Training while on Low Carb Diet

[ianpadron]

I'll see your degree in exercise science and raise you a PhD/RD and MD, the qualifications of the guys who did the research in the video you didn't watch. They even talk about the elite athletes who are on ketogenic diets.

Those same athletes are infamous for crashing HARD in marathons, iron man events etc. Not to mention you use an entirely different energy pathway in resistance training, so kiss adding muscle goodbye on a keyogenic diet.

Look up Dr. Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon. They are the premier leaders in sports nutrition, and both are adamantly opposed to low/no carb diets.

Research and statistics can be skewed to prove just about anything. Real world results cannot.

There is a reason Olympic athletes, marathon runners, triathletes, etc. Do not use ketogenic diets.

And yes I watched the video, in fact it was shown in my sports nutrition class in college LOL

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[xl mammal]

I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave this after a few parting thoughts.

1. I don't think any marathon runners are infamous for crashing due to carb depletion. I don't think any marathoner are infamous, period.

2. I don't believe you watched the same video, because it lists 2 ultra-marathoners who compete on a ketogenic diet. Tim Olsen set the course record in the Western States 100-mile ultra. Maybe he would have "crashed" at the 101-mile mark. Hard to say but it seems like real-world result to me.

3. When you frame an argument, try to not speak in generalities. For instance, you said "Olympic athletes, marathon runners, triathletes, etc." don't use ketogenic diets. That's an enormous group of athletes with wildly varying diets, training, etc. You have no way of knowing how they all prep for competition. I listed 2 champion endurance athletes who disprove your claim.

4. Neither Brad Schoenfeld nor Alan Aragon are medical doctors or research scientists. Both sell products online, the former on a website called lookgreatnaked.com. My point is that I take much of what I read on T-Nation or in Men's Health with a grain of salt. There's a big difference between an M.D. at a university getting research published in medical journal and a dietician or personal trainer writing a web article.

5. I'll agree that it is harder to add muscle while carb depleted. As long as you're keto-adapted, you shouldn't see any degradation in performance with regard to cardiovascular endurance, though. I did a 130-mile bike ride while in keto and still had some left in the tank at the finish.

I'm not trying to being an ass, but I strongly disagree with your statements and want the OP to get both sides of the discussion.

 

[ianpadron]

I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave this after a few parting thoughts.

1. I don't think any marathon runners are infamous for crashing due to carb depletion. I don't think any marathoner are infamous, period.

2. I don't believe you watched the same video, because it lists 2 ultra-marathoners who compete on a ketogenic diet. Tim Olsen set the course record in the Western States 100-mile ultra. Maybe he would have "crashed" at the 101-mile mark. Hard to say but it seems like real-world result to me.

3. When you frame an argument, try to not speak in generalities. For instance, you said "Olympic athletes, marathon runners, triathletes, etc." don't use ketogenic diets. That's an enormous group of athletes with wildly varying diets, training, etc. You have no way of knowing how they all prep for competition. I listed 2 champion endurance athletes who disprove your claim.

4. Neither Brad Schoenfeld nor Alan Aragon are medical doctors or research scientists. Both sell products online, the former on a website called lookgreatnaked.com. My point is that I take much of what I read on T-Nation or in Men's Health with a grain of salt. There's a big difference between an M.D. at a university getting research published in medical journal and a dietician or personal trainer writing a web article.

5. I'll agree that it is harder to add muscle while carb depleted. As long as you're keto-adapted, you shouldn't see any degradation in performance with regard to cardiovascular endurance, though. I did a 130-mile bike ride while in keto and still had some left in the tank at the finish.

I'm not trying to being an ass, but I strongly disagree with your statements and want the OP to get both sides of the discussion.

I think that generalities are far more applicable than individual differences here bud. I don't need advice on framing an argument. You basically contradict yourself when you mention the fact that there are so few endurance athletes who are performing at a high level on a keto diet. OP would benefit most by abiding by the same principles of exercise physiology that apply to the vast majority of mankind...that is not a generality, that is fact.

You don't need to be a Medical Doctor to know this stuff. Studies in these areas are well known for their shockingly low n values, and seemingly arbitrary statistical methods. Excuse Dr. Schoenfeld for making money online...a quick look on PubMed will show you he has more medical, physiological, and university journal publications than just about anyone in his field and is a distinguished professor. How dare he use that knowledge and clever marketing to make some cash though...

