TSS Choke vs Reg Choke?

[Jack321]

So what's the special formula for TSS chokes vs Reg Chokes?

Two weeks ago my brother got a new red dot for his .410 and were taking my kids out turkey hunting for the first time this spring.

Initially we ran some cheap #7.5 loads thru it with the TSS extended turkey choke and the pattern at 25 yds was all over the 3ft x 4tf paper! (But a majority of the pattern was way low and left). We adjusted a each time and after 3 shots we had it "centered."

We switched to some 3" #7.5 TSS Federal and immediately got a solid pattern that would easily kill a turkey with 80% pattern in a nice 20 inch circle.

I was shocked that there would be such a difference between 7.5s target vs 7.5s TSS!

I'm taking the 7.5 target loads were ALL OVER a 3ft by 4 ft target! Then the TSS, boom all in a 20 inch circle.

Can someone explain this to me?

One more story that has me even more confused. Two yrs ago I went with my dad to shoot try and get one with my 20ga 1100. (I'd shot all my other birds with my 12ga). And I picked up some TSS and bought a Primos Xfull Choke, not paying attention to any size constriction, just whatever was cheapest.

Well dad and I doubled on two gobblers. One at 52 yds and one at 54 yds, bang, flop, both dropped like we cut the strings one em. (range finder confirmed as dad went out and stood next to each bird.)

But I wasn't using a "TSS Specific Choke Tube" which is why I was so surprised that the .410 had such a fee pattern with target 7.5s vs TSS 7.5s

So now this conundrum is living rent free up in my head....Because I'm now looking at my own 28ga SBE3 to turkey hunt this spring.

I need a Turkey Choke for it.

I have some 2-3/4" Rob Robert's 7.5" TSS Federal Custom shop ammo I was going to try. And I also got some 3" Winchester Super Pheasant 1-1/8oz loads of copper plated #5s. Then yesterday I see Winchester is making a 3" TSS load with 1-1/2oz load of #9s pushing 1150fps!

And now I'm not sure which Choke to look at with potential which load? And I'm only finding one Carlson Choke on Amazon, unless I'm missing something?

 

[Jason Snyder]

It’s most likely a difference in the wad quality and design. The wad is a huge factor in shot pattern consistency.

 

[j3h8]

Lead compresses in the choke tube TSS does not. TSS is solid like steel shot but much much denser. Therefore your choke was "tighter" forcing a smaller pattern at the same range.

 

[Kurts86]

It has to do way more with the wad design and pellet hardness in the shotgun shell than the choke. You can get a better pattern out of a high quality TSS shell through an old fixed choke than a cheap lead shell through a high end extra full choke.

Most TSS chokes are functionally the same as any nicer choke made in the last decade or so usually out of 17-4 PH stainless steel. The angles and geometry can vary a bit but it’s a tool steel funnel at its core.

 

[Jack321]

It has to do way more with the wad design and pellet hardness in the shotgun shell than the choke. You can get a better pattern out of a high quality TSS shell through an old fixed choke than a cheap lead shell through a high end extra full choke.

Most TSS chokes are functionally the same as any nicer choke made in the last decade or so usually out of 17-4 PH stainless steel. The angles and geometry can vary a bit but it’s a tool steel funnel at its core.

Ok, so it's not like the better pattern was because it was a TSS specific choke with TSS ammo? And if it had been a plain-Jane "regular XF" choke TSS would still be OK?

I was worried that if I got that 28ga Carlson Choke (that is NOT TSS specific) it might not work as well?

But in reading your posts I can get this Carlson Choke and be OK with TSS? (Or any other Turkey ammo option?)

 

[Kurts86]

You don’t have to have a TSS specific choke to shoot TSS but when in doubt ask the choke manufacturer.

