Too much bullet?

[Laramie]

Some of the opinions in this thread are .... interesting. Smh

 

[wildernessmaster]

I don’t think it’s your bullet. I’ve had excellent results with the 308 edge tlr 175 gr loads on a couple deer and 9-10 pigs. I’d say as good or better results than anything I’ve used. Nice wound channels and good blood trails.

I have as well, but honestly after the 30 (under) shot last night, I am having my doubts its (1) or (2). Both elk I have shot did not go far at all and it was an excellent killer. That said, most of the deer (especially does) around here are 100-120 lbs soaking wet - and very thin bodied. As well since it doesn't get or stay stinking cold as a witches titty they don't have super thick hide. Couple with the strange shot reactions its making me think...

In no way am I bashing a 308, the Edge TLR or anything - just thinking for these deer it might be a super pencil poker.

 

[Phil j]

Put a pencil hole through the heart and you have a dead deer.

 

[TheGDog]

Well... running with the assumption that the bullet did not expand... the behaviour you describe was a lot like my first bow kill recently. It wasn't the greatest shot. It entered high and quite a bit back. Likely missed the lung. I was stunned! The buck just stood there in shock for a number of seconds... I was in shock, thinking to myself... What the..!? I KNOW I should have hit him, since I saw the arrow for a split second as it passed thru a swath of sunset in its path over to that deer.

After those few seconds... he starts to walking away like "Uh oh... I think I need to get out of here!..." To which he crosses a gullie, and walks around a tree to turn back around and look back and assess WTH was it that shot at me? At which I begin to getup off my Tripod stool and frantically knock another arrow still is shocked disbelief.

But then he turns to stott away... very quickly took it back down to a walk... and that's when I saw him pass thru some sunlight again and saw that it had exited his opposite hip/butt-cheek area and glorious red was marked down his rump! He continue to walk briskly out of view. Waited the 30min, then re-traced his path noting small amounts of drops here and there.


Also I shot one 25yds... .30-30... quartering heavy away... bullet went in below last rib, pierced liver, decimated right-hand side lung. Came to rest just under hide far-side scapula. He DID NOT jump or flinch at all! As he began running away... for the first like 15-20 yds showed no signs of being injured. Couldn't see any blood exiting him. I was stunned and bewildered! I KNEW I hit him! Then finally he started to hold up that opposite leg while running and I slumped back down in relief. It was something like 24" of penetration thru his body! And he STILL ran 60yds thereabouts!

So yeah... they (Mule Deer in my case) can have real weird and varied reactions to getting shot. Very educational experience.

 

[Michael54]

My buddy uses the edge tlr in his 06 and he hasnt had any issues with expansion. Baseball sized exits on all 3 of his deer. All shots were under 100 yards.

 

[TheGDog]

Put a pencil hole through the hart and you have a dead deer.

Let's NOT put any pencil holes thru the "hart" shall we? (That's my last name, hehe). Heart yes, hart no!

 

[Laramie]

I have as well, but honestly after the 30 (under) shot last night, I am having my doubts its (1) or (2). Both elk I have shot did not go far at all and it was an excellent killer. That said, most of the deer (especially does) around here are 100-120 lbs soaking wet - and very thin bodied. As well since it doesn't get or stay stinking cold as a witches titty they don't have super thick hide. Couple with the strange shot reactions its making me think...

In no way am I bashing a 308, the Edge TLR or anything - just thinking for these deer it might be a super pencil poker.

An expandable bullet will absolutely expand, even on a fawn, at close range. The faster they are going, the more they expand. Shoot a milk jug at 30 yards and see what happens.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Here you go:

1) It is not your bullet.
2) It is not your velocity.
3) It is not your shooting distance.
4) It is not your small deer.
5) It may be your rifle and/or scope.
6) It may be shooter error.
7) Unlikely but possible there was a twig/small tree branch in the way.

