UL fuel efficient cook system

[Dobermann]

Has anyone compared the Fire Maple Hornet II to a Soto Windmaster?

I'm primarily interested in durability, and performance in minor wind.

[EDIT: Disregard. I then went down a rabbit hole, below. Short version is that Hornet II is nowhere near as good. As you were...]

 

[Dobermann]

This thread has got me going down the rabbit hole on lightweight stoves, and especially heat exchange pots.

I haven't read all 15 pages of the thread yet, but here are some of the other articles, sites, etc that I've come across that have had some useful information. Not saying they're all perfect; just some reference points:

Upright Canister Stove Reviews, StoveBench Tests, and Gear Guide - Backpacking Light

This article features upright canister stove reviews that include extensive test data in inclement conditions and market analysis.

backpackinglight.com

Best Heat Exchanger Pot For Backpacking Ultralight 2025

This buyer's guide will help you find the best heat exchanger pot for backpacking. Ultralight and fuel efficient, perfect for boiling water.

www.adventurealan.com

Best Backpacking Stove Systems 2025 Fast Light Efficient

These are the fastest boiling, most fuel efficient, most cold and wind resistant backpacking stove systems for basic food prep.

www.adventurealan.com

SuperStove For Optimal Backcountry Cooking

A SuperStove combines a pressure regulated, wind resistant, high BTU burner with a heat exchanger pot. FrankenStove is the best version.

www.adventurealan.com

Canister Topped Stove Performance in the Wind - Backpacking Light

I just compiled a bunch of photos and videos of various canister topped stoves operating in my wind tunnel. The visuals provide a bit of insight with respect to fuel...

backpackinglight.com

Firemaple Petrel Pot Review: Ultralight, Effective, Requires Filing

Firemaple Petrel Pot G3 is ultralight and perfect for solo use. We boil tested it against others. It's effective but requires filing to remove sharpness.

www.adventurealan.com

This piece has some nice history and comparisons: https://threepointsofthecompass.com/2023/06/03/gear-talk-heat-exchanger-pots/

And if you really want to get into the weeds:

https://backpackinglight.com/heat-exchanger-pot-test-hx-haa-caffin/

and this one - from 2017, so not sure if all of the issues raised then are relevant for today's designs ... but their 296 comments is enough to rival some of the best Rokslide threads!: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/pots-with-heat-exchangers/

 

[Dobermann]

About 75% of the way into this rabbit hole, and I'm currently leaning towards the Fire Maple G2 Petrel plus Soto Windmaster combination.

A couple of sources about this combination here:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums...ement-for-the-sterno-inferno/page/3/#comments

And: https://threepointsofthecompass.com...l-heat-exchanger-pot-and-stove-compatibility/

Note that there are two Fire Maple Petrels - the older, skinner G3, and the newer, wider, more efficient (and slightly heavier) G2.

Some info on the G2 here from Jon Fong of Flat Cat Gear:

And a comparison chart by Fire Maple here:



And for anyone curious, Fire Maple is a brand name of Deer Maple ... looks like they may make the Olicamp XTS pot that was in Aron's video from a few months back. Some history about the company is here: https://threepointsofthecompass.com/2023/02/18/gear-talk-fire-maple-hornet-ii-stove/

 

[Dobermann]

And here's a quick overview of the Soto Windmaster + Fire Maple (in this video, the G3) that I later found by Jon Fong:

Note that in the video in the previous post, he shows how the G2 (wider/newer/fits the larger iso canisters) was more efficient in non-windy conditions, but the original G3 (narrower/only nests the smaller iso canisters) was better in wind, as there was less open space for wind to get around the flame.

Interestingly, while he specialises in making lightweight windscreens for stoves, he says that the combination of the Soto Windmaster plus Fire Maple Petrel (both G2 and G3) pretty much precludes the need for a screen - the Windmaster puts the flame closer to the pot than many other burners, and the Petrels have three slots cut into the HX base that the Windmaster stove supports fit into - so the base of the stove provides its own windscreen.

In practice, this is similar to the benefits of the MSR Reactor (although both the burner and the heat exchange design are more efficient on that, at a weight penalty).