His textbooks are literally course material for exercise science and dietetics students at high ranking universities and he is on the board for the National Strength and Conditioning Association, which by any account is the gold standard organization for all fitness professionals. But he's not an MD...so what the hell would he know....right?

Once again, can people lose weight on a ketogenic diet? DUH. Many people are living proof. Is it optimal? NO, our physiology (unless you're an Inuit) indicates otherwise.

Now until you can sit down and explain to me how a ketogenic diet rivals a traditional high carb approach on a cellular level, I'm just not buying it. The energy systems are too compromised in terms of adding lean mass, which is mission critical for sustainable and meaningful body recomposition.

Another suggestion would be to get off your research high horse and accept that there are people who do this stuff for a living, myself included. When you prescribe dietary changes to hundreds of people, it becomes glaringly easy to draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't. I wouldn't show up at your place of work and tell you how to do things and what works, just becauseI saw a video or read an article on a different method....you'd tell me to get lost.

Similar case here, I'm not saying this stuff to blow hot air, I'm saying it because it needs to be said. Keto is not and will never be the answer for overall wellness and performance.

The human body is capable of adapting to utilize fuel as efficiently as our surroundings provide...but that does not make it optimal. And that there is my point. Keto is not optimal.



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[Poser]

I've come pretty full circle on this argument over the last 5+ years, having experimented with Paleo, Keto etc. conclusion? An athlete needs a lot of Fat, Protein and Carbs to perform optimally. The problem with these questions are that they are often coupled with losing a significant amount of weight. Optimal Athletic performance and weight loss programs aren't the same thing. If you want to perform, you need to eat and you need to eat a lot. Losing weight requires a caloric deficit, which is suboptimal for athletic performance. So, sure, a person off the couch, especially if they are young, will respond well to training, any training, and likely lose weight as a result of any new exercise, once the noice effect tapers off, there aren't a lot of great options for doing both at the same time. It seems it would be better to choose a weight loss route and then train for performance without caloric restrictions.

On a different note, the OP's training schedule only has 1 rest day per week. You need a minimum of 2 and, realistically 3 unless you are sleeping 9-10 hours a night and/or you are still in your 20s. If you are older than ~35, you absolutely need 3 days of rest per week. Training days don't make you stronger, faster, longer. Rest days achieve improved strength, speed and endurance by giving the body time to adapt to the stimuli of training days. Be realistic about your sleep, nutrition, daily stress levels and overall recovery. There is exercise, training and then there is "effective training." Reality is, you are likely an average guy, with an average job, average sleep and average rest, at best. The schedule/program of a professional athlete doesn't apply because their whole lives are dedicated to recovery. Even the military, long time hold outs of "sleep doesn't matter", are starting to come around on this reality. You expect people to perform over a plane of time, They have to be well rested and in a recovered state.


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[DucNutz]

I've been lurking on here mostly consuming all the info many of you have posted. Thanks for that. I haven't posted much because I haven't had much to share. I have some experience with low-carb, specifically a ketogenic diet and will share it for what it's worth - my experience. After about 5 years of a busy work schedule that involved 300 hours of over time per year, eating fast food and not getting in the gym often enough, I found myself about 50-60 pounds overweight. I tried several programs and had a hard time sticking with them. A guy that I work with who is a fitness freak, probably the most fit person I know, recommended the keto diet. I tried it and it worked for me. In 5 months I lost 45 pounds. I felt amazing. I'm sure that losing 45 pounds would make anyone feel amazing and that sticking to any exercise/diet program would help anyone lose weight. The difference I felt with this vs. anything else I tried was that I felt amazing after about 3-5 days. A metabolic shift takes place when you cut carbs and your body transitions to converting fat into ketones for energy, it's referred to as the Keto Flu, due to flu like symptoms. I didn't find it that bad. I think that paramount to a "low carb" diet is to eat enough fat for energy. My calories came 70% from fats, 25% from protein and only 5% from carbs. I gained muscle and lost fat. I felt great. I decided to come out of it during my hunts due to sharing food with my hunting partners. Wasn't bad at first. One of the differences I found was that I did not get hunger pains if I did not eat. When busy at work I would lose track of when it was time to eat and found myself going 6-8 hours between meals before realizing that I hadn't eaten. It's a different kind of hungry felling that I could only describe as empty. Never got Hangry like is did eating oats or healthy grains. Never lost energy due to a lack of food. Most of my exercise came from hiking, with about 2-3 days of weight training in the gym.

