trying to fix Knight Ultra Light misfire problem

[raggedclaws]

Bought a Knight UL Western for an upcoming Idaho elk hunt and I've been working my way up the learning curve on 777, #11s, and conicals.

Each range session I've had 6-8 misfires. The striker will contact the #11 cap (RWS 1075+) but doesn't set it off. If I cock the rifle and hit the cap a second time, it fires. I've tried playing with how far the firing pin assembly is screwed into the bolt. Still misfiring. Cleaning the bolt doesn't make a difference either..it misfires clean or dirty. I've also tried pushing the cap onto the nipple quite hard (using a straight-line capper).

Called Knight twice about this -- first they told me that they had sent me a bad #11 nipple that lacked the proper off-center design. The tech explained that #11s are rimfire so they need an off-center strike to go off reliably. He had me take out my musket nipple to compare, explaining that both the #11 and the musket nipples should be off-center. My #11 nipple was centered, so he said he'd send me the correct #11 nipple. When the shipment arrived, it contained....another musket nipple instead. When I called back, someone else answered, and said they don't even make an offset #11 nipple...pretty confused about that. This new person said the problem was probably the RWS caps that i'm using and that I should use CCI magnums instead. Those are like unobtainium currently -- so while I try to track some down, does anyone have any other suggestions?

Should I back the breech plug out a turn?

Could there be some mechanical problem with my bolt? It makes a loud clacking noise upon lowering the bolt handle no matter how slow I ease it down...loud enough to spook a deer if I were in a treestand. Is this normal? And could it be related to a firing pin problem?

Appreciate any thoughts. I'm leaving for the hunt next Friday and really hope i can get this sorted by then...

 

[sabotloader]

Bought a Knight UL Western for an upcoming Idaho elk hunt and I've been working my way up the learning curve on 777, #11s, and conicals.

Each range session I've had 6-8 misfires. The striker will contact the #11 cap (RWS 1075+) but doesn't set it off. If I cock the rifle and hit the cap a second time, it fires. I've tried playing with how far the firing pin assembly is screwed into the bolt. Still misfiring. Cleaning the bolt doesn't make a difference either..it misfires clean or dirty. I've also tried pushing the cap onto the nipple quite hard (using a straight-line capper).

Called Knight twice about this -- first they told me that they had sent me a bad #11 nipple that lacked the proper off-center design. The tech explained that #11s are rimfire so they need an off-center strike to go off reliably. He had me take out my musket nipple to compare, explaining that both the #11 and the musket nipples should be off-center. My #11 nipple was centered, so he said he'd send me the correct #11 nipple. When the shipment arrived, it contained....another musket nipple instead. When I called back, someone else answered, and said they don't even make an offset #11 nipple...pretty confused about that. This new person said the problem was probably the RWS caps that i'm using and that I should use CCI magnums instead. Those are like unobtainium currently -- so while I try to track some down, does anyone have any other suggestions?

I honestly did not no that Knight or anyone else had an off set #11 nipple! I do know that the tech is correct that Knight did/does offer an off set Musket nipple.

OK so a few questions for you...

1. Is is a Knight nipple?
2. How do you seat/place the cap on the nipple? Seems unimportant but it isn't. What is probably happening is you are placing the cap on the nipple the initial strike of the hammer pushes the cap farther on to (seats) the cap correctly on the nipple post. Then the second strike sets the cap off.
3. The RWS cap is actually slightly smaller than a #11 cap - the RWS is 10.75. An additional problem my also exist. You are second person I know of having this problem with newly purchased RWS caps. I really wonder if this run/lot of RWS caps might even be a little more tight than 10.75. I would suggest if you can to pick up a tin of CCI #11 MAG caps and try them to see if you have the same problem. I am really thinking they will shoot correctly for you. If you do get some CCI's and they work as I think they will please let me know.

I have several containers of RWS Dynamint Noble 1075+ caps but they are several years old and they work perfectly every time.

4. Another thing that could help is a MSM #11 Nipple - Their nipple post is slightly smaller and with a possibly better igniter cone than does the Knight nipple. But again if the RWS are tighter it may not work either.

5. If... you need a fix quickly switch to the Musket nipple and get a container of Musket caps. Even the RWS musket caps should work. Make sure you do not get Musket caps that are designated 'for Reenactment'.

