To brake or not to brake... that is the question.

[wapitibob]

Im not to concerned with the one maybe two shots in the field. Definitely want protection at the range.

One shot without plugs will ring your bell. Did it once and never again.

 

[f16jack]

I’ll admit, I could have more clearly articulated my opinion in my initial post. It does make it sound like I don’t care. I care and do what I can control, to not impose on the surrounding shooters at the range. I’ll correct my true feelings and what I do. I appreciate you pointing out that it came across poorly. I’ll own that.

I’ll however still stand by my more thorough description in the second post. I do all I can to avoid shooting by anyone else when at the range as described above. I have had muzzle blast in my face, it’s no fun. But if someone comes after I have set up and shoots beside me, that‘s on them. If they don’t mind it, they‘ll stay and keep shooting. If they do mind then I guess they’ll relocate. I can’t control what they do and in this situation, and only this situation where they inserted themself Into a situation that now causes a problem for them, i cannot apologize for that.

Apology accepted. I misunderstood your approach. I agree that we all have individual responsibility to protect ourselves. When someone shows up, aware of what you are doing, and sets up next to you it is on them, not you. It's not that you don't care, it's that they don't care and are accepting risk. As long as we understand that we are responsible for our wake, just like the boats slowing down as they approach fragile shoreline or harbors. We are not alone, and what we do affects others. We and they have responsiblity to be considerate.

 

[bmart2622]

It is absurd to think that it is anyone elses responsibility to take care of your own hearing. Sue someone because they shot a gun while hunting?!?!! Cmon!!! Thats ridiculous!!! Wear double ear protection at the range and take some responsibility for yourself instead of looking for someone to blame!!

 

[f16jack]

It is absurd to think that it is anyone elses responsibility to take care of your own hearing. Sue someone because they shot a gun while hunting?!?!! Cmon!!! Thats ridiculous!!! Wear double ear protection at the range and take some responsibility for yourself instead of looking for someone to blame!!

So, when I'm chatting with a stranger while glassing a deer, and he unexpectedly lets loose a magnum round with a brake on, it's my fault? He had no responsibility there at all? Not even a warning that he might shoot? We all have responsibilities. I take no responsibility for his actions that harmed me. Had I known that this stranger would put down his binocs and then shoot I'd have left the area prior. As is I'm surprised that the blast didn't blow out some of the windows of my truck. This is not ridiculous. I'm not looking for anyone else to blame. I'm asking that folks have a simple awareness of what they are doing and act in a manner that is not harmful to others. Not too much to ask.

If I were hunting with someone and he saw an elk surely he would warn me prior to shooting so that I could protect my hearing. We don't hike and hunt with hearing protection in. We install it just prior to shooting. If he chose to let loose a round right next to me without warning me that would be our last day of hunting together. He's still free to hunt and act as he wishes; just not with me. I'll not place myself in a situation where I'm harmed due to someone else's lack of consideration.

It's not all about me. It's about us and how we work together to ensure we have great experiences in the outdoors. Basic consideration for others falls in this category.

The same basic consideration for others applies in these forums. I've discovered that folks are very civil here. I'm here to learn and share some of my thoughts I've gathered through the years, and enjoy the discourse.

Btw, my brother lives up there in Great Falls near you. We grew up in Kalispell but he's the only one who stayed there in Montana. Still have those rural values.

 

[bmart2622]

How do you know where I live?? So a guy was sitting in your truck and you had no idea he readied his gun and was going to shoot?? That doesn't sound very aware on either part

 

[Thinkingman]

Using a strawman or poor analogy is not a way to communicate. What you just did is akin to saying you were shooting and someone tripped in front of you, and instead of ceasing to shoot, you shot them. It’s a poor analogy and it’s dumb. A better analogy is that you chose to go to a drag race, and they failed to inform you right before the cars took off, that they were about to take off- so your ears got hurt, and now you believe you should sue them. You went to the drag race. Races are loud, it is on you to wear hearing protection.


You go to a range or on a hunt there will be gunfire. Brakes are a fact of life. If you decide to go to a range and fail to account for brakes- that’s on you. There is a difference between someone being a dick; and saying someone is liable for “assualt”, “negligence”, or litigation because they fired a gun while on a range or while hunting an animal.

I am not a victim. I do not blame, or hold others legally liable for me not wearing ear pro while on a range or a hunt.

