Trump Pardons the Hammonds

[bsnedeker]

Its also a huge disservice when we allow The People to do what they want at their will and defend them just because it was against the Federal Government.

Are you trying to tell me that two wrongs don't make a right? GTFO!!!

 

[Billinsd]

Wait...you are always arguing that the States should have more rights but then just showed how incompetent the State Governments are?

Right, the States should have more rights than they have now. That's what the Founders intended. It's not based on competency at all, rather representation, with emphasis on local and state, and very little on Federal. My examples were local government, not State. Most government is incompetent, Federal is bigger and generally the most corrupt and incompetent, but that's not always the case. Less government is better according to Libertarian leaning Conservatives like me.

 

[S.Clancy]

Are there any flat Earther's around here....

In all seriousness, my beliefs on this subject are this: If you are unwilling to believe what the courts have accepted as facts then I don't know what to tell you.

I am all for localized representation of Federal lands. In fact, that is kind of the point with the District and Field offices across the country of the numerous Federal land agencies. Is it the Federal Gov'ts fault that an attempt to log Forest Service lands is hamstrung by lawsuits from environmental groups? I believe no more than it's the Fish and Wildlife Service's fault when we couldn't delist gray wolves or grizzly bears.

Further, for logging, mineral extraction, or any other use, the costs (direct or indirect) of the practice must not exceed the benefits. It also should benefit a large number of people, not just the company or companies involved in the extraction.

I too lean towards Libertarianism, albeit likely from the "liberal" side. However, I in no way will ever support any form of land transfer from Federal to State control, because the mechanism is already in place, and used frequently, to dispatch of those lands. I believe the fact that we have access to 640 million acres of Federal land, just by being citizens, is one of the few remaining areas of American exceptionalism. My vote will side with whomever presents the strongest likelihood of keeping access.

 

[S.Clancy]

Are there any flat Earther's around here....

In all seriousness, my beliefs on this subject are this: If you are unwilling to believe what the courts have accepted as facts then I don't know what to tell you.

I am all for localized representation of Federal lands. In fact, that is kind of the point with the District and Field offices across the country of the numerous Federal land agencies. Is it the Federal Gov'ts fault that an attempt to log Forest Service lands is hamstrung by lawsuits from environmental groups? I believe no more than it's the Fish and Wildlife Service's fault when we couldn't delist gray wolves or grizzly bears.

Further, for logging, mineral extraction, or any other use, the costs (direct or indirect) of the practice must not exceed the benefits. It also should benefit a large number of people, not just the company or companies involved in the extraction.

I too lean towards Libertarianism, albeit likely from the "liberal" side. However, I in no way will ever support any form of land transfer from Federal to State control, because the mechanism is already in place, and used frequently, to dispatch of those lands. I believe the fact that we have access to 640 million acres of Federal land, just by being citizens, is one of the few remaining areas of American exceptionalism. My vote will side with whomever presents the strongest likelihood of keeping access.

 

[tttoadman]

My perspective is that there weren't any good guys in the Hammond-Bundy-BLM debacle. The shooting of Lavoy Finicum caused the BLM to lose in the court of public opinion - at least in the rural west. Trump is an elected official, and that means that public opinion means more than right or wrong for him. The whole thing is unfortunate, and the fallout will be a combination of good and bad. Good, in that it has been educational for the federal agencies involved and they will hopefully do a better job in the future. Bad, in that it emboldens others who would disregard the law.

It seems like the bundy clan and other trouble makers in the “rural West” are the people that want the good ol boy Wild West again. So when one of these cowboys pulls a gun on a law enforcement officer and gets shot, now people cry foul?? I call BS. Finicum basically committed suicide by cop. It is sad, but I think his emotions were driving him pretty hard in those last days.

 

[Huntnfmly]

It seems like the bundy clan and other trouble makers in the “rural West” are the people that want the good ol boy Wild West again. So when one of these cowboys pulls a gun on a law enforcement officer and gets shot, now people cry foul?? I call BS. Finicum basically committed suicide by cop. It is sad, but I think his emotions were driving him pretty hard in those last days


Lol
Don't get me started on the murder of lavoy

 

[TJ]

It seems like the bundy clan and other trouble makers in the “rural West” are the people that want the good ol boy Wild West again. So when one of these cowboys pulls a gun on a law enforcement officer and gets shot, now people cry foul?? I call BS. Finicum basically committed suicide by cop. It is sad, but I think his emotions were driving him pretty hard in those last days


Lol
Don't get me started on the murder of lavoy

I wasn't murder. He new exactly what he was doing and had plenty of opportunity to make the correct decision.

This might be harsh but it is my opinion. None of this BS needed to happen.

 

[cuerro viejo]

The pardon to me is perfect de-fuser.

If the Hammonds are true outlaws then this pardon will do nothing for them in the long run, but in the mean time it’s a big tension easier.
There are enough facts to say both sides are far from innocent, in this case it’s best for big government to step back.
Public sympathy won’t be so kind next time around to the Hammonds, because the government won’t be so loose on thier facts next time and will run a tighter ship.

With that said I find it funny how non ranchers/farmers are experts about normal agricultural practices.....