Should I back the breech plug out a turn?

No I would not suggest this at all.

Could there be some mechanical problem with my bolt? It makes a loud clacking noise upon lowering the bolt handle no matter how slow I ease it down...loud enough to spook a deer if I were in a treestand. Is this normal? And could it be related to a firing pin problem?

There is a slight possibility of this but I think you have already tried the different remedies.

Appreciate any thoughts. I'm leaving for the hunt next Friday and really hope i can get this sorted by then...

I hope some of this helps you. I would also tell you I feel the use of the #11 caps (magnum & RWS 1075's) is the better way to go as you can actually get a water proof seal on the when using the correct nipple.

The use of a good solid #11 capper and placing the cap on the nipple with a good amount of pressure to assure the cap is seated is really important. I would still encourage you to try some CCI Mag caps.

 

[raggedclaws]

Thanks for the quick reply, Sabotloader!

Answers to questions:
* Yes, it's a Knight nipple. Everything on the rifle is stock/OEM/however Knight was shipping ULs this summer.
* I'm pushing the cap onto the nipple pretty hard (~15-18lbs of force maybe?) using a Traditions straight-line capper. The sizing issue makes sense....and probably means that pushing the RWS cap far enough into place would require enough force to stretch the copper around the nipple, which I'm worried would damage the capper.

So I've taken both pieces of your advice on cap varieties....just ordered some CCI magnum #11s as well as some 1081 musket caps. Hopefully they'll arrive by next weekend, when I'll have one more day to shoot before heading to Idaho!

Thanks again. I'll report back.

 

[UtahJimmy]

Is your secondary safety backed out all the way? This allows full travel of your firing pin.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[raggedclaws]

Yes, the firing pin is coming to rest against the cap while the secondary safety still has some distance between it and the shroud...always a fair question though....

 

[sabotloader]

Thanks for the quick reply, Sabotloader!

Answers to questions:
* Yes, it's a Knight nipple. Everything on the rifle is stock/OEM/however Knight was shipping ULs this summer.
* I'm pushing the cap onto the nipple pretty hard (~15-18lbs of force maybe?) using a Traditions straight-line capper. The sizing issue makes sense....and probably means that pushing the RWS cap far enough into place would require enough force to stretch the copper around the nipple, which I'm worried would damage the capper.

That is the answer that I was looking for when trying to seat the cap with a capper. Right capper and right cap application.

Today I am meeting another ML member having the same problem with his Mountaineer. I am taking him some of my 'old' stock RWS and we are going to see for sure if there might be a difference.

I am 'REALLY' hoping that when you receive the CCI's the problem goes away. The CCI is a very good cap and is less expensive than the RWS. The only reason I went for the RWS was a tighter fit on the nipple post to get a water seal and my personal belief that the RWS was slightly hotter than the CCI.

So I've taken both pieces of your advice on cap varieties....just ordered some CCI magnum #11s as well as some 1081 musket caps. Hopefully they'll arrive by next weekend, when I'll have one more day to shoot before heading to Idaho!

Thanks again. I'll report back.

[/QUOTE]

I really wish I could just mail you some caps to get them to you quicker but mailing caps would really cause a problem. I hope you can get sighted in and set up so that when the caps get there you can simply go out in the garage and check pop several caps to verify the problem may be solved.

Where in Idaho are you headed?

 

[nphunter]

MY buddy had a misfire on his buck he killed this year with a RWS cap. This was on a Traditions Vortex, I assumed it was not enough spring pressure since his is the older style traditions with the thumb cocking mechanism and not the hammer.

Anyway his gun didn’t fire on a buck, luckily the buck stopped for a second try. Same cap but it fired the second strike. At the end of the hunt we both shot to empty our guns and his did the same thing again, misfired and then shot in the second strike. Hopefully it turns out to be the RWS caps, honestly it made me shy away from traditions and look at a more high muzzleloader like the knight UL.

He is using the 4 flange musket caps which I think is different than a #11. I’m new to ML so I’m not sure.

 

[raggedclaws]

I was able to find some CCI Standard caps locally, so I can run a partially informative experiment at least. The bulk of the actual sighting in is essentially done, fortunately.