Okay.
Poor analogy.
To your point, brakes are not a fact of life, they are unnecessary and are known by the users to increase noise and blast in the vicinity.
Does that make the optional use of the brake my problem and the range shouldn't take steps to mitigate the additional noise and blast?
For the record, I shoot a Tikka T3 300WSM without a brake and don't complain about recoil, it's a fact of life.

BTW I have a great story about Don Prudhomme doing clutch testing at IRP after I flagged a Skip Barber race.

 

[bmart2622]

If you go to a public range then yes, its your responsibility to deal with it

 

[f16jack]

My hearing loss was not from gunfire. It

So, when I'm chatting with a stranger while glassing a deer, and he unexpectedly lets loose a magnum round with a brake on, it's my fault? He had no responsibility there at all? Not even a warning that he might shoot? We all have responsibilities. I take no responsibility for his actions that harmed me. Had I known that this stranger would put down his binocs and then shoot I'd have left the area prior. As is I'm surprised that the blast didn't blow out some of the windows of my truck. This is not ridiculous. I'm not looking for anyone else to blame. I'm asking that folks have a simple awareness of what they are doing and act in a manner that is not harmful to others. Not too much to ask.

If I were hunting with someone and he saw an elk surely he would warn me prior to shooting so that I could protect my hearing. We don't hike and hunt with hearing protection in. We install it just prior to shooting. If he chose to let loose a round right next to me without warning me that would be our last day of hunting together. He's still free to hunt and act as he wishes; just not with me. I'll not place myself in a situation where I'm harmed due to someone else's lack of consideration.

It's not all about me. It's about us and how we work together to ensure we have great experiences in the outdoors. Basic consideration for others falls in this category.

The same basic consideration for others applies in these forums. I've discovered that folks are very civil here. I'm here to learn and share some of my thoughts I've gathered through the years, and enjoy the discourse.

Btw, my brother lives up there in Great Falls near you. We grew up in Kalispell but he's the only one who stayed there in Montana. Still have those rural values.

My hearing loss was not from gun fire. It was from a career of flying fighter aircraft. I blame no one for these injuries, they were a occupational hazard that we accepted with no issue, just like getting shot down, having a mid-air, and the rest of the risks. I got off lucky compared to many of my buds who aren't with us today. We don't look for sympathy, or thanks, or anything. We were happy with our lot in life and proud of what we did.

 

[bmart2622]

I drag raced for about 20 yrs of my life, I very rarely wore ear plugs but it also wasnt on the guy pitted next to me to make me aware that he was going to start his car

 

[Thinkingman]

If you go to a public range then yes, its your responsibility to deal with it

Private range. Members only.
The range is taking steps to segregate the guys who need a brake. The people who can shoot without one and are bothered by the blast and extra noise.

 

[Theringworm]

I honestly don’t think any one on this form would intentionally fire a round to do harm to some ones hearing. Whether it be at a public gun range or in a hunting scenario.

Public gun ranges without any rules as to where rifles with brakes can be fired from subjects all to possibly being next to a braked rifle. You should plan accordingly as those are the rules which you will have to follow given that you are there by your choice and have signed a waiver. Some with brakes do go out of their way to prevent said scenario, however they aren’t obligated or required to. If that bothers you, then go during off times, lobby to have a dedicated braked firearm bay or find somewhere else more conducive to your liking. But showing up prepared at the range for all permissible scenarios falls on you.

Situational Awareness is a thing that many don’t have. The shooter with the braked rifle could take note and sit away from everyone, or the guy without a brake that hates being next to a braked rifle can elect not to sit next a braked rifle. Both should be aware, however if there is only one spot open you either sit down and shoot or your don’t. Sure, it can bother you and you can hate it, but nothing that you can do about it other than move. Confronting someone because of something they are doing legally and within the bylaws of the range isn’t going to go well.

When hunting, once again no one purposefully is going to pull the trigger to do harm. The vast majority here don’t hunt with strangers. I have been in this situation hunting before. A moose came in so quick that neither the guide nor I had time to put in our ear plugs as we just heard and then saw him pop into the opening. Our panicked reaction led to us climbing out of the tree and moving into position. He told me to shoot, stuck his fingers in his ears and I, without any ear protection, fired. Yea, it sucked. But given the moment and the opportunity I chose to take it. Friend or stranger, if given the opportunity I would want them to do the same. Obviously being aware and communicating when doing so should be expected. To be entirely blindsided by what your hunting partner is doing however goes back to situational awareness. Yea, I would be upset and would say some thing.