For items 1-4, if a 300 Weatherby Magnum will produce a DRT with 180 gr TTSX on a lung shot on a young Coues buck at 7 yards, your 308 Win setup is not too much especially at 30 yards.

For item 5, this is one thing that you should have done right away. It only take a moment to eliminate the rifle and scope as the issue.

For item 6, where did you aim on the deer that was at 30 yards? If at the top of the shoulder, then it is likely that you just missed high, grazed the top of the deer's back, or hit a void in the deer that won't kill them and won't produce much of (if any) a blood trail.

For item 7, I'm going out on a limb (pun intended). Was there any vegetation in the way? Does not take much to slightly deflect a bullet.

But if is none of the above, then you have fallen out of favor with the hunting gods. Make whatever sacrifice they require to get back in their good graces.

OMG...

[Note I am quoting you AZ_Hunter but not picking just on you. Actually thank you for the non gun preaching part]

Ok guys... Let me check the gun "preaching" here.

1. I build guns. I know guns.
2. I check my guns ALL THE DAMN time (scopes, mounts, etc).
3. A sighted in gun doesn't not magically get out of sight unless something mechanical happens to it (like you change something; something gets loose; etc). If it is kept in a padded secured case, everything is tight on it, etc then it should shoot close to what it was sighted in (barring environmental and atmospheric conditions. Regardless of you other beliefs I have done this... sighted in a weapon, jumped it (yes out of the sky) into another location including a rather hard landing - and it shot spot on.
4. I JUST FREAKING SHOT a deer a week before at 200 yards. It hit, where it was aimed and killed the damn deer.
5. Since then it has not been dropped, etc to have changed the sighting in.

SO PLEASE FOR GOD's sake stop being a bunch of self righteous preaching gun fools. Its not my first rodeo. I probably know more about guns, ballistics and can outshoot the lot of you since I HAVE shot things at 1500+ yards; shot under real-life tactical scenarios; and basically have a gift for shooting. (that was mildly self promoting and sardonic for those of you who are hell bent on being trolls).

Those of you who read my original post, and subsequent and have provided non-gun 101 preaching input - GOD BLESS you! and thank you.

The comments about the location might be on as well. They are ground level shots at the top of the shoulder and could have been high. I could be slightly off on the vertical ballistics at a distance with the factory load as I have not chrono'ed it. That said it doesn't explain the 30 yard shot at shoulder (was trying to just drop em in place and take the shoulder out). That's a shot I can make with my hands tied, wearing a too too and bear spray in my eyes.

I do know that the Edge TLR is in the same class as the ELD match of bullets. It should open at some slower speeds. But I also know it is designed for deep penetration so it doesn't pop open super fast. I also know that some of the bullets in that class (no specific vendor, it happens from time to time) can get very small variations in the copper/metal that controls the expansion and can make them expand less (or even way more, and fragment).

Just wondering if I miss the bone and am lung shooting a deer then there is not a whole lot of density to expand that bullet fast enough.

But as AZ_Hunter said, I may have just freaking fallen out of favor with my gun god Mercury and must now sacrifice my oldest child to be back in his favor.

 

[wapitibob]

" I probably know more about guns, ballistics and can outshoot the lot of you since I HAVE shot things at 1500+ yards; shot under real-life tactical scenarios; and basically have a gift for shooting. "



"Just wondering if I miss the bone and am lung shooting a deer then there is not a whole lot of density to expand that bullet fast enough."


yea ok

 

[Ozarkansas]

I have as well, but honestly after the 30 (under) shot last night, I am having my doubts its (1) or (2). Both elk I have shot did not go far at all and it was an excellent killer. That said, most of the deer (especially does) around here are 100-120 lbs soaking wet - and very thin bodied. As well since it doesn't get or stay stinking cold as a witches titty they don't have super thick hide. Couple with the strange shot reactions its making me think...

In no way am I bashing a 308, the Edge TLR or anything - just thinking for these deer it might be a super pencil poker.