I'll keep researching, but the Windmaster + Petrel so far looks like the best lightweight approximation of the Reactor that I've found so far ...

 

[HighUintas]

@Dobermann , have you checked out flatcats cheetah windscreen setups and his testing? I think one of those is likely the ultimate for a lightweight and wind/fuel efficiency standpoint. I have a an old jetboil flash pot i cut down to hold a bit over 2cups and used it with a brs3000 last fall. I had to use a thin aluminum ring to cover the HX fins so that the burner supports would sit on that and not flame quench itself. I got pretty good efficiency but it is lacking in the wind.

I have been considering getting his cheetah windscreen for the fire maple pot paired with the correct stove he sells and that would work with my pot. It would be killer in the wind. The only downside is the need to disassemble the stove each time to be able to stow the windscreen.

 

[Dobermann]

@Dobermann , have you checked out flatcats cheetah windscreen setups and his testing? I think one of those is likely the ultimate for a lightweight and wind/fuel efficiency standpoint. I have a an old jetboil flash pot i cut down to hold a bit over 2cups and used it with a brs3000 last fall. I had to use a thin aluminum ring to cover the HX fins so that the burner supports would sit on that and not flame quench itself. I got pretty good efficiency but it is lacking in the wind.

I have been considering getting his cheetah windscreen for the fire maple pot paired with the correct stove he sells and that would work with my pot. It would be killer in the wind. The only downside is the need to disassemble the stove each time to be able to stow the windscreen.

Thanks! I've only been on this research mission today (!), and had seen him post that he had something that would work, but not a dedicated item - so good to know the Cheetah would work.

Personally, I'm hoping to not have to use a windscreen. I have Reactors, and just looking for something that will be more lightweight in more moderate winds - and, like you, don't want to have to mess with it too much on set-up and pack-down ... so far, the Soto Windmaster plus Fire Maple Petrels (either G2 or G3) look like a good pairing.

The Adventure Allan links above also look at a few other combinations, but I like how the Petrels drop down onto the Windmaster's Tri-flex, mostly obviating the need for a windscreen.

 

[HighUintas]

Thanks! I've only been on this research mission today (!), and had seen him post that he had something that would work, but not a dedicated item - so good to know the Cheetah would work.

Personally, I'm hoping to not have to use a windscreen. I have Reactors, and just looking for something that will be more lightweight in more moderate winds - and, like you, don't want to have to mess with it too much on set-up and pack-down ... so far, the Soto Windmaster plus Fire Maple Petrels (either G2 or G3) look like a good pairing.

The Adventure Allan links above also look at a few other combinations, but I like how the Petrels drop down onto the Windmaster's Tri-flex, mostly obviating the need for a windscreen.

I'll have to take a look at those videos.

I don't really want to mess with a windscreen I have to disassemble the stove to stow (it looks very easy and fast) but it could be beneficial depending on the hunt you're doing.

Every October I do a 9-10 day backpack hunt . It can be windy in that area and last year was the first year I used my lightweight setup. It did fairly poorly in the wind and I worked hard to block it with objects. I was only out for 5 days, so I didn't get to see if I'd have had enough fuel left. I know it would have extremely close. So, a windscreen setup is valuable in that situation

 

[Idaboy]

I run the soto and the maple exchanger. The Olicamp pot I didn't like as much...you can just buy some Ti foil and then drill out a bunch holes. It's small and will roll up and fit down in your kit, you can use as needed for alot of wind above tree line. Just be aware to much wind screen and you'll choke out the O2

 

[Dobermann]

I'll have to take a look at those videos.

I don't really want to mess with a windscreen I have to disassemble the stove to stow (it looks very easy and fast) but it could be beneficial depending on the hunt you're doing.

Every October I do a 9-10 day backpack hunt . It can be windy in that area and last year was the first year I used my lightweight setup. It did fairly poorly in the wind and I worked hard to block it with objects. I was only out for 5 days, so I didn't get to see if I'd have had enough fuel left. I know it would have extremely close. So, a windscreen setup is valuable in that situation

I finally just got to watch all of Part 4 of Gear Skeptic's "Backpacking Stove Efficiency" (intro to HX stoves and testing indoors) video. His results weren't great across the board for the Fire Maple Petrel G3 (the earlier, tall and skinny model).

