Utah DWR

[realunlucky]

Southern Utah has its own unique challenges from a management aspect. The buck to doe ratio could be 100:100 and they wouldn’t be happy down there.

Did they increase tags down there last year? It was proposed but I thought the board shut it down and left them alone.

I got a chuckle at the last Epic podcast when Jason said he doesn’t understand why the DWR keeps trying to raise tags so drastically. I thought to myself “maybe because every time they try, it gets shut down so the management plan is getting out of whack and they are trying to bring it back into balance?”

Utah is terrible at managing to the plan. They set numbers then just flat ignore them. The Cache is over the ratio and no tag increase proposed. The Nebo is over by the exact same amount. ~10% increase proposed.

You can give them the data but you can't make them understand it.

One thing that I've learned from the Rokcast episodes is believing the ways dad and grandpa taught most times are far from what the data shows.

Why keep spending the money collecting data if Utah isn't willing to use it in thier licensing models?

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[CorbLand]

You can give them the data but you can't make them understand it.

One thing that I've learned from the Rokcast episodes is believing the ways dad and grandpa taught most times are far from what the data shows.

Why keep spending the money collecting data if Utah isn't willing to use it in thier licensing models?

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I think the DWR is willing. It’s the wildlife board that isn’t.

 

[Timberline001]

Dax adressed this to, how general season is designed to be an opportunity hunt and if you want to hunt older age class bucks they are there (in fewer numbers) but just put in the work rather than whine about it.

Some units in the southern region is currently running at 24 bucks per 100 does way over what was agreed to in the mule deer management plan. Those numbers start to rival some the low tier limited entry units like Vernon and Bookcliffs

I personally like how it is now. I hunted one of those units last year after saving up 4 points. I’ll be putting my dedicated towards that unit in 2 years and hunting the 0 point archery hunt I like until then. It’s great to have the option of these higher quality hunts every couple years or hunting every single year in more opportunity managed units. It would be hard to get away from that management in Southern Utah with the history it has with big buck hunters.

 

[realunlucky]

I personally like how it is now. I hunted one of those units last year after saving up 4 points. I’ll be putting my dedicated towards that unit in 2 years and hunting the 0 point archery hunt I like until then. It’s great to have the option of these higher quality hunts every couple years or hunting every single year in more opportunity managed units. It would be hard to get away from that management in Southern Utah with the history it has with big buck hunters.

Why even have a management plan? You think in the units managed for 15 to 17 bucks those hunters didn't wish they had 22-24 bucks per 100 does also?

For every tag needlessly restricted in the southern regions CHEATS the average Utah sportsmen out of a tag and contributes to point creep in general tags. Deer populations ebb and flow in both the north and south and the resource properly managed moves hunters from where herds are struggling to places herds are currently thriving. That was the entire intent moving to individual units instead of general regions.

Data supporting that high buck to doe ratios has huge impacts fawn survival rates was released during the work shop. So these what the uneducated want is actually having a negative impact when the state is focused on trying to increase deer herds.

I support people wanting to hunt older age class bucks which is exactly why Utah has limited entry units to MANAGE to those higher ratios (they even put it in the plan) where as general seasons should remain focused on providing opportunity.

Are you currently trying to draw a limited entry deer tag or are you putting in for LE elk?




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[CorbLand]

Why even have a management plan? You think in the units managed for 15 to 17 bucks those hunters didn't wish they had 22-24 bucks per 100 does also?

For every tag needlessly restricted in the southern regions CHEATS the average Utah sportsmen out of a tag and contributes to point creep in general tags. Deer populations ebb and flow in both the north and south and the resource properly managed moves hunters from where herds are struggling to places herds are currently thriving. That was the entire intent moving to individual units instead of general regions.

Data supporting that high buck to doe ratios has huge impacts fawn survival rates was released during the work shop. So these what the uneducated want is actually having a negative impact when the state is focused on trying to increase deer herds.

I support people wanting to hunt older age class bucks which is exactly why Utah has limited entry units to MANAGE to those higher ratios (they even put it in the plan) where as general seasons should remain focused on providing opportunity.

Are you currently trying to draw a limited entry deer tag or are you putting in for LE elk?




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My theory is that everyone wants their one big deer. As LE tags have become virtually impossible to get, people are going to push to turn some of the general season units into pseudo LE units so they can get their one big deer.

