter with a flat shooting 300+ yard muzzleloader. Just look at the below trajectory chart, from top to bottom,

Modern Smokeless muzzleloader
BH209 with high BC bullets
Standard Inline shooting sabots
.50 cal Flint/cap lock with lead bullets
View attachment 621972

As you can see even removing scopes still leaves any muzzleloader shooting the high BC bullets plenty capable past 300 yards. The only real way to curb that, if that is their intention, is to limit the rifles and projectiles. I can slap a Nightforce on a flintlock but that doesn’t make it a 300 yard rifle.

Removing the scope has very definite real world effects on the effective range for most shooters, especially hunters.

Shooting iron sights is somewhat of a lost art and as much as you can handpick some NRA high power competitor who is capable out to 300 yards the general hunting public isn’t past 100 yards 90% of the time.

For range and BC a minimum bullet diameter definitely has a big effect on range. There are not a ton of gains for 50 caliber rifles versus 45 or 40 caliber options.

I really like Colorado’s muzzleloader regulations. It lets me have some modern conveniences without dramatically extending effective range.

 

[PLhunter]

But this takes us back to the same issue I bring up every time this topic comes up, restricting to iron sights only still leaves the hunter with a flat shooting 300+ yard muzzleloader. Just look at the below trajectory chart, from top to bottom,

Modern Smokeless muzzleloader
BH209 with high BC bullets
Standard Inline shooting sabots
.50 cal Flint/cap lock with lead bullets
View attachment 621972

As you can see even removing scopes still leaves any muzzleloader shooting the high BC bullets plenty capable past 300 yards. The only real way to curb that, if that is their intention, is to limit the rifles and projectiles. I can slap a Nightforce on a flintlock but that doesn’t make it a 300 yard rifle.

I see that but I know less than a handful of shooters who can actually hit something with open sights past 150 yards. It’s an entirely different skill set. Slap buckhorn sights on a 300 win mag and the percentage of guys capable of killing a deer at 500 yards drops dramatically to the point that trajectory isn’t the limiting factor.

 

[Wrench]

What projectile are you shooting to 300 yards with that twist?

495gr no excuses. I have a wedge that has my elevations pre set. I can run the sight up until the elevation I need comes in.

 

[willfrye027]

In the end I believe this restriction is more about preserving or improving “quality”. Sure, success rate may stay the same..but that success may be on a forked horn at 60 yards vs 350 cross canyon on a big buck.

Personally I can hardly see the target well enough to shoot my compound bow beyond 60 yards, no way in hell I could shoot open sights much beyond 100 yards.

If you dig deeper there are a bunch of proposals on the southern units with a variety of “test” restrictions. Some are APR, some shorter seasons, some are even NO compounds, NO inlines, and NO scopes on rifles! Pretty cool IMO. None of this will affect the overall “herd”..we need good weather for a few years to do that (and less roadkill, maybe less predators, etc). What it may do is increase some of the quality on these units and increase hunter satisfaction a little bit.

 

[dsotm]

Just keep supporting restrictions until they take everything away smh

 

[CorbLand]

Just keep supporting restrictions until they take everything away smh

Hunting has been and will continue to be preserved by implementing restrictions as needed. Self policing and support of restrictions is the only reason we have the ability to hunt today.

The fact that we can even have the disagreement of what weapons and technology we can hunt animals with is a testament to the success and foresight of those that came before us.

 

[ENCORE]

Primitive? If someone could show the group the rule book/s for the very first muzzleloader hunt, it would be appreciated.
It would be interesting to see the words, "Primitive Hunt", in the 1st year book.

 

[MallardSX2]

For the people that are interested in keeping the rules as is, I have an either or question for you. Because, at some point it's going to be one or the other. Not both.

Would you rather hunt half as much as you currently do and leave the regulations in place?
OR
Would you rather hunt as often as you currently do with iron sights? ​

 

[CorbLand]

Primitive? If someone could show the group the rule book/s for the very first muzzleloader hunt, it would be appreciated.
It would be interesting to see the words, "Primitive Hunt", in the 1st year book.

The vast majority of the Western ALW seasons for deer were in November. As rifles and hunters became more and more effective, the ALW hunts were moved to October and muzzy seasons were implemented and took their place in November.

If agencies did not intend for specific muzzy seasons because they were more primitive than rifles A) why would they have their own season? B) why would they have transitioned rifles seasons out of the rut and replaced them with muzzy seasons? C) If rifles were too effective to continue hunting deer during the rut with, why would they put something equally as effective in its place?

 

[Rich M]

Just because someone supports taking scopes off muzzleloaders doesnt mean they have to support the same on rifles or any other restrictions. It is not all or nothing. Anyone that says that is simply using that as a straw man argument.

Muzzy seasons were implemented as a primitive weapon. They were to allow another opportunity between archery and rifle season. It was to provided better draw odds for people that are willing to hunt with a weapon that is harder than a rifle and easier than a bow.

Allowing the continued drive of technology on muzzleloaders is pushing them past that primitive intent. Simply shoving the bullet down the barrel is not primitive.

Some are just saying that if we go to irons on rifles, or say limit the scopes to 4x or 6x, the long range shoot em in the knee folks go away and a diff mind set takes over.

I could see setting a straight wall regulation getting a lot of people upset but it would limit shots inside 400 yards and get folks hunting again as opposed to shooting.

I'm not promoting anything and am pretty close to being done w western hunting so just talking points, not emotions or convictions.

 

[UpTop]

I hope that they go to iron sights for all rifles and recurve bows only.

I'd be cool with that. It would get rid of most of the flat brim douchebags that post 800 yards kill shots (And wounding shots) on YouTube for the world to see.

I am not one of the guys who wants to restrict muzzleloaders so I can have a better rifle hunt.....I want to restrict all hunting weapons to lighten the pressure on the resource and make 50% of the people give it up.

Right now, it takes a NR 12 years to draw an archery Wasatch tag.....lol The Wasatch....think about that. The resource is being overhunted and overharvested by ALL weapons. I am looking forward to seeing what the new restrictions on deer do in the southern units (if they pass) for sure.

That’s the whole point though is they won’t. And at that point imo it’s just a bunch of crap. I’d love to see what you’re suggesting as well but it won’t ever happen. So until there’s a legitimately good reason to add the restriction on scoped muzzies it’s just feel good bs. Nothing more. Scoped muzzleloaders is waaaay down the list of problems needing to be looked at.

 

[ENCORE]

The vast majority of the Western ALW seasons for deer were in November. As rifles and hunters became more and more effective, the ALW hunts were moved to October and muzzy seasons were implemented and took their place in November.

If agencies did not intend for specific muzzy seasons because they were more primitive than rifles A) why would they have their own season? B) why would they have transitioned rifles seasons out of the rut and replaced them with muzzy seasons? C) If rifles were too effective to continue hunting deer during the rut with, why would they put something equally as effective in its place?

It was all about MONEY. To think different is extremely sad.