He makes the point that wider stoves tend to do better in general, so would be interesting to see how the G2 (wider) does.

However, one thing that really stood out from that video was just how efficient the Jetboil Stash pot was - it seemed to perform best in most of his testing and there's some pretty incredible graphs in that video. The main one was that the Stash seemed to have the same kind of performance whether set to low, medium, or high settings:



On the one hand, this might suggest why the Stash comes with an unregulated burner. On the other hand, paired with an MSR PRD or Soto Windmaster, you might get more control over fire output to deal with conditions, while retaining same heating efficiency. I don't think this point was explicitly in his video, and seems like a fascinating issue to investigate more.

This correlates with the (less scientific, but more field conditions) findings from Adventure Allan, where they suggest the Stash pot and MSR PRD are the overall most effective system.

Gear Skeptic also showed lower efficiencies for burners that were closer to the pot - something that Jon Fong wondered about - although he pointed out that this was in windless conditions and may change in the field.

So I'm holding off on ordering the Windburner + Fire Maple/s for now, until I do more research.

Oh, and Gear Skeptic just dropped Part 5 of the Backpacking Stove Efficiency series - "HX in the wind". Standby ...

 

[Dobermann]

Okay, from Gear Skeptic's Part 5 above, the Stash plus its burner failed to boil water at 5pmh and 7 mph, whether on medium or high flame setting. Bear in mind the Stash doesn't have a regulator; he was running the gas through a separate system and then through the burner. In any case, the most effective setting was on medium:


Pretrel G3 + Windmaster performed well in the wind (better than the Stash plus its burner - but would be great to have a comparison of the Stash + Windmaster). His graph of Petrel G3 on high flame with different wind speeds:




And his "efficiency profile" shows that modulating from low to medium to high flame in corresponding winds is most efficient with this set-up:



However, in no wind, it was more efficient to raise the Petrel up on top of the Windmaster arms. This gives the following effeciency profile:



I'll leave it here for this post, but will see if he has some final comparisons / conclusions.

 

[Dobermann]

Okay, last post in the string (hopefully!):

While the Petrel G3 (remember not G2, which I'd expect to do better) was one of the least-performing in no to low wind, it did well in higher wind.

This slide shows how its performance in high wind is not massively different from a Reactor (1.38 grams per boil increase) - but for far less weight:



So at high wind, the Reactor gets 17 boils per 110g can to the G3's 14:




And then compare system weights - broadly, the Petrel G2 is not massively heavier than the Stash (which can't boil with wind - at least with its supplied burner), but is far lighter than the Reactor:



He makes the point "Just how hard it is for fuel efficiency to overcome system weight".

In that context, I personally would love to see some comparative testing between the Stash pot + Soto Windmaster and Petrel G2 (not the model he used) + Windmaster.

As one starting point, all of his data (including all of the graphs above, and a lot more) is included in this file: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/opi8...eqnkl1kfli5gs3d5z6s32ylq&e=1&st=fepwkvl8&dl=0

And he also gives a calculator where you can plug in weights to do your own system + gas weight comparisons:


This allows you to see how many more boils of water are required to make up for overall sytem weight. For example, here's a lightweight pot comared with a Reactor:



And the same lightweight system compared with a G3 Petrel and Windmaster:


On the face of it, this argues for non-HX systems for overall system + fuel weights. However, ability to boil quickly, in quantity, etc need to be weighed up. One of his videos (possily #4) also shows the efficiency of the Reactor on a second boil due to latent heat - yet another variable.

All up? If I want bomproof, I think I'll stick with my Reactor. But I'm keen to test the Jetboil Stash pot and the Fire Maple Petrel G2 (wider, more efficient than G3) pot, with both using a Soto Windmaster ... for almost half the weight saved compared to a Reactor, and *approaching* the same performance (not saying they're the same), this could be a pretty "sweet spot" way to go.

 

[Dobermann]

Okay ... ONE last post for now, just to compare the system (pot + burner) x boil efficiency of the Petrel G3 (600 ml) and the MSR Reactor 1L. Using both Gear Skeptic's data, of boil time difference at 7MPH wind of just 1.3g per boil, and his calculator, shows that you'd need 115 extra boils to break even on total system weight with a Reactor - or about 700 g extra of fuel.



