Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

[Thegman]

For those loading long with windowed mags, what kind of velocity and loads are you working with? I ran my regular gasser loads for initial testing and break in and had my 16” Shaw portless barrel around the 2700-2725 range with 77 tmk. Loaded a pressure ladder with Lever yesterday at 2.350” and 25.4-26.6 went 2802-2927 which is smokin! Big jump in velocity from 26-26.3 grains indicating possible pressure but no other signs.

Wow, that's fast. I don't think I get those speeds with LVR @26ish grains. Usually in the low 2,700s like your other loads.

I windowed my first mag a couple weeks ago and have some of @KyleR1985 s LVR loads worked up I'll try to test today.

 

[KyleR1985]

For those loading long with windowed mags, what kind of velocity and loads are you working with? I ran my regular gasser loads for initial testing and break in and had my 16” Shaw portless barrel around the 2700-2725 range with 77 tmk. Loaded a pressure ladder with Lever yesterday at 2.350” and 25.4-26.6 went 2802-2927 which is smokin! Big jump in velocity from 26-26.3 grains indicating possible pressure but no other signs.

Went down similar road - I would not keep shooting the 2900FPS + load - especially in an AR. It's very hot.


Not sure what brass you're using or it's capacity.


At that OAL, regardless of brass, you're probably well past the pressure limitations of an AR at the 2800fps load.


What brass are you using? Have you measured H20 capacity of it?


What temperature was it on your range day? did you fire a lot of rounds sitting in chamber for a while?

 

[KyleR1985]

If you're seeing 2900fps in a 16" .223 barrel, you're probably around 80kspi chamber pressure.

 

[Jesseb]

It was 52F yesterday morning. The pressure ladder was the first 5 shots of the day and never left them in the chamber longer than maybe 5-10 seconds. Just long enough to run the bolt and get back on target. Didn’t care too much about accuracy since it was a pressure ladder. I am using once fired and resized LC brass. I ran H4895 to 24 grains at the same 2.350 and got a highest velocity of 2752. That one showed slightly flattened primers. The high velocity and jump at 26 grains of lever kinda told me that was my max. Primers looked totally fine all the way up to 26.6. I will load more and bump up to 2.365” and try .2 grain increments with 26 as a max. I was figuring anything over 2700 would be perfect. Lever always showed magic velocity in my grendels as well. My load in my 18” gasser is 23.2 grains 8208xbr, 2.270” for 2750. Gonna try some 8208 at the longer coal as well and see how high I can take it. I already ran it up to 23.8 but at 2.310” and was getting 2717 average with an SD of 11 with this 16” Shaw portless.

 

[Jesseb]

If you're seeing 2900fps in a 16" .223 barrel, you're probably around 80kspi chamber pressure.

I hear you but my xbr and H4895 loads show more pressure signs even at 150-200fps slower velocity. That’s why I was asking for others experience with Lever in particular. Brass and primers look perfect and recoil even felt a bit more tame(not that that is any real indicator) I was shocked when I saw 2800 for my starting load which made me a bit nervous so I inspected brass real close before I chambered and fired the next round. what kind of velocity are you getting out of Lever loaded long? And what is the max charge you have tried? What barrel? I saw plenty of reports of guys running well into the 26’s with Lever and in my experience with Grendel’s I can run quite a bit more than xbr so I was willing to push on.

 

[Jesseb]

Just looked at my bottle of Lever and it was produced in 2014(actually produced on my birthday). This bottle is almost gone and is my last bottle from this lot #. It’ll be interesting to see what the next lot does. They are all 2021 manufacturer.

 

[KyleR1985]

I hear you but my xbr and H4895 loads show more pressure signs even at 150-200fps slower velocity. That’s why I was asking for others experience with Lever in particular. Brass and primers look perfect and recoil even felt a bit more tame(not that that is any real indicator) I was shocked when I saw 2800 for my starting load which made me a bit nervous so I inspected brass real close before I chambered and fired the next round. what kind of velocity are you getting out of Lever loaded long? And what is the max charge you have tried? What barrel? I saw plenty of reports of guys running well into the 26’s with Lever and in my experience with Grendel’s I can run quite a bit more than xbr so I was willing to push on.

In my ULUL - 16” BCA 26.3gr lever at 2.375” is where I landed for accuracy. 30.5 h2o capacity LC brass. I didn’t chrono it. I did chrono 2.35” 26.5gr lever @ 2750, and 2.375” 26.5gr lever @ 2740. I’m guessing the above load is around 2720fps.


In the Howa mini, at 2.42”, see results:



Heavy bolt lift at 27gr. Stiff at 26.7.