Not like the burned down two to three towns in protest...........

 

[Huntnfmly]

Tj I agree none of this needed to happen

 

[itsTyrtruion]

So when one of these cowboys pulls a gun on a law enforcement officer and gets shot, now people cry foul?? I call BS. Finicum basically committed suicide by cop.

the video that I saw showed fincum running away, rounded the corner of a truck and then was shot by a fed, who then backed away, and hurriedly got into a vehicle and left the scene... so im not sure which "cowboy" youre talking about pulling a gun on a cop...

I disagree in part with what the bundys did, but I completely understand why.

and knowing the history of what the feds have repeatedly done to the Hammmonds, its no wonder things got messy.

and as a federal officer myself, I know what kind of things are taught as work arounds when you need something done, and the amount of good old boy cover eachothers asses is ridiculous sometimes and flys in the face of the mission statement of my agency... especially the part that says "integrity"

hell... my administration argued the definition of "ordinarily" in court once. a rule said that a procedure would ordinarily be a certain amount. when it was shown that it never actually happened that way, they argued that the definition of ordinarily was still evolving.

a sick, and accurately sarcastic joke I tell people is; Trust me when I say don't trust anyone from the government, because Im from the government...

all in all... there was quite a bit of bad involved with this whole ordeal. and I don't think anyone can show or prove the government aren't the ones to have started this fight...

 

[bsnedeker]

the video that I saw showed fincum running away, rounded the corner of a truck and then was shot by a fed, who then backed away, and hurriedly got into a vehicle and left the scene... so im not sure which "cowboy" youre talking about pulling a gun on a cop...

I disagree in part with what the bundys did, but I completely understand why.

and knowing the history of what the feds have repeatedly done to the Hammmonds, its no wonder things got messy.

and as a federal officer myself, I know what kind of things are taught as work arounds when you need something done, and the amount of good old boy cover eachothers asses is ridiculous sometimes and flys in the face of the mission statement of my agency... especially the part that says "integrity"

hell... my administration argued the definition of "ordinarily" in court once. a rule said that a procedure would ordinarily be a certain amount. when it was shown that it never actually happened that way, they argued that the definition of ordinarily was still evolving.

a sick, and accurately sarcastic joke I tell people is; Trust me when I say don't trust anyone from the government, because Im from the government...

all in all... there was quite a bit of bad involved with this whole ordeal. and I don't think anyone can show or prove the government aren't the ones to have started this fight...

Did you see the part of the video where he basically screamed at the cops to shoot him for like 5 minutes? He wanted to commit suicide by cop so he would become a martyr... He got exactly what he wanted in my opinion.

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[TheTone]

Also apparently missed the part where he was reaching into his coat while officer had guns drawn, thats never a smart decision.

 

[5MilesBack]

Also apparently missed the part where he was reaching into his coat while officer had guns drawn, thats never a smart decision.

It's a good thing he wasn't black, or the entire country would have been protesting, and rioting, and burning their neighborhoods to the ground.

 

[itsTyrtruion]

Also apparently missed the part where he was reaching into his coat while officer had guns drawn, thats never a smart decision.

When he got shot in the abdomen he reached toward the wound, then he got shot again... he was first shot with his hands up, running away.

Does anyone here carry a firearm in their opposite hand pocket? I sure don’t.

And the FBI HNT shot at him from the air before that anyway. They have video of people searching for the spent cases, picking them up and then failing to place them into evidence... and an agent was indicted for it.

Also, suicide by cop isn’t when you’re in a car arguing with police... no matter how many times you tell them to just shoot you. Knowing officers that have actually been involved in suicide by cop, he was not true LT wanting to be shot and killed, nor did the cops have the right to shoot him, even tho OSP was cleared in the matter.


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[Huntnfmly]

Exactly they were shooting at his truck as soon as they came around that corner.
He wasn't reaching for a gun he had been shot.
Slam your thumb with a hammer and tell me you don't grab at it

 

[Huntnfmly]

On another note could someone explain how you put another post from someone in yours I tried and now it looks like I said it.
So for the record lavoy did not commit suicide by cop.
And people should watch the video from inside his truck

 

[Huntnfmly]

In the video each time lavoy grabs at his side from being shot he throws his hands back up

 

[Beendare]

I've seen so many varying accounts of this in the media....I really only know one thing for sure;

It was political
Thats never good when you have whole armys of guys on both sides armed to the teeth....and accident waiting to happen...and it did.

This is much like the situation with the FBI Hillary investigation; I don't fault the avg Agent.....the blame lies with the political appointees and higher ups lighting the match. I think the avg agent is just trying to do their job.

I appreciate guys in the know on this clarifying the situation....they are taking a bit of a risk in doing so.

I have 2 buddies in bad positions with their respective businesses after investing significant capital- 2 totally different situations in different areas but both at the mercy of political bodies that are changing their minds on policy.

I don't trust these politicians ...any of them.

 

[amassi]

I hadn't seen the video from in the cab of the truck
It sure paints a better picture of the events than the aerial did

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[lif]

Rule #1: Don’t trust the government. That was the inspiration behind both the declaration and the constitution. And I’m not talking law enforcement.