There's ton's of information out there. I found that eating keto is becoming a "secret weapon" for endurance athletes, even read an article in mean's health for what it's worth. Check out RunKeto.com All about endurance athletes who have been eating keto for years, they say they don't hit the wall. I'll never run a marathon, maybe a half some day, but running is not my thing. I can say that I put in a 9 mile hike after only having some butter coffee for breakfast, never got dizzy light headed or hungry. I could never have done that without having to take a break and eat a bar before.

As far as gaining muscle, google Keto gains. Plenty of body builders there eating keto and gaining muscle. I think there's probably some experimentation that needs to be done here. Protein can be converted to glucose by the body if eaten in excess. I stayed around 25% and didn't have trouble gaining. I don't have a ton of muscle mass though and someone with more muscle to feed might require more.

One of the things I came across while doing my own research was a podcast called ketovangelist. On the one I listened to he had a journalist, Nina Teicholtz on. She's written a book called the big fat surprise which goes into the research done that gave us our nutritional guidelines. The book is on my reading list, but in the conversation she tells about how scientists/nutritionists were effectively bullied into accepting the studies done, that some big corporations were involved in funding shoddy science and pushing the whole low fat guidelines.

Now that hunting season is over, I did find that I gained weight, but I didn't really hold back during that holidays and have not been exercising outside of anything while hunting. I've decided that this year I am going to stay keto for the entire year. I will allow a cheat meal here and there, but only for special occasions. I'm going to have some tests done to monitor my cholesterol and blood sugar ect... And I'm going to hit the gym/trail regularly. might even try that crazy cross fit thing.

I do believe that there are people out there that will skew studies or information for personal gain, I do believe that our current nutritional guidelines were influenced for somebody's personal gain. Do your own research. Try it. I was told by countless people I'd have a heart attack within months, that i'd only gain weight and not have any energy. That wasn't my experience.

What I would say to the OP is if you're going "low carb" you need to also go "high fat" if you want the energy.

 

[Felix1776]

I think that generalities are far more applicable than individual differences here bud. I don't need advice on framing an argument. You basically contradict yourself when you mention the fact that there are so few endurance athletes who are performing at a high level on a keto diet. OP would benefit most by abiding by the same principles of exercise physiology that apply to the vast majority of mankind...that is not a generality, that is fact.

You don't need to be a Medical Doctor to know this stuff. Studies in these areas are well known for their shockingly low n values, and seemingly arbitrary statistical methods. Excuse Dr. Schoenfeld for making money online...a quick look on PubMed will show you he has more medical, physiological, and university journal publications than just about anyone in his field and is a distinguished professor. How dare he use that knowledge and clever marketing to make some cash though...

His textbooks are literally course material for exercise science and dietetics students at high ranking universities and he is on the board for the National Strength and Conditioning Association, which by any account is the gold standard organization for all fitness professionals. But he's not an MD...so what the hell would he know....right?

Once again, can people lose weight on a ketogenic diet? DUH. Many people are living proof. Is it optimal? NO, our physiology (unless you're an Inuit) indicates otherwise.

Now until you can sit down and explain to me how a ketogenic diet rivals a traditional high carb approach on a cellular level, I'm just not buying it. The energy systems are too compromised in terms of adding lean mass, which is mission critical for sustainable and meaningful body recomposition.

Another suggestion would be to get off your research high horse and accept that there are people who do this stuff for a living, myself included. When you prescribe dietary changes to hundreds of people, it becomes glaringly easy to draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't. I wouldn't show up at your place of work and tell you how to do things and what works, just becauseI saw a video or read an article on a different method....you'd tell me to get lost.

Similar case here, I'm not saying this stuff to blow hot air, I'm saying it because it needs to be said. Keto is not and will never be the answer for overall wellness and performance.

The human body is capable of adapting to utilize fuel as efficiently as our surroundings provide...but that does not make it optimal. And that there is my point. Keto is not optimal.



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I'm a natural fat kid and I've tried just about everything. I'm currently in the process of leaning up before next hunting season. I'm currently down about 13 pounds. Been following a lower carb "diet" which consists of about 50 grams or so per day while maintaining a calorie deficit. Seems to be working but my gym work is definitely suffering. My endurance is good but my strength is garbage. I do full body workouts 3x per week with some type of low impact cardio on my off days.

Your stance is that higher carbs is better for performance which I personally agree with due to my own experimenting. So, you would only recommend a calorie deficit for an athlete that needed to lean up?

