To red dot or not?

[Terrapin]

We tried it extensively about ten years ago… to the point of machining receivers down to get the dot as natural as possible. We did a bunch of testing on skeet and 5-stand. Across the board everyone that tried it shot the dot well AT FIRST… then we all lost our ability to shoot & ended up shooting way worse. These are accomplished M class sporting clay shooters.

Something about the dot gives the shotgun equivalent of target panic.

Love a dot on my turkey gun & barnyard commando shotgun. For wing shooting, it does not seem to work.


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[Kurts86]

I have messed around with red dots on a shotgun with clays and certain target presentations work well like a springing teal or some going away shots. It really melts down with crossing shots for me. It’s not there yet generally.

I am 100% dots for turkey hunting.

I do think it’s possible at some point red dots will find a home in clays shooting. Look how fast handgun red dots went from a range toy to standard equipment. I think there are mounting fit issues that are getting better and I also just think there is a tremendous resistance to the idea in the hardcore shotgun community that has held exploration of the idea up.

 

[kokoji04]

That's a nice pic.

Thanks. I had to sneak the MKC in there.

 

[kokoji04]

If you mean for wing shooting you should not be "aiming" anyway.

What do you mean by that? Instinctive shooting?

 

[kokoji04]

We tried it extensively about ten years ago… to the point of machining receivers down to get the dot as natural as possible. We did a bunch of testing on skeet and 5-stand. Across the board everyone that tried it shot the dot well AT FIRST… then we all lost our ability to shoot & ended up shooting way worse. These are accomplished M class sporting clay shooters.

Something about the dot gives the shotgun equivalent of target panic.

Love a dot on my turkey gun & barnyard commando shotgun. For wing shooting, it does not seem to work.


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Reading your comment, kind of reminds of me a phenomenon that happens when you first start archery shooting. You’re just hitting everything no matter what you do, and then over time when you hone in on all your principles, grip, breathing, etc, you start to realize you’re not that good and then start moving through the process of becoming a better archer.

 

[kokoji04]

I have messed around with red dots on a shotgun with clays and certain target presentations work well like a springing teal or some going away shots. It really melts down with crossing shots for me. It’s not there yet generally.

I am 100% dots for turkey hunting.

I do think it’s possible at some point red dots will find a home in clays shooting. Look how fast handgun red dots went from a range toy to standard equipment. I think there are mounting fit issues that are getting better and I also just think there is a tremendous resistance to the idea in the hardcore shotgun community that has held exploration of the idea up.

Exploration doesn’t hurt, sometimes in the outdoor/gun world we are too quick to shut ideas down. Worst case you learn more reasons why you shouldn’t do it.

 

[Macintosh]

What do you mean by that? Instinctive shooting?

It means that your natural eye-hand coordination does not function if you do not have a hard target focus. Aiming entails lining up the gun and the target, and it is extremely difficult to “see” the gun without disrupting your target focus, because the gun has to be moving faster than the target and your eyes are naturally drawn to the fastest moving thing in your vision. Binocular vision is also important for a target focus. . But “aiming”, which includes measuring between bird and bead, necessarily PREVENTS or at a minimum disrupts, maintaining hard target focus. It literally causes you to miss. This is why you routinely hear people say “just look at the bird and break it”, which is about the most common correct but useless advice Ive ever heard on a clays range. Its also why you hear of instructors removing the bead from a students shotgun barrel.
Theres more to shooting a shotgun than just that, but fundamentally it requires a hard focus on the target, and aiming +\- prevents that.

 

[Speaks]

What do you mean by that? Instinctive shooting?

I dont know about instinctive exactly. But shooting a shot gun at a moving flying target you do not aim it using sights. They are in your field of view but you are not aiming with them. Clays, birds, whatever, they always teach not to do that.

 

[Rolando]

Competitive shotgun guys are amusing sometimes. Expecially the mechanical shooter type. Amusing when the skeet throwers are off just a bit

Our local club is buying wired remotes for all the skeet fields because “the wireless remotes have too much delay”…..

 

[hunter14870]

I use one on my sbe2 for waterfowl hunting and turkey hunting. It seems like it helps with those over the head shots while laying in a layout blind, when it's easy to pick your head up off the stock. For all the upland hunting I do, I use a standard ventilated rib because it's easier to pick out a bird in the brush

 

[solar477]

Thanks. I had to sneak the MKC in there.

That's very nice.

 

[wnc-ag]

Turkey hunting I love my red dot.