In my opinion, one of the worst thing to happen to hunting in the last 15 years is the rise in nonresident hunting. Not because of nonresidents and what they do to residents but because most people only have a couple weeks of time every year. They can only manage one, maybe two hunts a year. They are applying in 5 states each year and only want to draw one, maybe two tags. So they push for the mentality of "I am willing to wait 4-5 years to hunt better bucks." They aren't willing to wait that long, they get a tag every year, they just want better bucks when they hunt that one year. They push this at the expense of the people that just want to hunt their home state/unit every year. It is going to push the average hunter out and will ultimately be the death of hunting for the average person.

 

[Timberline001]

Why even have a management plan? You think in the units managed for 15 to 17 bucks those hunters didn't wish they had 22-24 bucks per 100 does also?

For every tag needlessly restricted in the southern regions CHEATS the average Utah sportsmen out of a tag and contributes to point creep in general tags. Deer populations ebb and flow in both the north and south and the resource properly managed moves hunters from where herds are struggling to places herds are currently thriving. That was the entire intent moving to individual units instead of general regions.

Data supporting that high buck to doe ratios has huge impacts fawn survival rates was released during the work shop. So these what the uneducated want is actually having a negative impact when the state is focused on trying to increase deer herds.

I support people wanting to hunt older age class bucks which is exactly why Utah has limited entry units to MANAGE to those higher ratios (they even put it in the plan) where as general seasons should remain focused on providing opportunity.

Are you currently trying to draw a limited entry deer tag or are you putting in for LE elk?




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No ones getting cheated out of anything. There’s plenty of units you can hunt every year. There’s no reason to destroy historic units because people want to hunt a certain unit every year. I apply to LE elk because the wait isn’t as long for the type of hunt I want.

Im not looking for one big deer. I want to kill the biggest mature deer I can every year and I’m definitely not alone in that. Still learning patience to kill that quality of buck but you have to hunt the areas that give that opportunity.

 

[CorbLand]

No ones getting cheated out of anything. There’s plenty of units you can hunt every year. There’s no reason to destroy historic units because people want to hunt a certain unit every year. I apply to LE elk because the wait isn’t as long for the type of hunt I want.

Im not looking for one big deer. I want to kill the biggest mature deer I can every year and I’m definitely not alone in that. Still learning patience to kill that quality of buck but you have to hunt the areas that give that opportunity.

There is also no reason to artificially suppress tags so people can hunt bigger bucks. There is no moral superiority to killing a 200 inch buck and not a 50 inch buck.

53% of resident applicants didnt draw a tag last year, and there was less than 1% of tags left over. If the agreed upon management plan is 15-17 bucks to does and we are managing higher than that, people that just want hunt are being cheated. It wasnt what was agreed upon. If you went to work and your boss told you he would pay you 20 bucks an hour and he only paid you 19, you got cheated. This is no different.

There is no evidence showing that managing bucks to the agreed upon plan will "destroy" these units. In fact, the evidence is starting to show the opposite. The 70-80s were the hay day of S. Utah deer and the buck to doe ratio was lower than what the current plan is.

I want to kill big bucks too. I have zero interest in killing small deer, even when the freezer is empty. But I want the opportunity to do it every year. I would rather spend every year for five years trying to kill a big deer, than sit on the sideline waiting for a tag. Theres a big deer in every unit. Give me the chance to go find him. Dont worry, I wont so you have a chance at finding him too.

 

[Timberline001]

There is also no reason to artificially suppress tags so people can hunt bigger bucks. There is no moral superiority to killing a 200 inch buck and not a 50 inch buck.

53% of resident applicants didnt draw a tag last year, and there was less than 1% of tags left over. If the agreed upon management plan is 15-17 bucks to does and we are managing higher than that, people that just want hunt are being cheated. It wasnt what was agreed upon. If you went to work and your boss told you he would pay you 20 bucks an hour and he only paid you 19, you got cheated. This is no different.

There is no evidence showing that managing bucks to the agreed upon plan will "destroy" these units. In fact, the evidence is starting to show the opposite. The 70-80s were the hay day of S. Utah deer and the buck to doe ratio was lower than what the current plan is.

I want to kill big bucks too. I have zero interest in killing small deer, even when the freezer is empty. But I want the opportunity to do it every year. I would rather spend every year for five years trying to kill a big deer, than sit on the sideline waiting for a tag. Theres a big deer in every unit. Give me the chance to go find him. Dont worry, I wont so you have a chance at finding him too.

My question is, even if we do increase tag numbers in above objective units, will that have a large effect on drawing tags? With so many applicants and not enough tags there’d have to be a substantial increase in tags for people to draw every year. As it is already the number one complaint I hear from Utah residents is the number of people in the woods.

 

[CorbLand]

My question is, even if we do increase tag numbers in above objective units, will that have a large effect on drawing tags? With so many applicants and not enough tags there’d have to be a substantial increase in tags for people to draw every year. As it is already the number one complaint I hear from Utah residents is the number of people in the woods.