A lot of the better patterning shotgun shells have pretty structured wads, lots of these like federal flight control wads probably have 5x more wad plastic than a typical dove load and it is much stiffer plastic. The loads tend to be almost blind to most choke constrictions like federal flight control buckshot loads which stay super tight patterning even from cylinder bores. Most If not all TSS loads use a wad like that.

Carlson’s seems to like to laser TSS on the side of their chokes but you don’t see that from higher end choke manufacturers like Indian creek or Jebs but their’s are more than adequate for TSS. There isn’t a standard spec for a TSS choke but most quality chokes will be 17-4 PH stainless steel. This is a really tough, hard abrasion resistant super alloy commonly used for crazy applications like fracking pump bodies.

A choke that says TSS plus TSS shot is going to probably work pretty well but it’s not a requirement.

 

[Jack321]

You don’t have to have a TSS specific choke to shoot TSS but when in doubt ask the choke manufacturer.

A lot of the better patterning shotgun shells have pretty structured wads, lots of these like federal flight control wads probably have 5x more wad plastic than a typical dove load and it is much stiffer plastic. The loads tend to be almost blind to most choke constrictions like federal flight control buckshot loads which stay super tight patterning even from cylinder bores. Most If not all TSS loads use a wad like that.

Carlson’s seems to like to laser TSS on the side of their chokes but you don’t see that from higher end choke manufacturers like Indian creek or Jebs but their’s are more than adequate for TSS. There isn’t a standard spec for a TSS choke but most quality chokes will be 17-4 PH stainless steel. This is a really tough, hard abrasion resistant super alloy commonly used for crazy applications like fracking pump bodies.

A choke that says TSS plus TSS shot is going to probably work pretty well but it’s not a requirement.

Thanks! So that Carlson Choke will be fine for TSS or regular loads?

I guess I never considered the wad. So maybe these Winchester 3" Super Pheasant 1-1/8oz #5s might not work.

I figured they'd be just fine because I've taken turkeys down with 5s a lot before.

Now I'm obviously going to pattern these things and see.

Appreciate the info!

 

[dtrkyman]

I would go with 9.5 shot in .410, not very many 7.5 in a .410 load!

Lead deforms on set back when the shell is fired, hence the Londbeard XR ammo that has the shot in a frangible resin to keep pellets from deforming when fired.

I patterned my o/u .410 with the loads I had used to kill hundreds of pheasants and thousands of dove, I was shocked how poor the patterns were on a turkey target and even more shocked I had zero issue knocking down roosters and doves!

TSS is too hard to deform and just patterns tight, even in more open chokes.

 

[RAG]

Lead compresses in the choke tube TSS does not. TSS is solid like steel shot but much much denser. Therefore your choke was "tighter" forcing a smaller pattern at the same range.

This is true. But still shouldn't explain why, at 25 yards, you had a mess of a pattern with cheap #7.5s. Peculiar to say the least.

 

[RAG]

So what's the special formula for TSS chokes vs Reg Chokes?

Two weeks ago my brother got a new red dot for his .410 and were taking my kids out turkey hunting for the first time this spring.

Initially we ran some cheap #7.5 loads thru it with the TSS extended turkey choke and the pattern at 25 yds was all over the 3ft x 4tf paper! (But a majority of the pattern was way low and left). We adjusted a each time and after 3 shots we had it "centered."

We switched to some 3" #7.5 TSS Federal and immediately got a solid pattern that would easily kill a turkey with 80% pattern in a nice 20 inch circle.

I was shocked that there would be such a difference between 7.5s target vs 7.5s TSS!

I'm taking the 7.5 target loads were ALL OVER a 3ft by 4 ft target! Then the TSS, boom all in a 20 inch circle.

Can someone explain this to me?

One more story that has me even more confused. Two yrs ago I went with my dad to shoot try and get one with my 20ga 1100. (I'd shot all my other birds with my 12ga). And I picked up some TSS and bought a Primos Xfull Choke, not paying attention to any size constriction, just whatever was cheapest.