In case it's of general interest to readers: I put on a Williams WGRS peep and a 3/16" Streamlined Ramp with .406" blade, and with that combo, centering the peep's elevation adjustment corresponds to a 100 yd zero for what I'm shooting. I settled on 85 grains of 777 3F with 460 or 420 grain No Excuses...they seem to have essentially the same POI within 100 yards (the max at the shooting range I have access to). 90g of 777 under a 460 caused the Ultra Light to come back at me fast enough to cut my finger in the trigger guard, so I stepped back down to 85.
I also load a .54 fiber wad from Ox-Yoke, per NE recommendation; I can't even hit the paper if I go wad-less. So the comment in the No Excuses FAQ -- "After years of tinkering.....I believe they can definitely improve accuracy..." is a pretty severe understatement in my case.

In Idaho I'll be in the vicinity of Dubois. Flying to Texas first to meet my brother-in-law, then driving to ID. So I've actually ordered the CCI magnums/musket caps shipped to Texas...very inconvenient not to be able to mail or fly with percussion caps...

 

[raggedclaws]

nphunter -- yup, that's my nightmare right there. Except that in my version of the nightmare, the gun goes click, and then the loud clacking noise from the UL's bolt as I cock it again spooks the animal so that I don't get the second shot.

 

[nphunter]

nphunter -- yup, that's my nightmare right there. Except that in my version of the nightmare, the gun goes click, and then the loud clacking noise from the UL's bolt as I cock it again spooks the animal so that I don't get the second shot.

Luckily it was a follow up shot on a lung hit deer, it was lying next to a juniper and he wanted to put another in it to put it down faster, it was steep and open so the shot was from about 20 yards. He misfired and it was hurt bad enough that it only ran out and stopped at just over 200 yards, he dropped down prone and took that shot and dropped it. That’s what has me wanting a reliable, accurate gun. That could have turned into a really long day if he would have missed the follow up or had a slightly less lethal first shot.

 

[raggedclaws]

Nice -- must have felt great to make that long shot when it really counted. Your friend must have experienced the misfires frequently enough to know in the heat of the moment that the rifle would fire with a second strike -- as in, he knew not to put in a new cap.

 

[raggedclaws]

Ok, today I spent some time snapping CCI Standard and RWS 1075+ caps in the garage.

The gun misfires with the CCI caps also. I shot about 25 and got 5 misfires -- they fired on the second strike each time. Got 2 misfires with the RWS 1075s, but i only fired about 15 of those because I already know there's a problem there. (Plus they're a lot louder and I'm in a townhouse...)

Another note, because I understand that it matters: The firing pin assembly is assembled into the bolt such that when the firing pin is resting on a bare nipple, I can't quite squeeze a dime between the secondary safety (screwed out to the max) and the back of the bolt shroud.

I think I'm ready to focus on the possibility of a fault somewhere in the bolt or firing pin assembly. Out-of-spec spring, some burr causing interference...not even sure what all the possibilities are but I'm sure there are some. It is certainly the roughest and noisiest bolt i've ever handled. I'm going to call Knight in the morning and propose that they swap out my entire bolt/firing pin assembly with one that they know works. They can send me a different nipple too, if they think that's playing a role.

 

[sabotloader]

Ok, today I spent some time snapping CCI Standard and RWS 1075+ caps in the garage.

The gun misfires with the CCI caps also. I shot about 25 and got 5 misfires -- they fired on the second strike each time. Got 2 misfires with the RWS 1075s, but i only fired about 15 of those because I already know there's a problem there. (Plus they're a lot louder and I'm in a townhouse...)

Another note, because I understand that it matters: The firing pin assembly is assembled into the bolt such that when the firing pin is resting on a bare nipple, I can't quite squeeze a dime between the secondary safety (screwed out to the max) and the back of the bolt shroud.

I think I'm ready to focus on the possibility of a fault somewhere in the bolt or firing pin assembly. Out-of-spec spring, some burr causing interference...not even sure what all the possibilities are but I'm sure there are some. It is certainly the roughest and noisiest bolt i've ever handled. I'm going to call Knight in the morning and propose that they swap out my entire bolt/firing pin assembly with one that they know works. They can send me a different nipple too, if they think that's playing a role.

I am afraid you are right... I worked with one today that has the same problem. I ended up changing changing hammers in the bolt. I now believe his spring was just to weak. It will certainly work on 209 and primers and I believe it would work with Musket caps.

I honestly do not know that the spring was weak but switching hammers seemed to cure the problem.

