Traditional Muzzleloader Shooters timid?

[SchwarzStock]

Are traditional muzzleloader shooters to timid to stand up for themselves? I ask this after many years of hearing the so-called "traditional archers" wail about crossbows. The archers are whine about the trigger and sights of a crossbow while not acknowledging they use the same things with their compounds. I would say with the reduced range of a crossbow and rainbow trajectory the crossbow is not of advantage so there should be no more restrictions on their use for hunting than the compound.

Back to the muzzleloaders; traditional vs inlines. It is obvious to anyone with their eyes open the two groups are vastly different. The tradional guys have to contend with all the limitations of the guns in use 100+ years ago while with the exception of the ignition the inlines with modern scopes and added gadgetry bare faint resemblance to a flint or percussion rifle of the 1850's. We traditional gun shooters look down our nose at the inlines, as well we should, but no one to my knowledge is whining we need to take an individual's right to hunt with the rifle of their choice like the archers are. Do we as traditional rifle shooters need to become more vocal and scream for new restrictions on the inline guys?

 

[Wrench]

I shoot side locks and trad bows but I give zero fuchs what anyone else chooses to do. I have killed enough that I am making it more of a challenge for me.....but you don't need to play by my rules, just be ethical, diligent and grateful for the opportunities we have.


Remember, comparison is the theif of joy.

 

[SchwarzStock]

Too bad there are more archers thinking like you! Long bow?

 

[Wrench]

I have a pile of bows mostly longbows but also a few recurves.....none of that metal stuff though.

 

[DKennedy951]

I am in the mindset of choose whatever weapon you want to hunt with as long as it is legal. Who am I to tell someone else what they should or should not use when they are 100% legal.

 

[dsotm]

We traditional gun shooters look down our nose at the inlines, as well we should, but no one to my knowledge is whining we need to take an individual's right to hunt with the rifle of their choice like the archers are. Do we as traditional rifle shooters need to become more vocal and scream for new restrictions on the inline guys?

Absolutely not

 

[SchwarzStock]

Absolutely not

What is wrong with the the archers? Why do they need to ostracize the crossbow shooters?

 

[ElDiablito]

Do we as traditional rifle shooters need to become more vocal and scream for new restrictions on the inline guys?

I don’t know where you live, but restrictions have been trending more “traditional” here in the west in several states….

 

[BBob]

Some states are very traditional oriented with others very unlimited and some have both traditional and unlimited or near unlimited. So what’s your point again?

 

[SchwarzStock]

I don’t know where you live, but restrictions have been trending more “traditional” here in the west in several states….

Right not I am living in the Black Forest in Germany but I grew up in Utah.Col and most recently lived in AZ. What does traditional mean? rifle or bow or both?

 

[ElDiablito]

I’m talking muzzy. But since you mention it, UT just approved “restricted equipment” hunts in several study units.

“(2) "Restricted Archery Equipment" means archery equipment as detailed in Subsections R657-5-11(1) through (3) with the following restrictions:

(a) must be a single stringed long bow or recurve bow with no cables, pulleys or cams;

(b) has no sights; and

(c) has a draw weight of 40 pounds or more.

(3) "Restricted Muzzleloader Equipment" means muzzleloader equipment as detailed in Subsections R657-5-10(1) and (2) with the following restrictions:

(a) the ignition system is limited to traditional flintlock, wheellock, matchlock, musket cap, or percussion cap which must be entirely visible when the hammer is drawn back. All other ignition systems, including 209 primers, are prohibited; and

(b) contains only open sights or peep sights.

(4) "Restricted Rifle Equipment" means a rifle as detailed in Subsection R657-5-8(1) with the following exceptions:

(a) contains only open sights or peeps sights; and

(b) cannot be semi-automatic.”

 

[SchwarzStock]

I’m talking muzzy. But since you mention it, UT just approved “restricted equipment” hunts in several study units.

“(2) "Restricted Archery Equipment" means archery equipment as detailed in Subsections R657-5-11(1) through (3) with the following restrictions:

(a) must be a single stringed long bow or recurve bow with no cables, pulleys or cams;

(b) has no sights; and

(c) has a draw weight of 40 pounds or more.

(3) "Restricted Muzzleloader Equipment" means muzzleloader equipment as detailed in Subsections R657-5-10(1) and (2) with the following restrictions:

(a) the ignition system is limited to traditional flintlock, wheellock, matchlock, musket cap, or percussion cap which must be entirely visible when the hammer is drawn back. All other ignition systems, including 209 primers, are prohibited; and

(b) contains only open sights or peep sights.

(4) "Restricted Rifle Equipment" means a rifle as detailed in Subsection R657-5-8(1) with the following exceptions:

(a) contains only open sights or peeps sights; and

(b) cannot be semi-automatic.”

COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!

 

[2Stamp]

I have friends I hunt with that use inlines and I don't care what they hunt with. I choose to hunt with a more traditional muzzy. I like the challenge, that's also why I bow hunt. I like the challenge of getting close.