I mean we can blame everyone but ourselves. No one should have to apologize for you having to wear extra or added ear protection at a public range. I don’t say anything when the guy next me is flinging hot ejected brass all over me or my kids from his semi-auto (yes It has happened, he setup after me, and I just picked my stuff up and moved down a couple bays). I move or I deal with it. No one is wanting to do harm. Brakes are legal and functional. Not everyone wants, likes or can afford a suppressor or wants to tote it into the wilderness. At the end of the day we are shooting firearms. Things go bang and make loud sounds. The perception of that sound affects everyone differently. I control what I can and prepare for what I can’t the best I can.

 

[Flyjunky]

I honestly don’t think any one on this form would intentionally fire a round to do harm to some ones hearing. Whether it be at a public gun range or in a hunting scenario.

Public gun ranges without any rules as to where rifles with brakes can be fired from subjects all to possibly being next to a braked rifle. You should plan accordingly as those are the rules which you will have to follow given that you are there by your choice and have signed a waiver. Some with brakes do go out of their way to prevent said scenario, however they aren’t obligated or required to. If that bothers you, then go during off times, lobby to have a dedicated braked firearm bay or find somewhere else more conducive to your liking. But showing up prepared at the range for all permissible scenarios falls on you.

Situational Awareness is a thing that many don’t have. The shooter with the braked rifle could take note and sit away from everyone, or the guy without a brake that hates being next to a braked rifle can elect not to sit next a braked rifle. Both should be aware, however if there is only one spot open you either sit down and shoot or your don’t. Sure, it can bother you and you can hate it, but nothing that you can do about it other than move. Confronting someone because of something they are doing legally and within the bylaws of the range isn’t going to go well.

When hunting, once again no one purposefully is going to pull the trigger to do harm. The vast majority here don’t hunt with strangers. I have been in this situation hunting before. A moose came in so quick that neither the guide nor I had time to put in our ear plugs as we just heard and then saw him pop into the opening. Our panicked reaction led to us climbing out of the tree and moving into position. He told me to shoot, stuck his fingers in his ears and I, without any ear protection, fired. Yea, it sucked. But given the moment and the opportunity I chose to take it. Friend or stranger, if given the opportunity I would want them to do the same. Obviously being aware and communicating when doing so should be expected. To be entirely blindsided by what your hunting partner is doing however goes back to situational awareness. Yea, I would be upset and would say some thing.

I mean we can blame everyone but ourselves. No one should have to apologize for you having to wear extra or added ear protection at a public range. I don’t say anything when the guy next me is flinging hot ejected brass all over me or my kids from his semi-auto (yes It has happened, he setup after me, and I just picked my stuff up and moved down a couple bays). I move or I deal with it. No one is wanting to do harm. Brakes are legal and functional. Not everyone wants, likes or can afford a suppressor or wants to tote it into the wilderness. At the end of the day we are shooting firearms. Things go bang and make loud sounds. The perception of that sound affects everyone differently. I control what I can and prepare for what I can’t the best I can.

Well said.

 

[bmart2622]

I used to go to range requiring a membership, brakes were not against any rules, so in that case yes, its every individuals responsibility to deal with the noise

 

[f16jack]

I honestly don’t think any one on this form would intentionally fire a round to do harm to some ones hearing. Whether it be at a public gun range or in a hunting scenario.

Public gun ranges without any rules as to where rifles with brakes can be fired from subjects all to possibly being next to a braked rifle. You should plan accordingly as those are the rules which you will have to follow given that you are there by your choice and have signed a waiver. Some with brakes do go out of their way to prevent said scenario, however they aren’t obligated or required to. If that bothers you, then go during off times, lobby to have a dedicated braked firearm bay or find somewhere else more conducive to your liking. But showing up prepared at the range for all permissible scenarios falls on you.

Situational Awareness is a thing that many don’t have. The shooter with the braked rifle could take note and sit away from everyone, or the guy without a brake that hates being next to a braked rifle can elect not to sit next a braked rifle. Both should be aware, however if there is only one spot open you either sit down and shoot or your don’t. Sure, it can bother you and you can hate it, but nothing that you can do about it other than move. Confronting someone because of something they are doing legally and within the bylaws of the range isn’t going to go well.