I think I would explain to Knight all the things you have done and ask if they would send you a new hammer assembly - actually ask for a replacement bolt and hammer. They will require you to send the old assembly back to them.

I really would hope they would do this for you. Especially since the gun is new.

Unfortunately the bolt assembly and they way work, they will never match a smooth rifle bolt. However with time they will get smoother.

Hoping for the best!

Second thought... on one of your thoughts yes turn the breech plug out a 1/4 of a turn. Do not shoot it with this but pop caps and see if that helps. Another thought.... When you close the bolt.... look at the distance the top of the nipple is from the face of the bolt. Should be about the thickness of a piece of paper.

Knight bulk produces the Western Plug to a certain length. There are some rifles that the BP goes in further than other because Green Mountain bored the BP hole a little deeper standard but still with in specifications.

 

[raggedclaws]

Ok so on my rifle, the distance from the (closed) bolt face to the nipple is about 0.078." So about 20 sheets of paper. Maybe that's more room than it should have. You can see the gap in the photo, hopefully.

But let's see...clearance on the order of ONE piece of paper implies that with a cap on the nipple, the bolt face should actually contact the cap as you pushed the bolt forward. Is that right?

 

[BionicMan]

Hello, this my first post.
Ragged, I have the same gun and same bullet, similar load and had same issue when hunting in Panhandle last year. I found that if my bolt is not fully seated (even by just a hair) my cap doesn’t go off. Could be the issue with your bolt? This week I discovered that my bolt is getting more difficult to lift. We should compare notes!

 

[raggedclaws]

Got in touch with Knight this morning and they said they will send me out another bolt+hammer assembly. Hopefully I'll have it by Wednesday because I fly out on Friday.

BionicMan, that's interesting. Would love to compare notes....looks like we're both too new on the forum to have PM privileges (to share contact info). But anyway, what do you mean by "fully seated?" Bolt handle fully down?

 

[BionicMan]

That’s good news on your new bolt. Hope you get it in time.
Yes fully down. I think as I lift the bolt the gap between the end of the bolt and the primer widens enough where by the firing pin cannot crush the cap? BTW my musket nipple from Knight is ‘offset’.

Got in touch with Knight this morning and they said they will send me out another bolt+hammer assembly. Hopefully I'll have it by Wednesday because I fly out on Friday.

BionicMan, that's interesting. Would love to compare notes....looks like we're both too new on the forum to have PM privileges (to share contact info). But anyway, what do you mean by "fully seated?" Bolt handle fully down?

wn

 

[sabotloader]

Ok so on my rifle, the distance from the (closed) bolt face to the nipple is about 0.078." So about 20 sheets of paper. Maybe that's more room than it should have. You can see the gap in the photo, hopefully.

But let's see...clearance on the order of ONE piece of paper implies that with a cap on the nipple, the bolt face should actually contact the cap as you pushed the bolt forward. Is that right?

O golly! that is way to big of a gap! After seeing that I am afraid the new bolt will not help! You need a longer breech plug. Knight would need to cut you a longer one, which they could not do with out the rifle.

There possibly is a short term fix if the new bolt doesn't work.

Sending you a PM...

 

[BionicMan]

Or a longer musket nipple screwed into the BP?? Could the end if your musket nipple be worn down?

 

[raggedclaws]

Sabotloader's idea about the headspace definitely shows some promise! Today, with the breech plug backed out half a turn (reducing the headspace by about 0.025") I snapped another 50 or so caps (both CCI and RWS) and only got one misfire. That was with an RWS 1075+, and it was towards the end of the string, so there was some fouling on the nipple. The cap fired on the second strike.

The gun is brand new, so the nipple shouldn't be worn down yet, theoretically. How many shots does it typically take before appreciable wear can be expected? I've fired around 200 or so caps on the nipple at this point, although the misfires appeared from the outset of my sighting-in. At first I just assumed that the problem was bad caps or that some aspect of my technique was messing them up (like maybe I was contaminating them with breech plug grease or solvent from swabbing between shots) so I'd just put a new cap on. It took me a while to realize that they'd fire on the second strike every time.

With luck the new bolt will arrive tomorrow. Maybe that will solve whatever remains of the problem by bashing the caps sufficiently hard to fire them every time. In any case, this has been illuminating, thanks sabotloader!