I have the same load I landed on for my ULUL loaded up for the mini and next range trip (2.375” 26.3gr). It would be nice if it shoots as well in the mini, I’ll load hundreds!

 

[Jesseb]

Just loaded up more and headed out to shoot. If I don’t report back, I finally managed to blow my face off. I did notice I was at about .004 neck tension yesterday so I adjusted that to .002 for today. I also loaded a pressure ladder with 8208xbr from 23.4-24.2 @ 2.365. We shall see….

 

[KyleR1985]

Just loaded up more and headed out to shoot. If I don’t report back, I finally managed to blow my face off. I did notice I was at about .004 neck tension yesterday so I adjusted that to .002 for today. I also loaded a pressure ladder with 8208xbr from 23.4-24.2 @ 2.365. We shall see….

Interested to see what you get. I just ordered an 8lb jug of 8208 for my Dasher Mini, knowing I can use it in the ARC and .223 if it strikes me.


Haha I certainly wasn't trying to be the fun police. I just know that velocity = pressure. And 2900fps is screaming from a 16" .223. I'm surprised it didn't feel hotter in the AR ULUL platform. The howa mini was even pretty jumpy.

 

[Jesseb]

Well, my male modeling career is no more worse for wear. I forgot my target so I had to improvise with a shot up piece of plywood I found. I loaded up 3 rounds each with Lever and then a 5 shot ladder with 8208. For reference, I typically see 100-200fps more with heavies in my grendels than I do with 8208 reading pressure signs for each. The Grendel in a gas gun will speak to you. I have been loading and shooting the Grendel for over 15 years and have never blown a primer or broken a bolt. 4 or 5 different barrels and thousands of rounds. I used this same lot of Lever yesterday to get 123 eldm to 2760 with accuracy around 2740 and the 130 tmk to 2600 but accuracy wasn’t there. I run 8208xbr with the tmk @ 2500 for my accuracy load. This is out of a 22” gasser with adjustable gas block, heavy buffer and flat wire spring. Now, back to my 16” Shaw portless barrel

Range temp 54F with 6-7mph cross wind.

77tmk LC brass BR4 primer 2.365” coal .002 neck tension
25.4
Avg 2786
Sd 24 es 44
25.6
Avg 2853
Sd 31 es 62
25.8
Avg 2854
Sd 21 es 40
26
Avg 2886 (high of 2908)
Sd 21 es 42
Going from 2.350 to 2.365” and lighter neck tension seemed to bring it down a little but not much. Last shot at 26 was a tiny bit sticky to extract. All brass and primers looked great. 25.8 shot the best at just under moa for 3 shots. 26 opened up. 25.4 shot into a shot up area of the target so not sure how it did. I think it may have actually done better. I adjusted the scope to hit the 3” orange targets after that round. Sd and es pretty crappy all around.

25.8 load


Now for 8208xbr
77tmk LC brass BR4 primer 2.365” coal .002 neck tension
23.4 2690
23.6 2706
23.8 2724
24 2769
24.2 2784

All brass looked fine. Extraction super easy for all. The 23.8 load was looking really good at 2.310” and oddly within 2fps when I went to 2.365”. I was expecting velocity to drop a bit more and allow me to run a higher charge. Note the velocity jump from 23.8 to 24. Not terrible, but noticeable. The jump from 24 to 24.2 was in line with the rest. Thinking I will pursue 8208 further simply for its temp stability. It has always been my go to with the Grendel even with the slightly lower velocity.

8208 pressure ladder

 

[Thegman]

@Jesseb , that's crazy velocity with the LVR. You must have the magic lot of LVR! I'll try to get to my @KyleR1985 LVR load later today and get back. From everything I've seen, I don't think mine will be close to what you're getting, even at slightly higher charges. I've loaded 26 grains under 77TMKs and 75 ELD-M and haven't seen that from mine. I'll be interested hearing what your next lot of LVR does.

Years ago, when I was first messing with LVR, I found it was kind of like this with my 308 and 168s, but not really with other bullet weights...???

 

[Jesseb]

I would be interested to see what any of you have gotten from other powders. Using other powders, I don’t think my barrel is unusually fast or that my magnetospeed is off. Load for load this 16” portless barrel is about 25-30fps slower than my 18” gasser. My magnetospeed has always been about 10fps faster than my regular ole school chronograph which should put it about spot on being 3” from the muzzle vs 10ft.

If this is a magic lot of LVR than I will be crying soon. I only have enough for a few more loads. I sold a bunch from this lot a couple years ago and now I am kicking myself. I may have to load a ladder with the newer stuff I have and see what it does. Honestly, if I can get any of the 8208 loads to shoot good, I would be totally happy with anything around 2750fps.