 

[307]

I think that generalities are far more applicable than individual differences here bud. I don't need advice on framing an argument. You basically contradict yourself when you mention the fact that there are so few endurance athletes who are performing at a high level on a keto diet. OP would benefit most by abiding by the same principles of exercise physiology that apply to the vast majority of mankind...that is not a generality, that is fact.

You don't need to be a Medical Doctor to know this stuff. Studies in these areas are well known for their shockingly low n values, and seemingly arbitrary statistical methods. Excuse Dr. Schoenfeld for making money online...a quick look on PubMed will show you he has more medical, physiological, and university journal publications than just about anyone in his field and is a distinguished professor. How dare he use that knowledge and clever marketing to make some cash though...

His textbooks are literally course material for exercise science and dietetics students at high ranking universities and he is on the board for the National Strength and Conditioning Association, which by any account is the gold standard organization for all fitness professionals. But he's not an MD...so what the hell would he know....right?

Once again, can people lose weight on a ketogenic diet? DUH. Many people are living proof. Is it optimal? NO, our physiology (unless you're an Inuit) indicates otherwise.

Now until you can sit down and explain to me how a ketogenic diet rivals a traditional high carb approach on a cellular level, I'm just not buying it. The energy systems are too compromised in terms of adding lean mass, which is mission critical for sustainable and meaningful body recomposition.

Another suggestion would be to get off your research high horse and accept that there are people who do this stuff for a living, myself included. When you prescribe dietary changes to hundreds of people, it becomes glaringly easy to draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't. I wouldn't show up at your place of work and tell you how to do things and what works, just becauseI saw a video or read an article on a different method....you'd tell me to get lost.

Similar case here, I'm not saying this stuff to blow hot air, I'm saying it because it needs to be said. Keto is not and will never be the answer for overall wellness and performance.

The human body is capable of adapting to utilize fuel as efficiently as our surroundings provide...but that does not make it optimal. And that there is my point. Keto is not optimal.



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This is a really good summary by Ian. We CAN adapt to a lot of different things, but that doesn't make them optimal.

I find a couple of things very interesting about the video. The cyclist experiment seems pretty poorly done IMO. There was no measure of output, just time to exhaustion. I would like to see average Watts/min in the data set as I think it would be quite enlightening, though likely contrary to the obvious bias of the researcher. I believe that a very low carb diet may be OK for going slowly for a long time (which is pretty much the definition of an ultramarathon) but it's not going to produce much in higher performance activities and cannot imagine it being optimal for increasing lean body mass.

Why do people have this idea that an MD is the absolute authority on every topic... Aragon would run circles around any MD in the nutrition world. MD is a clinical degree, and while a Ph.D. is certainly a mark of expertise, it often indicates such a high degree of specialization that outside of the specific area of interest, there's not a lot of room for knowledge on application or even the rest of the field associated with the research topic.

 

[ianpadron]

I'm a natural fat kid and I've tried just about everything. I'm currently in the process of leaning up before next hunting season. I'm currently down about 13 pounds. Been following a lower carb "diet" which consists of about 50 grams or so per day while maintaining a calorie deficit. Seems to be working but my gym work is definitely suffering. My endurance is good but my strength is garbage. I do full body workouts 3x per week with some type of low impact cardio on my off days.

Your stance is that higher carbs is better for performance which I personally agree with due to my own experimenting. So, you would only recommend a calorie deficit for an athlete that needed to lean up?

Felix, for guys who have always been heavy, there are usually some things going on behind the scenes metabolically that can make weight loss a little bit trickier than a simple calories in/calories out situation.

What you'll want to focus on is improving your body's insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. That basically means that you want to retrain your body to use carbs to fuel your recovery, and not pad your fat stores. Most overweight and sedentary individuals don't respond well to carbohydrates, so early on in an exercise and fitness program, dropping them down to 100-150 grams per day (still WAY higher than ketosis) immediately pre and post workout can work wonders for rewiring your system.

Once you start to respond better to carbs, and trust me, you will be able to tell (you'll get leaner, more efficient in the gym, etc.) you can add more carbohydrates back in and track your calories and macronutrients. Long term, aiming for 35% of cals from protein, 25% of cals from carbs, and 40% from fats, you're going to be cookin' with gas.

You can break most people up into 3 different body/metabolism types. Ectomorph, Endomorph, and Mesomorph. All utilize nutrients in a unique way, my guess is that you fit into the Endomorph category; making you particularly sensitive to carbs...but you still need them to fuel your training and recovery.