 

[HighUintas]

Are traditional muzzleloader shooters to timid to stand up for themselves? I ask this after many years of hearing the so-called "traditional archers" wail about crossbows. The archers are whine about the trigger and sights of a crossbow while not acknowledging they use the same things with their compounds. I would say with the reduced range of a crossbow and rainbow trajectory the crossbow is not of advantage so there should be no more restrictions on their use for hunting than the compound.

Back to the muzzleloaders; traditional vs inlines. It is obvious to anyone with their eyes open the two groups are vastly different. The tradional guys have to contend with all the limitations of the guns in use 100+ years ago while with the exception of the ignition the inlines with modern scopes and added gadgetry bare faint resemblance to a flint or percussion rifle of the 1850's. We traditional gun shooters look down our nose at the inlines, as well we should, but no one to my knowledge is whining we need to take an individual's right to hunt with the rifle of their choice like the archers are. Do we as traditional rifle shooters need to become more vocal and scream for new restrictions on the inline guys?

Yes there should be more restrictions in general. However, how do game management boards satisfy all hunter user groups without creating excess stress on deer and elk herds or alternatively telling one user group to pound sand?

In my opinion, all weapons and hunting accessories for big game hunting should be restricted in effectiveness/technology.

 

[Kyguy]

The whole bow vs crossbow thing is just a machismo pissing match. Seriously. One of those does NOT shoot further than the other, nor is it more accurate in the hands of an accomplished shooter. It's still archery.

I'd say that the muzzleloading thing is getting a bit ( a lot?) more complicated. "Muzzleloader" is starting to be a really gray area. A side lock with 70gr ffg and a Knight Disc with 70gr ffg and a 300 gr slug are on close to equal footing, especially if both are open sight or if both are scoped. A custom bolt action with a brass module for ignition, with a heavy load of smokeless, a 4-20 scope with dials, and the same 300 gr slug is a completely different machine, offering smokeless centerfire performance and reliability. I mean, a 300 gr slug at 2500 FPS or more is various 338 to 375 mag territory.

I personally think that the moniker of "muzzleloader season" should be changed to "blackpowder season". During black powder season, anything is fine as long as it's using blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute. And NO, I don't think BH209 is a blackpowder substitute. Same thing with the Firestick modules, and some states agree, saying they're not legal in their season.

I personally think that someone should be permitted to hunt with whatever they want, whenever they want. So to each their own, but I think that the smokeless thing is really going to get the primitive/blackpowder/muzzleloeader seasons all jacked up with more restrictions across the board.

 

[EdP]

I am a traditional ML hunter and hunt with custom flintlock rifles. I will continue to do so until AMD challenges my sight to the point I need to go to a scope, then I might go to an in-line. It is foolish to think the state F&G depts care at all about traditional methods. They only care about 2 things, $$$ and deer population control. Their goal is to control the deer population via hunting and to bring in the most $ to the state coffers in the process. Efforts to create a purely traditional season, bow or ML, is pretty much pissing in the wind.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

inlines with modern scopes

Its ignorant to broadly assume an inline muzzy has a scope and also that you couldn't put a scope on a non-inline muzzleloader if you were so inclined (nothing about a modern made barrel on a flintlock for instance would prevent drilling and tapping it would it?).

I live in a state that allows inlines and 209 primers but does not allow scopes, powder pellets or sabots.

Aside from a more consistent ignition what exactly does using a non-scoped inline with full bore projectiles have in terms of an advantage versus a non-inline with a modern barrel with rifling???

 

[HighUintas]

Its ignorant to broadly assume an inline muzzy has a scope and also that you couldn't put a scope on a non-inline muzzleloader if you were so inclined (nothing about a modern made barrel on a flintlock for instance would prevent drilling and tapping it would it?).

I live in a state that allows inlines and 209 primers but does not allow scopes, powder pellets or sabots.

Aside from a more consistent ignition what exactly does using a non-scoped inline with full bore projectiles have in terms of an advantage versus a non-inline with a modern barrel with rifling???

Lock time, some (maybe all) inline barrel steels used have higher pressure capability than your old TV Hawken, some breeches can handle high pressure, and most have faster twist rates allowing a ballistically superior bullet.

So, more accuracy potential, more range.

 

[Macintosh]

That stuff^^ is only a function of what went into making that individual gun, has nothing to do with whether its a sidelock vs inline. Unless you define traditional as “only capable of a specific chamber pressure with a lock time greater than xx milliseconds and with a twist rate less than xx” then that stuff is only correlated, not caused by, being a “traditional” ml. Define it based on correlated features and make widespread restrictions, and watch “traditional” ml tech catch up in a hurry.

 

[Macintosh]

All states balance hunter opportunity with harvest. We should argue about what it means and what it takes to offer enough opportunity to hunt, for long enough each season, by enough people, while keeping harvest at an appropriate and sustainable level. Imo any other way to look at this issue is petty bickering.