Well dad and I doubled on two gobblers. One at 52 yds and one at 54 yds, bang, flop, both dropped like we cut the strings one em. (range finder confirmed as dad went out and stood next to each bird.)

But I wasn't using a "TSS Specific Choke Tube" which is why I was so surprised that the .410 had such a fee pattern with target 7.5s vs TSS 7.5s

So now this conundrum is living rent free up in my head....Because I'm now looking at my own 28ga SBE3 to turkey hunt this spring.

I need a Turkey Choke for it.

I have some 2-3/4" Rob Robert's 7.5" TSS Federal Custom shop ammo I was going to try. And I also got some 3" Winchester Super Pheasant 1-1/8oz loads of copper plated #5s. Then yesterday I see Winchester is making a 3" TSS load with 1-1/2oz load of #9s pushing 1150fps!

And now I'm not sure which Choke to look at with potential which load? And I'm only finding one Carlson Choke on Amazon, unless I'm missing something?

A lot to unpack here. I reload TSS, and have patterned around 100 loads/chokes (not a cheap endeavor, to be sure!). I don't think you need a TSS-specific choke...you only need a steel-safe choke...but I can't say I have compared, as I've only used regular chokes. As others have mentioned, TSS is very dense and thus patterns several chokes tighter than lead. I did not find that, out of my gun and my chokes, patterns got any tighter when going past Improved-Modified Choke. In fact, out of one of my guns (Winchester SX1), my Modified choke with TSS gives me an XXX-Full pattern. Attached you'll see 96% pattern within the standard 30" circle, and 61% at 70 yards...which is waaay too tight for my needs, as I'm not shooting turkeys. But I'd be happy using that Modified choke with turkeys. Note, out of my Benelli, and using Carlson extended chokes, I need to use Improve Modified to get a similarly-tight pattern, so all guns/chokes are different.


Also, definitely #9.5 out of a 410!

 

[RAG]

Oh. You can use lead with Turkey chokes and be very effective on Turkey, especially when using uber-heavy payloads. But TSS will be better, and allow you to reach farther, at a cost. But you certainly don't need to use a choke that has more constriction than Full, as I highly doubt anything past that level of constriction will get your patterns any tighter. *I have not looked into what constriction the TSS-marketed/labeled chokes are using.

 

[Jack321]

A lot to unpack here. I reload TSS, and have patterned around 100 loads/chokes (not a cheap endeavor, to be sure!). I don't think you need a TSS-specific choke...you only need a steel-safe choke...but I can't say I have compared, as I've only used regular chokes. As others have mentioned, TSS is very dense and thus patterns several chokes tighter than lead. I did not find that, out of my gun and my chokes, patterns got any tighter when going past Improved-Modified Choke. In fact, out of one of my guns (Winchester SX1), my Modified choke with TSS gives me an XXX-Full pattern. Attached you'll see 96% pattern within the standard 30" circle, and 61% at 70 yards...which is waaay too tight for my needs, as I'm not shooting turkeys. But I'd be happy using that Modified choke with turkeys. Note, out of my Benelli, and using Carlson extended chokes, I need to use Improve Modified to get a similarly-tight pattern, so all guns/chokes are different.


Also, definitely #9.5 out of a 410!

It sounds as if I should just buy the choke and try my different loads & see what's best. (Which I figured I would have to do anyway.)

I suppose I wanted to see if I could get away with not having to buy TSS & could use these Winchester copper plated 5s.

I also didn't want to buy a new XFull choke & be disappointed.

I'll admit I was never a "put it on paper & pattern it first " type of guy until I played with the shims kits with my 28ga Benelli SBE3, but the more I do it, the more eye opening it us that I should do this with all my shotguns.

That and the horrible pattern of cheap 7.5s were just eye openers.

 

[RAG]

It sounds as if I should just buy the choke and try my different loads & see what's best. (Which I figured I would have to do anyway.)