And while the Petrel G3 didn't fare well against the other systems for straight fuel efficiency at 0 wind, here's the system x weight comparison for the G3 vs Reactor, at medium flame:


Gear Skeptic provides all of his raw data in that spreadsheet, so you can compare whichever combination of stoves, flame settings, wind conditions (either out of what he tested, or use the calculator with your own data).

One final point - even though I keep saying I'd like to see this teseting with the Fire Maple G2 (Fire Maple state that the G2 increases "the heat-exchange area by 55.8% and the heating area by 45.6%"), I just remembered that Jon Fong in the video posted ealier showed that while the G2 was more efficient in calm conditions, the G3 actually perforned better in his testing with an 8MPH wind (his test is based on 500 ml of water vs Gear Skeptic's 415 ml (?from memory):

 

[Dobermann]

During this stove deep-dive, I chanced across the following YouTube video showing various pots and how to store a Soto Windmaster in them ... came across this bit, subtitled "Let me show you some trick" that I thought some here might appreciate. I won't give it away - the below link is for the right timestamp, and it's only 1 minute long from there, but might be something some of you want to play with:

 

[Dobermann]

For anyone else interested in experimenting with the Jetboil Stash pot and Soto Windmaster, there's some useful info in this thread, including how to source just the Stash pot and not have to buy the whole system:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/11kgb5l/my_almost_perfect_cooking_system_12_persons

And here: https://backpackinglight.com/forums...with-stash-pot-and-comparison-to-gearskeptic/

 

[Dobermann]

Don't be tempted to buy the Fire Maple 1L pot, it is not the same as the Star X1 and is not as efficient as the Star X1.

Hi @BBob, am guessing you mean here the Fire Maple FMC-XK6 (the same model that Deer Maple / Fire Maple make as the Olicamp XTS)?

I'm currently in the weeds on HX stoves, currently leaning towards the Fire Maple Petrel G2, G3, or Jet Boil Stash ... but do you see any current role for the Fire Maple FMC-XK6 / Olicamp XTS with the other options we now have available? The main value I can see is that it's a full liter capacity, and not sure we have a good option for that in a stand-alone HX pot yet ...

From Fire Maple's photos, it looks like the Star X1 pot could be used separately from the burner with that system ... have you seen any comparative weights and performance data for the Star X1 compared to the FMC-XK6 / Olicamp XTS?

[Edit: I found this video by Jon, where he cuts weight from the X1: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/fire-maple-star-1-hx-system-weight-hack/. He weighs the pot, lid, and burner for 15.8 oz, gives the burner weight as 6.8 oz, so the pot and lid must be 9 oz / 255 g.

That weight of 9 oz / 255 g for the X1 also includes a sleeve. I didn't see a weight just for the X1 sleeve on the Fire Maple site, but they state the weight for the G2 sleeve as 0.66 oz / 18.8 g. (In the video, Jon says the sleeve weights 'about an ounce', so that should be about right.) With the pots being a similar size, I'm assuming the sleeve on the X1 and G2 would be pretty much the same weight.

If so, removing the sleeve (to keep the comparison equal, but also as I think I saw Jon Fong and some others said in their testing that sleeves didn't make much difference), that would give a rough weight for the X1 pot and lid without sleeve as 8.34 oz / 236 g.

This compares to Fire Maple's stated weight for the FMC-XK6 of 6.7 oz / 190 g. The FMC-XK6 (or Olicamp XTS) is only 1 oz more than the G3 (5.7 oz / 162 g), and .2 oz more than the G2 (6.5 oz / 184 g), but has a stated capacity of 1 L vs either 600 or 750 ml.

So that seems like a comparatively small increase in weight from either Petrel to the FMC-XK6 / XTS for a significant increase in volume (and a better amount for two people). But the X1 is significantly heavier than the FMC-XK6.

Unless I've got those weights wrong (interpolating from Jon's video and using the G2 sleeve weight), have you seen anything about the performance of the X1 vs the FMC-XK6 that would justify that weight difference?]