Obviously those percentages are guesstimates, but they make a great starting point and you can adjust as you go.

Long term, if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. Basic thermodynamics says so.

Hope that helps brotha!

 

[xl mammal]

This is a really good summary by Ian. We CAN adapt to a lot of different things, but that doesn't make them optimal.

I find a couple of things very interesting about the video. The cyclist experiment seems pretty poorly done IMO. There was no measure of output, just time to exhaustion. I would like to see average Watts/min in the data set as I think it would be quite enlightening, though likely contrary to the obvious bias of the researcher. I believe that a very low carb diet may be OK for going slowly for a long time (which is pretty much the definition of an ultramarathon) but it's not going to produce much in higher performance activities and cannot imagine it being optimal for increasing lean body mass.

Why do people have this idea that an MD is the absolute authority on every topic... Aragon would run circles around any MD in the nutrition world. MD is a clinical degree, and while a Ph.D. is certainly a mark of expertise, it often indicates such a high degree of specialization that outside of the specific area of interest, there's not a lot of room for knowledge on application or even the rest of the field associated with the research topic.

I agree with you on the wattage output. Although it may have been part of the experiment and just not mentioned, i.e. set gear/rpm.

I didn't say MD's are the absolute authority (in fact the other member of the research team is an RD), but I think research scientists are closer to it than most anyone else. The difference between those conducting scientific experiments and others is that the former should only seek the truth, whether it meets his/her hypothesis or not. Everyone else is just arguing for/against someone else's research or for their own individual perspective. Like we're all doing here.

I agree with you about keto-adaptation being best for low/slow activities, too. The OP was getting ready for an elk hunt, not a powerlifting competition. Then again, I didn't see the suplex listed under Prohibited Methods in the states I plan to hunt.

To get this thread back on track, the OP is looking for recommendations about his workout while on a low-carb diet. Not a debate on the pros/cons of his choice based on someone's unqualified opinion (I'm as guilty as anyone, here).

And now to completely contradict what I just said, I'll add that I agree with everything ianpadron wrote in his last post...for what it's worth. There's more than one way to get there, but, for me, the weight came off fastest, and I lost no aerobic capacity while in ketosis. For what I was trying to do, ketosis was optimal...BUT I'm a big guy who's goal was to lighten the load I had to carry up hills.

Good luck to all.

 

[Felix1776]

Felix, for guys who have always been heavy, there are usually some things going on behind the scenes metabolically that can make weight loss a little bit trickier than a simple calories in/calories out situation.

What you'll want to focus on is improving your body's insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. That basically means that you want to retrain your body to use carbs to fuel your recovery, and not pad your fat stores. Most overweight and sedentary individuals don't respond well to carbohydrates, so early on in an exercise and fitness program, dropping them down to 100-150 grams per day (still WAY higher than ketosis) immediately pre and post workout can work wonders for rewiring your system.

Once you start to respond better to carbs, and trust me, you will be able to tell (you'll get leaner, more efficient in the gym, etc.) you can add more carbohydrates back in and track your calories and macronutrients. Long term, aiming for 35% of cals from protein, 25% of cals from carbs, and 40% from fats, you're going to be cookin' with gas.

You can break most people up into 3 different body/metabolism types. Ectomorph, Endomorph, and Mesomorph. All utilize nutrients in a unique way, my guess is that you fit into the Endomorph category; making you particularly sensitive to carbs...but you still need them to fuel your training and recovery.

Obviously those percentages are guesstimates, but they make a great starting point and you can adjust as you go.

Long term, if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. Basic thermodynamics says so.

Hope that helps brotha!

Thank you. I will bump my carbs up and see what happens.

 

[Poser]

There is a point you reach in a Anaerobic state where the body cannot convert fat to energy fast enough. Where fat will supply a steady energy source in a aerobic state and likely work well for say a ultra runner, it may not work well for a cyclists pulling a steep climb at a race pace. I think that conceivably, a fat based diet would supply most hunting activity, especially if you controlled the pace on steep climbs, though that's not to say that carbs aren't a more efficient fuel source for such endeavors. (Again, I say eat a lot of everything just to be sure )

The body will almost always perform better with a caloric surplus rather than a deficit. Athletes who compete in weight classes are really the only ones who should be concerned with deficits. If you are trying to get stronger, you'll almost certainly need a surplus. Even bodybuilders, who are not the least bit concerned with athletic performance or strength, only muscle mass, rely upon bulking phases to achieve muscle mass and only go into caloric deficits for short periods of time leading up to competition. Again, any compromise between eating to lose weight and eating to perform is just that: a compromise.