 

[KyleR1985]

I would be interested to see what any of you have gotten from other powders. Using other powders, I don’t think my barrel is unusually fast or that my magnetospeed is off. Load for load this 16” portless barrel is about 25-30fps slower than my 18” gasser. My magnetospeed has always been about 10fps faster than my regular ole school chronograph which should put it about spot on being 3” from the muzzle vs 10ft.

If this is a magic lot of LVR than I will be crying soon. I only have enough for a few more loads. I sold a bunch from this lot a couple years ago and now I am kicking myself. I may have to load a ladder with the newer stuff I have and see what it does. Honestly, if I can get any of the 8208 loads to shoot good, I would be totally happy with anything around 2750fps.

I’ve shot Varget and Lever in .223. Will have data on Xterm, h335, and 8208 in the next couple of weeks.

That said, I can’t come up with any way to explain 2900fps from 26gr lever in a 16” barrel with 77tmk other than a lot of chamber pressure. Knowing what I know about quickload and its relation to what I observe shooting, the load you’re shooting should be in the 2750-2800 range tops. That it’s 2900 is a little spooky.

have you measured case capacity of your LC brass? Mine averages 30.5gr water.

 

[Jesseb]

Fired case measure 31.3gr. I am not the least bit worried about pressure honestly. LVR has always been faster than 8208 in the grendels. The whole reason I tried it here was because of the number of reports of how much faster it is in the 223. The fact that I am 100-150fps faster than 8208 seems reasonable, at least for this lot of powder. I am running about 2 grains more LVR than 8208 and in the Grendels, I typically run about 3 grains more, so again, seems reasonable. I will try to go shoot a ladder with this newer lot tomorrow.

 

[Stocky]

Anyone able to let me know the length of an one of these with a 16 inch barrel is? Might try get one imported. LOP would be handy also.

 

[Thegman]

Anyone able to let me know the length of an one of these with a 16 inch barrel is? Might try get one imported. LOP would be handy also.

About 34 inches with a 16" barrel, an A2 stock and a Farrowtech stock piece.

 

[Thegman]

I’ve shot Varget and Lever in .223. Will have data on Xterm, h335, and 8208 in the next couple of weeks.

That said, I can’t come up with any way to explain 2900fps from 26gr lever in a 16” barrel with 77tmk other than a lot of chamber pressure. Knowing what I know about quickload and its relation to what I observe shooting, the load you’re shooting should be in the 2750-2800 range tops. That it’s 2900 is a little spooky.

have you measured case capacity of your LC brass? Mine averages 30.5gr water.

You're using LC so your capacity should be the same as mine. My first thought was a chronograph issue, but your other velocities look pretty similar to mine where I've used the same powders, so I don't think that's the issue.

My second WAG was that you found a combination in your rifle that was like what I saw with LVR in my 308 with 168s. I haven't looked at my notes, but I recall those were close to 100 fps faster than any other 168 load I tried. Strange thing was that I didn't see it with 150s or 180s, just 168s...but...reloading can be weird.

 

[Thegman]

Fired case measure 31.3gr. I am not the least bit worried about pressure honestly. LVR has always been faster than 8208 in the grendels. The whole reason I tried it here was because of the number of reports of how much faster it is in the 223. The fact that I am 100-150fps faster than 8208 seems reasonable, at least for this lot of powder. I am running about 2 grains more LVR than 8208 and in the Grendels, I typically run about 3 grains more, so again, seems reasonable. I will try to go shoot a ladder with this newer lot tomorrow.

Didn't have much time, but two rounds just averaged 2,700 from my BCA barrel. That's LC14 brass, CCI 41, 77TMK, 26.3 gr LVR @ 2.370" (max length that would fit in my mag well). Case expansion and primers look fine, but wouldn't normally push it too much more than that. Maybe I should and see what happens. I could, just usually don't.

 

[KyleR1985]

Didn't have much time, but two rounds just averaged 2,700 from my BCA barrel. That's LC14 brass, CCI 41, 77TMK, 26.3 gr LVR @ 2.370" (max length that would fit in my mag well). Case expansion and primers look fine, but wouldn't normally push it too much more than that. Maybe I should and see what happens. I could, just usually don't.

This is exactly the result I’d expect.

 

[JJ3]

I too was thinking I might prefer right side charging. Especially for off hand shooting, but find the lightweight nature of these builds makes it a non issue and now I am glad I went with left side charging. Stay in the glass, on target with hand on the grip.

Thanks for the input guys. This makes sense. Finishing up a 11.5 bolt gun build now and gather parts for one of these.