I'm not trying to preach at you here, I understand you don't think the gun could have shifted zero. But the fact remains that you had what may well have been 3 misses- it would be foolish not to recheck zero. Heck I recheck "zero" with my recurve after I miss, and that thing doesn't even have sights. It just rules out the most obvious and simpler answer right away.

The "pencil poke" thing is a a bit of an old wive's tale. I've shot coyotes and bobcats with partitions, and expansion was scary. bullets expand the most at the point when its traveling the fastest, which is right at the very beginning of the impact. If the deer was hit, and the bullet was capable of expanding on impact with flesh and bone, it would expand-period. It may be a tough bullet and not expand much, but it still would expand. I know for a fact that a mild .308 load will still expand on deer, and even if you shot it with an FMJ I'm sure there would still be some reaction to getting hit by the deer.

I think the #1 thing you need to do is recheck zero. Especially since you had several instances of no reaction. Until you do that, there is no point even speculating on the bullet. If you're gun is sighted in, maybe its the bullet/load, but I still doubt it. I personally would blame myself for a whiff before I would think a .308 ice-picked a deer with no reaction and no blood.

 

[idelkslayer]

SO PLEASE FOR GOD's sake stop being a bunch of self righteous preaching gun fools. Its not my first rodeo. I probably know more about guns, ballistics and can outshoot the lot of you since I HAVE shot things at 1500+ yards; shot under real-life tactical scenarios; and basically have a gift for shooting. (that was mildly self promoting and sardonic for those of you who are hell bent on being trolls).

Then why are you asking anybody for help?

 

[TheGDog]

Here you go:
.
.
7) Unlikely but possible there was a twig/small tree branch in the way.

You would be STUNNED how far off from where you were aiming hitting a twig/branch can deflect a shot!

Was aiming at a coyote extremely close, under me, while I was perched on this lil hill. Aiming from above was trying to go for the shoulders area that I *could* see above this juniper branch. But I figure since being so close ya gotta remember about the 1.5 inches to line-of-sight... I must have not done that and thus the projectile must have clipped that branch. It freakin' hit around the lumbar area! That was a little .55 gr .223 Rem, but still. I would not have expected that much deflect to be possible from such a thin branch.

 

[wapitibob]

I've had a scope move almost 2 feet at 400 just from shooting it.

 

[browning2480]

I've had a scope move almost 2 feet at 400 just from shooting it.

That is your scope. Doesn’t happen to pros

 

[TheGDog]

Based on your description above, you may have only hit flesh (even then there would be some blood sign), or potentially missed completely.

^^^THIS - The first coyote I ever hit... it was a jump shot opportunity. He ran up out of the drainage I was working my way up, he stopped when he got to top edge of drainage to look back at me and BOOM!!!

His body did a full barrel-roll mid-air!!! Then he fell to the ground in a slump like a sack of potatoes. Head just kind rocking back and forth and back and forth. I'm all "YES!" and getting happy when Son of a B**ch if like 3 seconds later he doesn't get up to his feet... look at me.... and then take-off running out of view (since I was down in that drainage)!

I figured no problem, he's probably gonna run 40-60 then pile up.

NOPE!

It took a lot of effort, because other then at the hit site... hardly any blood. But I blood-trailed him 250yds+ ... going down the ravine though, there were decent splashes of blood upon some stones here and there. Even found where he must have climbed up under this Juniper at the bottom of the ravine he ran down into. Was a 2" circle of fresh blood there too. All of it dark muscle blood though. Not pinky frothy lung blood.

So I figure what must have happened is that rushed shot must have hit him on the phalanges of his vertebrae where they stick up by the shoulders. That would account for the wild rapid barrel-roll that occurred mid-air. Never found him, but I'm sure he died that night.

So anyhoo, just do some debugging like I'd do for work. Methodically test and confirm your zero. That eliminates that as something to continue pondering, so you can move on to the other possible theories.

 

[Phil j]

I've never met a 1500yd shooter who did not know there exact muzzle velocity and exact bullet BC and have a drop chart out to a mile

 

[bsnedeker]

OMG...