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[Frito]

What a fun thread! I love it when guys start throwing around credentials. I don't have any by the way. My life has been changed for the better with a high fat/low carb diet as well as many others around me. Haters be hate'n. Doctors be in disagreement with each other like religious denominations. Check out the view point of one doctor in a book called "Wheat Belly". It's a good, easy and fun read that has worked wonders for me and a few around me that abide by it....basically Paleo. It's a fad. A good fad. Hard to argue with success. I do have a brother with two PhD's though. He likes to let you know he has them too. I'd listen if he had a real job and didn't vote for Hillary.

 

[Frito]

Started a low carb diet in a last attempt to lose more weight before Elk season. My goal is to stay less than 20 carbs per day. Looking for does and don'ts while on this diet. From what I've read online it's hard to maintain strength while on this diet. I'm also counting calories as well. Staying under 2000 cal/day. I lift 3 times per week and do cardio 3 times per week as well. I always start with 5 or 10 minutes of cardio before lifting. Should I change my workout in anyway to accommodate this diet?

Monday - legs and lower body
Tuesday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Wednesday - Chest, triceps, and upper body
Thursday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Friday - Full body or whatever isn't too sore
Saturday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Sunday - rest

Thanks for any help.

Looks like a decent program workout wise. As far as the diet, you will have to give it time and see how you feel. You will have a hard time maintaining strength and you might have to experiment with your caloric intake....carbs as well. Sometimes performance and some unsightly visceral fat don't go hand in hand. As a triathlete I once lived on carbs, and not the good ones. Sometimes the leaner I got the less I performed and had to meet a balance. Not everyone has this experience. I'd say keep it up and see how you feel. There's a lot of sports nutrition information out there and some of it can really lead you astray. People love to jump in and give advice(including myself) about things as inexplicable as changing one's body, but a lot of it has to do with experimenting within reasonable judgement and find out what is working for you. I'd say you are on a decent track.

 

[SkinnyPete]

Started a low carb diet in a last attempt to lose more weight before Elk season. My goal is to stay less than 20 carbs per day. Looking for does and don'ts while on this diet. From what I've read online it's hard to maintain strength while on this diet. I'm also counting calories as well. Staying under 2000 cal/day. I lift 3 times per week and do cardio 3 times per week as well. I always start with 5 or 10 minutes of cardio before lifting. Should I change my workout in anyway to accommodate this diet?

Monday - legs and lower body
Tuesday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Wednesday - Chest, triceps, and upper body
Thursday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Friday - Full body or whatever isn't too sore
Saturday - Cardio jogging or elliptical or stairmaster
Sunday - rest

Thanks for any help.

For what it's worth bud, this is about the same exercise program and food regimen I am on. 3 days of lifting,2 days of hard cardio.
So far I've lost about 90lbs (I'm in a calorie deficit, im obese, and working to fix it.)
I'm on month 8, and I can say I have had zero issues with "bonking", matter of fact, I don't have blood sugar drops anymore, I don't get the "shaky, need to eat" feeling ever and I seem to have much more endurance energy then my buddies with carb based diets.
As much as guys will say "It's a fad" etc, if you look into the historical use of a low carb/sugar diet it has been around for hundreds and even thousands of year. Not exactly a fad.
I hope your journey has been good.

 

[307]

Low Carbohydrate, High Fat diet impairs exercise economy and negates the performance benefit from intensified training in elite race walkers. - PubMed - NCBI

A high carbohydrate diet remains the evidence based choice for elite athletes to optimise performance. - PubMed - NCBI

Re-Examining High-Fat Diets for Sports Performance: Did We Call the 'Nail in the Coffin' Too Soon? - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Frito]

Back in my early 20's when I was a wannabe triathlete I was swimming about 8000 meters a day, biking nearly 50 miles and running anywhere from 3 to 12 miles a day, carb loading was a must. Even back then I had what we called a "swimmer's layer" from all the carbs that I ingested. I had to really lean back to see any kind of a six pack. I figured out quickly that without this layer my performance suffered but this was a very individual experience. There are plenty of ripped triathletes that are world class but you can probably bet your boots that they are carb loading for training and racing.