I suppose I wanted to see if I could get away with not having to buy TSS & could use these Winchester copper plated 5s.

I also didn't want to buy a new XFull choke & be disappointed.

I'll admit I was never a "put it on paper & pattern it first " type of guy until I played with the shims kits with my 28ga Benelli SBE3, but the more I do it, the more eye opening it us that I should do this with all my shotguns.

That and the horrible pattern of cheap 7.5s were just eye openers.

Right, you never really what's going down (as in down-range, lol) until you pattern. I think you absolutely could have good success with a traditional turkey choke and traditional turkey lead loads...but there's no denying TSS will allow you to reach farther (they are capable of patterning extremely tight and the penetration ability/data of TSS is almost unbelievable), so you just have to determine if the cost is worth it. For Turkey, you don't shoot much, so I'd argue it's worth it. While you could certainly experiment a bunch and possibly gain a little bit, I think you'd be quite happy using a "regular" steel-safe Improved Modified choke, with a TSS load of #9.5, and shoot a pattern at 60 yards and see if you like it. I would be surprised if you weren't happy with the pattern and call it good, without having to shoot a bunch of rounds.

 

[Jack321]

Right, you never really what's going down (as in down-range, lol) until you pattern. I think you absolutely could have good success with a traditional turkey choke and traditional turkey lead loads...but there's no denying TSS will allow you to reach farther (they are capable of patterning extremely tight and the penetration ability/data of TSS is almost unbelievable), so you just have to determine if the cost is worth it. For Turkey, you don't shoot much, so I'd argue it's worth it. While you could certainly experiment a bunch and possibly gain a little bit, I think you'd be quite happy using a "regular" steel-safe Improved Modified choke, with a TSS load of #9.5, and shoot a pattern at 60 yards and see if you like it. I would be surprised if you weren't happy with the pattern and call it good, without having to shoot a bunch of rounds.

An IM choke for a turkey, incredible.

And why 9.5 tss instead of 7.5 tss? Just the pellet count?

My understanding is a +3 with TSS

Meaning:
7 TSS = lead 4s?
9 TSS = lead 6s?
9.5 TSS = lead 7s?

I'm always a "bigger is better" kind of guy....or "there's no such thing as TOO dead"

 

[RAG]

An IM choke for a turkey, incredible.

And why 9.5 tss instead of 7.5 tss? Just the pellet count?

My understanding is a +3 with TSS

Meaning:
7 TSS = lead 4s?
9 TSS = lead 6s?
9.5 TSS = lead 7s?

I'm always a "bigger is better" kind of guy....or "there's no such thing as TOO dead"

Well you definitely don't want the turkey flying off wounded. I don't agree with the +3 for TSS vs lead...I'd say it's more like +4, because it's about the penetration. That's my experience. If shooting for head and neck, I'd personally favor more pellets, as opposed to larger pellets. But, now that you bring it up, if I were loading turkey loads, and wanted to reach as far as possible, I'd opt for a slower load with 2oz of #8s or #8.5s. TSS #8s will penetrate plenty, farther than you can dream. Again, no right answer...even at 70 yards, 2oz of #9 or #9.5 should achieve quite a few hits to head and neck, and even if it doesn't penetrate the skull, I still think bird is stone dead. With 2oz of #8s, you won't get as many hits, but hits to the head absolutely pernitrate sufficiently.

For fun, I dug up a couple patterns of #8s, shot at 70 yards with Modified choke, with 1.25oz and 1.125oz payload; if you can imagine/project the pattern density with extra .75oz payload! (and another pattern at 50yards)

 

[Macintosh]

You can absolutely use lead 5’s for turkeys. Just realize that its perhaps going to like a different choke and your effective range will probably be much shorter than with smaller tss shot.