[Note I am quoting you AZ_Hunter but not picking just on you. Actually thank you for the non gun preaching part]

Ok guys... Let me check the gun "preaching" here.

1. I build guns. I know guns.
2. I check my guns ALL THE DAMN time (scopes, mounts, etc).
3. A sighted in gun doesn't not magically get out of sight unless something mechanical happens to it (like you change something; something gets loose; etc). If it is kept in a padded secured case, everything is tight on it, etc then it should shoot close to what it was sighted in (barring environmental and atmospheric conditions. Regardless of you other beliefs I have done this... sighted in a weapon, jumped it (yes out of the sky) into another location including a rather hard landing - and it shot spot on.
4. I JUST FREAKING SHOT a deer a week before at 200 yards. It hit, where it was aimed and killed the damn deer.
5. Since then it has not been dropped, etc to have changed the sighting in.

SO PLEASE FOR GOD's sake stop being a bunch of self righteous preaching gun fools. Its not my first rodeo. I probably know more about guns, ballistics and can outshoot the lot of you since I HAVE shot things at 1500+ yards; shot under real-life tactical scenarios; and basically have a gift for shooting. (that was mildly self promoting and sardonic for those of you who are hell bent on being trolls).

Those of you who read my original post, and subsequent and have provided non-gun 101 preaching input - GOD BLESS you! and thank you.

The comments about the location might be on as well. They are ground level shots at the top of the shoulder and could have been high. I could be slightly off on the vertical ballistics at a distance with the factory load as I have not chrono'ed it. That said it doesn't explain the 30 yard shot at shoulder (was trying to just drop em in place and take the shoulder out). That's a shot I can make with my hands tied, wearing a too too and bear spray in my eyes.

I do know that the Edge TLR is in the same class as the ELD match of bullets. It should open at some slower speeds. But I also know it is designed for deep penetration so it doesn't pop open super fast. I also know that some of the bullets in that class (no specific vendor, it happens from time to time) can get very small variations in the copper/metal that controls the expansion and can make them expand less (or even way more, and fragment).

Just wondering if I miss the bone and am lung shooting a deer then there is not a whole lot of density to expand that bullet fast enough.

But as AZ_Hunter said, I may have just freaking fallen out of favor with my gun god Mercury and must now sacrifice my oldest child to be back in his favor.

Since it's not in the realm of possibility that you missed due to your gifts then you have three dead deer that you failed to track. Since you've perfected your shooting now you need to work on perfecting your tracking skills so you aren't wasting game.

 

[JBrew]

Some people would rather argue with a stop sign than to take the most obvious piece of advice available, from almost everyone! Why wouldn't you check zero and remove any doubt? Shooting great last week doesn't mean crap this week. Things happen and they aren't always explainable.

 

[Buffinnut]

Wildernessmaster never misses y'all

If you are so confident you and your rifle are infallible why did you bring it up in your original post that you had doubts & why did you continue shooting deer? Why are you here arguing on the internet and not out there finding them? A pencil hole or a giant hole doesn't matter. You say you shot them in the vitals, then that's a dead deer going to waste.

Either there are dead deer out there or you or your gun is off.

It's really simple

 

[Rich M]

LOL! Go check the zero on your gun. Should be the first thing you do to verify the miss. A miss is a big deal to me.

A 175 gr bullet? Will expand and blow thru. No problem there. Your bullet isn't the issue.

I shoot a bit but missed a couple of deer this year cause someone turned my stand around - wasn't used to shooting back over my shoulder off a 2x2 nailed to a tree without having an elbow rest. Missed 2 easy shots (150 and 240 yards) and immediately went to verify zero after verifying no hit on the 2nd one... Drilled target at 200 and said ok, now I know it aint the gun. Shot two on my way back to the stand, went and processed em, back in stand by 1 pm. Missed another one that afternoon - off the damn stick. Not gonna use that rest no more.