No way on an upland/waterfowl gun. Both eyes open

 

[kokoji04]

It means that your natural eye-hand coordination does not function if you do not have a hard target focus. Aiming entails lining up the gun and the target, and it is extremely difficult to “see” the gun without disrupting your target focus, because the gun has to be moving faster than the target and your eyes are naturally drawn to the fastest moving thing in your vision. Binocular vision is also important for a target focus. . But “aiming”, which includes measuring between bird and bead, necessarily PREVENTS or at a minimum disrupts, maintaining hard target focus. It literally causes you to miss. This is why you routinely hear people say “just look at the bird and break it”, which is about the most common correct but useless advice Ive ever heard on a clays range. Its also why you hear of instructors removing the bead from a students shotgun barrel.
Theres more to shooting a shotgun than just that, but fundamentally it requires a hard focus on the target, and aiming +\- prevents that.

I think I get what you’re saying. To fully aim and focus, you’re always going to be “behind”/“off” of the moving target. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Macintosh]

I think I get what you’re saying. To fully aim and focus, you’re always going to be “behind”/“off” of the moving target. Thanks for the explanation.

Exactly correct. Acquiring and retaining a hard focus on a moving target is not as simple as it sounds. People practice this stuff, and it’s something that most shooters have a hard time with. Especially as your eyes age. ANYTHING in the way of achieving and maintaining a hard focus on the target at the moment when you shoot is going to degrade your ability to hit targets. It’s hard enough to do it on a clays range, but when you introduce other stuff like brush or snow or a different background, it becomes even more difficult. Having a sight that is specifically designed to encourage aiming I would argue is one of the worst things you could do to becoming a better wing shooter. Not that it can’t be done, it will just make things more difficult and encourage you to develop bad habits, especially in certain situations and presentations.

 

[WoodlandCritter]

Clearly a lot of guys in this thread have zero clue how to use a red dot. The advantage of a red dot is that it is mostly parallax free and in the same focal plane as your target. IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE DOT YOU ARE USING IT WRONG. You absolutely should be shooting BOTH EYES OPEN and with TARGET FOCUS. Whether its a shotgun, rifle, or pistol, this is the correct way to use a red dot. The advantage of a dot is that allows better precision while shooting both eyes open with target focus. I cannot possibly stress that enough. If you stare at the dot that is a training issue and you must practice shooting target focused more.

The dot will give you better feedback on what you are doing with the gun in the moment via your periphery, but it should not be your main focus. To reiterate in case anyone missed it before:

USE YOUR RED DOT WITH BOTH EYES OPEN AND TARGET FOCUS.

 

[Rolando]

You can use big font, but that doesn't make a red dot a good idea for flying targets.

 

[WoodlandCritter]

The louder I am the more right I am

 

[Questionablemorel]

Do it. I put a red dot on my son's rascal.

 

[Macintosh]

@WoodlandCritter it’s still a physical thing on the gun in-between you and the target that is in your field of view, when other “things in your vision” demonstrably affect your ability to focus, even when you are intentionally trying not to focus on them. Even the difference between sky as the background and forest as the background, or lightly falling snow, can significantly and noticeably affect your ability to focus on a target. Stuff in between you and the target is even worse. Look at competitive sporting clays—as far as I know there isnt a single successful high-level shooter using a sight of any kind, including a rds. Its simply a physical thing that’s in the way of your eyes working properly, regardless of the focal plane. When that “thing” is moving, your eye is naturally drawn to it, and it disrupts your ability to avoid focusing on it.
Is there benefit to being more precise? Clearly.
Is there a problem with having stuff in your field of view? Definitely
We can debate whether the detriment is greater or lesser than the benefit, or if there are special cases such as cross eye-dominance where it might make more sense. But there is zero question that there is a problem with having more stuff in between you and the target.

 

[Terrapin]

Clearly a lot of guys in this thread have zero clue how to use a red dot. The advantage of a red dot is that it is mostly parallax free and in the same focal plane as your target. IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE DOT YOU ARE USING IT WRONG. You absolutely should be shooting BOTH EYES OPEN and with TARGET FOCUS. Whether its a shotgun, rifle, or pistol, this is the correct way to use a red dot. The advantage of a dot is that allows better precision while shooting both eyes open with target focus. I cannot possibly stress that enough. If you stare at the dot that is a training issue and you must practice shooting target focused more.

The dot will give you better feedback on what you are doing with the gun in the moment via your periphery, but it should not be your main focus. To reiterate in case anyone missed it before:

USE YOUR RED DOT WITH BOTH EYES OPEN AND TARGET FOCUS.

That was exactly my thinking as well… huge fan of RDS on a pistol, love it on a tactical or turkey shotgun.

Absolute disaster on my clays shotgun and my goose guns. I invested a fair amount of time and money on the theory… really wanted it to work. Circles and dots… both shot well at first & then shot very poorly once the novelty wore off.

But by all means if it works for you, do it. It just hasn’t worked for me or any one that tried it out when I was testing the theory.

PS I have a couple Berettas with machined receivers & Trijicon RMRs if anyone wants to buy


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