Proposed increase across the state is about 11% more tags. That is ~6800 more people that would get tags this year. So yes it would help people hunt. No, its not going to give everyone a tag but 6800 more people would and that is a lot of people.

Its also 6800 people that burn points, getting them out of the pool and not further pushing it higher.

I dont put much weight in the too many people in the woods comment from people. People will not be happy with the number of people out there until its them and only them. Utah use to issue 4X the number of deer tags. How are there still too many people in the woods when there are 4X less tags? Either people are just going to complain or people are going to go deer hunting with someone that does draw. Either way, tag reductions will not solve that problem.

 

[Timberline001]

Proposed increase across the state is about 11% more tags. That is ~6800 more people that would get tags this year. So yes it would help people hunt. No, its not going to give everyone a tag but 6800 more people would and that is a lot of people.

Its also 6800 people that burn points, getting them out of the pool and not further pushing it higher.

I dont put much weight in the too many people in the woods comment from people. People will not be happy with the number of people out there until its them and only them. Utah use to issue 4X the number of deer tags. How are there still too many people in the woods when there are 4X less tags? Either people are just going to complain or people are going to go deer hunting with someone that does draw. Either way, tag reductions will not solve that problem.

I’ve never personally seen the crowded hunt people in Utah complain about. My little sister draws the rifle hunt every year in a popular unit as a youth. We have yet to run into another hunter in 3 years hunting the last 3 days of season every year. I agree another 6800 spread among the state wouldn’t be bad. I feel that with the new muzzleloader regulations it wouldn’t be hard to add that many tags as long as a few more rifle and archery tags.

I apologize. When I hear people complaining about tag numbers I assume they want to hunt the best units every year.

 

[CorbLand]

I’ve never personally seen the crowded hunt people in Utah complain about. My little sister draws the rifle hunt every year in a popular unit as a youth. We have yet to run into another hunter in 3 years hunting the last 3 days of season every year. I agree another 6800 spread among the state wouldn’t be bad. I feel that with the new muzzleloader regulations it wouldn’t be hard to add that many tags as long as a few more rifle and archery tags.

I apologize. When I hear people complaining about tag numbers I assume they want to hunt the best units every year.

I dont see it either. I rarely hunt the rifle tag because there are a lot more people that hunt it but its not crowded. Get away from the road and you wont see many people, at least where I hunt.

I have made the suggestion to the DWR many times that they need to increase the allocation for archery hunts because the success rate is low. It would let more people hunt and not kill that many more deer. I like the muzzy season but I apply for archery because the chance of getting a tag is higher.

Where I hunt in Utah, when I started you could get a rifle tag every other year, with a shot at one every year and archery had left over tags every year. In 8 years, you dont have a shot at a rifle tag under three points and archery is one point with a shot at one with zero. But that shot is very, very low. Now, winters and drought have taken their toll but the hunting is not any better than it was 8 years ago.

My opinion on management will always lean towards the guys that shoot two points. I am the outlier that wants to kill big bucks. They are the back bone of hunting.

 

[realunlucky]

No ones getting cheated out of anything. There’s plenty of units you can hunt every year. There’s no reason to destroy historic units because people want to hunt a certain unit every year. I apply to LE elk because the wait isn’t as long for the type of hunt I want.

Im not looking for one big deer. I want to kill the biggest mature deer I can every year and I’m definitely not alone in that. Still learning patience to kill that quality of buck but you have to hunt the areas that give that opportunity.

It's OK not to agree, I get it, everyone has thier own perspectives. Who doesn't want to hunt general units managed to the same standard as limited entry units. Quality vs Quantity the trade off has always been waiting for tags.

Limiting tag numbers limits OPPORTUNITY so when the point of general season hunts is OPPORTUNITY people are getting cheated out of being able to get a deer tag and get out in the field. There are more people wanting to hunt than there are tags in every single unit in Utah.

The system in place allows for public commenting on the state wide deer management plan which is good for 5 years. The current plan was approved and should be the standard all management strategies are measured against. The time for saying we will manage to 24 bucks to 100 does in these units has passed. It should be a criminal offense for the wildlife board to try and supersede the manadated process. No one wants to have "thier unit" bear the brunt of hunting pressure. That's why there is a plan put in place before hand to wieght all the variables and have multiple points of view.

Point is having more tags doesn't destroy anything in fact the data shows the status quo is likely having a more negative impact to the deer herd than managing to lower buck to doe ratios.

Be interesting to see how the new state wide management plan looks after all the working committees have thier input.