That said, if one wishes to drop some pounds before hunting season just to get in better shape or even look better while maintaining strength and musculature, which I think is the intention of the OP, cutting carbs is the best way to do it, plain and simple. If we were triathletes or elite race walkers we would have to adjust accordingly. Different strokes for different folks. With all the diversity in body types and individual fitness needs it becomes more of an art than a science. What works for some might not be the best for others and dropping 20 lbs cutting carbs while still maintaining a healthy diet and exercise program will make a world of difference in the field.

 

[Frito]

But all's relevant....You definitely don't want to be in a state of ketosis on a pack-out.

 

[FreeRange]

But all's relevant....You definitely don't want to be in a state of ketosis on a pack-out.

Why do you say that? I'm not trying to disagree but I'm just curious what limit you think ketosis puts on you during a packout.

I've been strictly keto for the last 6 months, not at all for the purpose of weight loss but for better energy day to day and while in the hills. For me it's been amazing and I definitely noticed differences with light and heavy packs. Went 24 hours without eating one day (which I did often before going keto, have always had a bad habit of forgetting to eat while hunting) ending with a 6 hour stalk covering many miles and killed a bull and packed it out before taking a bite. I felt great on the first trip out and great all the next day finishing the pack out.

My personal experience has been keto is great for these types of activities. I know there is a slight penalty in explosive movements but I don't perform at a level nor do many activities where that is really noticeable. As was mentioned above it may limit performance in an anaerobic state but we'd all do well to avoid pushing ourselves to into an anaerobic state very often.

I'll add that probably the biggest benefit to me of keto has been much more sustained energy day and night. I have a hyper fast metabolism and used to constantly experience crashes after eating and long drives at night were nearly impossible for me. A huge part of hunting for me involves marathon all night drives to maximize time on the hill and being on this diet has made those drives so much safer, which is huge because as has been brought up many times, driving to the trailhead is probably the most dangerous part of our hunts.

 

[Frito]

Why do you say that? I'm not trying to disagree but I'm just curious what limit you think ketosis puts on you during a packout.

I've been strictly keto for the last 6 months, not at all for the purpose of weight loss but for better energy day to day and while in the hills. For me it's been amazing and I definitely noticed differences with light and heavy packs. Went 24 hours without eating one day (which I did often before going keto, have always had a bad habit of forgetting to eat while hunting) ending with a 6 hour stalk covering many miles and killed a bull and packed it out before taking a bite. I felt great on the first trip out and great all the next day finishing the pack out.

My personal experience has been keto is great for these types of activities. I know there is a slight penalty in explosive movements but I don't perform at a level nor do many activities where that is really noticeable. As was mentioned above it may limit performance in an anaerobic state but we'd all do well to avoid pushing ourselves to into an anaerobic state very often.

I'll add that probably the biggest benefit to me of keto has been much more sustained energy day and night. I have a hyper fast metabolism and used to constantly experience crashes after eating and long drives at night were nearly impossible for me. A huge part of hunting for me involves marathon all night drives to maximize time on the hill and being on this diet has made those drives so much safer, which is huge because as has been brought up many times, driving to the trailhead is probably the most dangerous part of our hunts.

I'll rephrase that better....you don't want to be making the "transition" to the state of ketosis when on a pack-out. Does that make better sense? I do not maintain the state throughout the year so several times a year a friend and I make the painful transition and during those periods which can last me nearly 4 days it would be grueling to do the pack-outs that we do. What you describe is correct, but when you waffle like I do these days, the changing metabolism has a temporary negative effect.

The guy I hunt with is a big dude....he is a lean 290lbs and spends a lot of the year over 300. This guy could chase me up a 14'r and stand me on my head when we got there. The transition is much less painful for him. His weight swings can be around 40 lbs. I'm a small fry, at about 170 and my weight swings are within 10 lbs but if I cut hard today, I'll be a shaky weak mess tomorrow. After a week or 2 I'm in the condition you describe yourself in.

By all means, argue! I'm still learning too.

 

[FreeRange]

Got it and I totally agree. One thing I noticed when I started keto is that I'd probably gone in and out of ketosis a number of times in the past due to how I ate (and didn't eat) while out hunting and backpacking and those experiences were not too fun. I used to equate it to just being gassed at the end of a long trip but thinking back on my food intake I could definitely see that that's what was going on. I've found as time's gone on the transition back into ketosis is quite easy for me though I don't often go out of it.