[2nd edit, to keep this all together - I saw this post later in the thread above:


But that was it for that thread. I'm not a member of that forum, but a quick search engine check using that site domain didn't return anything more ... not to say it's not there.

In any case, if the weights above are correct, that's a sizeable weight penalty for the better performance...]

 

[Dobermann]

Public service announcement: DVOR currently has a sale on the JetBoil Stash system for only $111 (this is about 26% off the overpriced MSRP of $150, so more than we'd get in the sales at the usual suspects, such as CampSaver, of 20%).

According to some of the links I posted above, the Stash pot is meant to be one of the most efficient HX pots around, with the system let down by the burner. So far, I haven't seen a lot of testing with the Stash pot and a MSR PRD or a Soto Windmaster.

If you could sell the Stash stove unit as-new for, say, $60 (??), then you get what's meant to be the best HX pot for $51.

Not sure if that's worth it when the Petrels or the Widesea can be had for $20-30, but if it is indeed the best HX pot, it could be worth it to some to have the best one-and-done system.

My funds are overspread on other projects at the moment, so posting here in case someone else can take up the sale price - and then let us know some results.

So - paging the HX / ultralight cook system crew: @Idaboy @HighUintas @AK Troutbum @BBob @sr80 @gtriple @diamond10x @TOLeary @nnmarcher @cornfedkiller @Harvey_NW @doverpack12 @TheAri

Sale ends in 5 days. If you miss it, you can sign up to DVOR for alerts the next time they list it (if they do).

 

[TheAri]

Public service announcement: DVOR currently has a sale on the JetBoil Stash system for only $111 (this is about 26% off the overpriced MSRP of $150, so more than we'd get in the sales at the usual suspects, such as CampSaver, of 20%).

According to some of the links I posted above, the Stash pot is meant to be one of the most efficient HX pots around, with the system let down by the burner. So far, I haven't seen a lot of testing with the Stash pot and a MSR PRD or a Soto Windmaster.

If you could sell the Stash stove unit as-new for, say, $60 (??), then you get what's meant to be the best HX pot for $51.

Not sure if that's worth it when the Petrels or the Widesea can be had for $20-30, but if it is indeed the best HX pot, it could be worth it to some to have the best one-and-done system.

My funds are overspread on other projects at the moment, so posting here in case someone else can take up the sale price - and then let us know some results.

So - paging the HX / ultralight cook system crew: @Idaboy @HighUintas @AK Troutbum @BBob @sr80 @gtriple @diamond10x @TOLeary @nnmarcher @cornfedkiller @Harvey_NW @doverpack12 @TheAri

Sale ends in 5 days. If you miss it, you can sign up to DVOR for alerts the next time they list it (if they do).

You can also just call Jetboil directly and they’ll sell you a “replacement” pot only stash.

 

[BBob]

For me as far as the JB Stash pot: It may be more efficient but it's bigger. Yes it'll hold a large canister but I personally don't care. I'd rather have the smaller slimmer Sterno, Petrel or the FM X1 even if they are the smallest bit less efficient. I'd buy the FM X1 @ $40 over the JB Stash and throw the stove bits in the extras unused box to be given away someday. I'd probably buy the X1 over the Petrel due to the better burner (wind) coverage and a hair bit better efficiency.

 

[Dobermann]

You can also just call Jetboil directly and they’ll sell you a “replacement” pot only stash.

Thanks - I'd momentarily forgotten that ... I'm outside the US, and when I asked them, they referred me to another country's distributor, despite the fact I wanted to order from the US, and have it sent to a fellow Rokslider here. Will follow up again.

 

[Dobermann]

For me as far as the JB Stash pot: It may be more efficient but it's bigger. Yes it'll hold a large canister but I personally don't care. I'd rather have the smaller slimmer Sterno, Petrel or the FM X1 even if they are the smallest bit less efficient. I'd buy the FM X1 @ $40 over the JB Stash and throw the stove bits in the extras unused box to be given away someday. I'd probably buy the X1 over the Petrel due to the better burner (wind) coverage and a hair bit better efficiency.

Good food for thought. Do you know the weight of the X1's pot (on its own without the burner?).