Appreciate the good conversation.

 

[Timberline001]

It's OK not to agree, I get it, everyone has thier own perspectives. Who doesn't want to hunt general units managed to the same standard as limited entry units. Quality vs Quantity the trade off has always been waiting for tags.

Limiting tag numbers limits OPPORTUNITY so when the point of general season hunts is OPPORTUNITY people are getting cheated out of being able to get a deer tag and get out in the field. There are more people wanting to hunt than there are tags in every single unit in Utah.

The system in place allows for public commenting on the state wide deer management plan which is good for 5 years. The current plan was approved and should be the standard all management strategies are measured against. The time for saying we will manage to 24 bucks to 100 does in these units has passed. It should be a criminal offense for the wildlife board to try and supersede the manadated process. No one wants to have "thier unit" bear the brunt of hunting pressure. That's why there is a plan put in place before hand to wieght all the variables and have multiple points of view.

Point is having more tags doesn't destroy anything in fact the data shows the status quo is likely having a more negative impact to the deer herd than managing to lower buck to doe ratios.

Be interesting to see how the new state wide management plan looks after all the working committees have thier input.

Appreciate the good conversation.

Same to you

 

[CorbLand]

Same to you

Appreciate the good conversation.

I will ditto this as well. We are all the hunters that have different views on management. There are way bigger tragedies in the world.

 

[Timberline001]

I agree. I hunt 2-4 states every year and have a 10 year application plan. I always tend to think towards that state of mind and less towards the average hunter who only hunts their own state and is okay with shooting the first buck they see. I hold nothing against those hunters, I just tend to forget they are probably the majority and the most important group.

 

[CorbLand]

I agree. I hunt 2-4 states every year and have a 10 year application plan. I always tend to think towards that state of mind and less towards the average hunter who only hunts their own state and is okay with shooting the first buck they see. I hold nothing against those hunters, I just tend to forget they are probably the majority and the most important group.

It happens to us all. I forget that there are people that actually enjoy hunting elk.

 

[Elkangle]

It just seems like a pendulum anymore...one moment guys are saying tech is killing all the bucks...next moment we are saving too many bucks..doesnt exactly make any sense..this will never end as guys will never take responsibility for there lack of success... you don't kill bucks because of...you...and no one else.

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

Southern Utah has its own unique challenges from a management aspect. The buck to doe ratio could be 100:100 and they wouldn’t be happy down there.

Did they increase tags down there last year? It was proposed but I thought the board shut it down and left them alone.

I got a chuckle at the last Epic podcast when Jason said he doesn’t understand why the DWR keeps trying to raise tags so drastically. I thought to myself “maybe because every time they try, it gets shut down so the management plan is getting out of whack and they are trying to bring it back into balance?”

Utah is terrible at managing to the plan. They set numbers then just flat ignore them. The Cache is over the ratio and no tag increase proposed. The Nebo is over by the exact same amount. ~10% increase proposed.

They did increase tags down south last year. It wasn't as much as they initially planned so they cut it back and compromised. Also, I don't think anyone thinks there should be tag increases on the cache. It was slammed by the winter of 22-23. Just ask @Travis Hobbs he knows that unit well.

 

[Timberline001]

They did increase tags down south last year. It wasn't as much as they initially planned so they cut it back and compromised. Also, I don't think anyone thinks there should be tag increases on the cache. It was slammed by the winter of 22-23. Just ask @Travis Hobbs he knows that unit well.

I agree on the Cache. While Buck to doe is an important measurement it’s definitely not the only number to take into consideration with management. Especially after a winter like last year. I’d be shocked though if Cache still has that high of a buck to doe ratio. Their winter kill was worse than ours here in East Canyon and we lost a lot of our bucks and I’ve seen a significantly lower buck to doe ratio here since.

 

[Travis Hobbs]

On the cache population, yes, it’s bad….its the worst I have ever seen it….. Morgan South Rich, East Canyon even worse…

But it’s a sad state of affairs everywhere in N Utah, SE Idaho and W Wyoming.

That tri-state area was the epicenter for winter kill last year, and got crushed just prior. I didn’t think it could get much worse after 16/17 winter, I was wrong. Didn’t think it was possible to get worse.

Saying all of that, I think the current buck to doe ratios are right in line with what I think they are throughout the various units I have spent time in post hunt (without actually counting )

There just isn’t many deer, period.

In my opinion, significant cutting of tags isn’t going to help them recover. When the population goes down, so does hunter success and so does participation.

If people want to hunt in those areas crushed by winter…..let them come and spend a week enjoying it, I don’t think it hurts anything.

There will still be a few big bucks too, just damn few of them