Lead is really, really soft, even the high-antimony good stuff. It deforms from setback, but it also deforms as it is rubbed along and squeezed thru the bore and the choke, especially with wads designed more for wingshooting applications. That means every pellet has uneven dimples, which cause turbulence in flight, which cause pellets to fly erratically and slower, and drop out of the pattern entirely, as well as just veer away causing a more open pattern. There is such a thing as a “blown out” pattern, at least with lead shot. Its often associated with tight bore and very tight chokes, larger shot, a long shot column (more shot in contact directly with bore and chokes), and higher velocity. You can improve wads and buffer the shot, backbore, etc but its always in play to a large degree with softer shot. This concept is what lead to the idea of a “square” load performing best, Ie the shot column no longer than it is wide, which is very roughly a 3/4oz 28ga, 7/8oz 20, 1oz 16, 1 1/8oz 12ga with lead shot, and its why until TSS came along no one really did much with larger shot payloads in subgauges for this stuff at all. Ie an ounce and a quarter pretty much always patterned much better from a 12ga than it did from a 20ga with lead shot.

In short, lead requires more choke with old school wads, but you get other problems if you go too tight with too much shot, so at some point theres only so much you can do with lead. TSS is just a different animal between the density allowing much smaller shot and the hardness not really deforming it at all. About the only thing its not good for is having a really open pattern at very close range, bc you get something like mod to full-ish choke patterns even from a cylinder choke. You just have to pattern with that gun, load and choke to see.

Carlsons 12ga mobilchoke tss choke is .640, which is crazy tight. I asked, because they also offer tss-safe chokes that they used to market as tss chokes in other constrictions. They said it was purely marketing because they had partnered with federal and found the .640 to pattern best with federals best-selling tss turkey load of #7’s, but that any other ammo might prefer a different choke. Different bore diameter in various choke systems is also going to require a different choke diamter to achive the same constriction.

 

[RAG]

So you really got me thinking, because I'm not a turkey hunter (keep that in mind please, lol) and do not take anything I say as gospel. But generally speaking, I have a lot of experience with TSS, patterning, etc.

I probably need to research the penetraton data further to see the minimum shot size that will kill effectively out to 70 yards (assuming I want that to be my maximum range). My gut tells me, driven at 1500fps, TSS 8,5s would make great head/neck shots. However, a heavy payload at just 1200 fps might require #8s. All that said, looking at my below pattern of 1.25oz #8s, with Modified Choke at 70 yards, I feel like this alone would kill a turkey at 70 yards...at least 80% of the time. Juice that pattern up to a 2oz payload, and I think you'd struggle to draw a turkey head/neck within that pattern and find a dead turkey! (as for #7s, I just don't think there are enough pellets)


I porblyab

 

[N2TRKYS]

I have never had a more open choke out perform a tighter choke with TSS, EVER.

Folks that like a “forgiving patern” will be putting around 250-280 pellets in a 10” circle at 40 yards with a 1 5/8 oz load of #9s in a 20ga. That’s way to open for me. I like at least a consistent 300 pellets in a 10” circle with my 20ga setups.

#9s will penetrate further than your pattern will stay together. Meaning past the point that you’re getting at least 100 pellets in a 10” circle.

 

[Macintosh]

Do you have bad experience that leads you to want 300 pellets in 10”? The typical advice I have heard since forever is that a good turkey pattern requires 100 pellets in 10”. Or is it very shot size dependent, ie the 9’s need a lot more hits? Or are you just looking for 100/10” at 70 yards, not 40?

Ive been shooting win XR HD ammo in 6’s for decades. They advertised this stuff as “10% denser than lead”, but never called it tungsten. They stopped making it, and I only have 3-4 shells left. But every turkey I ever shot with it died “quite” well, often at ranges where I was getting only a bit more than 100 pellets in a 10” circle. Same with lead 6’s when I was using that. So curious on why you want 3x the pattern density as I would have said was standard to define a killing pattern?

 

[Jack321]

Damn. This is the stuff I like & geek out about.

I think I just need to pattern this stuff & try out some different options & choked.

My wife is going to hate me.