When hunting, once again no one purposefully is going to pull the trigger to do harm. The vast majority here don’t hunt with strangers. I have been in this situation hunting before. A moose came in so quick that neither the guide nor I had time to put in our ear plugs as we just heard and then saw him pop into the opening. Our panicked reaction led to us climbing out of the tree and moving into position. He told me to shoot, stuck his fingers in his ears and I, without any ear protection, fired. Yea, it sucked. But given the moment and the opportunity I chose to take it. Friend or stranger, if given the opportunity I would want them to do the same. Obviously being aware and communicating when doing so should be expected. To be entirely blindsided by what your hunting partner is doing however goes back to situational awareness. Yea, I would be upset and would say some thing.

I mean we can blame everyone but ourselves. No one should have to apologize for you having to wear extra or added ear protection at a public range. I don’t say anything when the guy next me is flinging hot ejected brass all over me or my kids from his semi-auto (yes It has happened, he setup after me, and I just picked my stuff up and moved down a couple bays). I move or I deal with it. No one is wanting to do harm. Brakes are legal and functional. Not everyone wants, likes or can afford a suppressor or wants to tote it into the wilderness. At the end of the day we are shooting firearms. Things go bang and make loud sounds. The perception of that sound affects everyone differently. I control what I can and prepare for what I can’t the best I can.

Sounds good.

 

[Lawnboi]

Now that we are done arguing with each other we should all go contact or representatives and let them know suppressors are good and that we actually want them for our health.

Brakes have their place. A light 7 mag is probably an appropriate place.

I wear ear pro while mowing the lawn and I have no issues shooting a few shots suppressed without ear pro. That about sums it up

 

[mighteywhitehunter]

Brake that sh!t! Carry and use ear plugs. I usually have several sets with me. Spotting the shot is very important to anyone shooting longer distances especially when you are by yourself.

 

[Yotekiller]

I have hearing damage from shooting too much already. Can't stand practicing with a break. You can't be proficient with a weapon if you don't practice.

 

[Tail_Hunter]

F16jack, great summary. The only thing I would change is double protection can offer up to 50db of protection. There is a good test done by the Fort Collins police dept. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2002-0131-2898.pdf

the one thing not touched on yet, is that hearing protection varies greatly depending on how it worn. Tests show most people don’t wear it correctly and only get around 15db on average from foam ear plugs. This is with a plug that can test to 30+ when used correctly. I have verified this on myself with testing. Fully inserted 30+, pulled out 1/4” and protection drops significantly. Honestly a suppressor does so much more to protect our hearing it’s criminal that we can’t just go down to the store and buy one.

I was really hoping to hear some others chime in on this. Any idea why this study shows higher db reduction for both foam plugs and plugs + muff? Is it realistic to expect 50db-ish protection if one carefully inserts 30db+ plugs and wears 20db+ muffs with a solid seal completely around the ear?

 

[Bluefish]

I was really hoping to hear some others chime in on this. Any idea why this study shows higher db reduction for both foam plugs and plugs + muff? Is it realistic to expect 50db-ish protection if one carefully inserts 30db+ plugs and wears 20db+ muffs with a solid seal completely around the ear?

Try it and you can see for yourself. My understanding is that you reduce transmission by covering the mastoid bone. this doesn’t happen with a plug alone.
Also you get more protection than just a muff alone as muffs can be moved off the head by strong shock waves. I have viewed high speed footage from ipil testing with ordinance where the muffs get lifted off the dummy head during the test. By putting a plug underneath you still have protection even if the seal of the muff is broken.
the reason you don’t get a true addition of both protectors is the bones in the head will transmit sound, limiting total protection to about 50 db.
I have tinnitus and plugs alone don’t cut it for me on indoor ranges, rifles, magnum pistols. I get a shift in my tinnitus if I don’t use muffs as well in those cases. I do shoot cowboy action with plugs alone, but those loads are very light. If someone is shooting heavy loads I move further back from the firing line to reduce exposure.

 

[5811]

I was really hoping to hear some others chime in on this. Any idea why this study shows higher db reduction for both foam plugs and plugs + muff? Is it realistic to expect 50db-ish protection if one carefully inserts 30db+ plugs and wears 20db+ muffs with a solid seal completely around the ear?

They somewhat qualify the mannequin measurements by stating that "the mannequin has more insulation of the microphone and thus does not recreate the bone conduction and oral-nasal pathways. However, the peak level reductions may be reasonable for what a human subject would experience."

So there is some speculation there that leads one to believe it isn't 100 percent equivalent. I think when you add in variation in coverage and fit, adding the two together and taking the max number is pretty optimistic. I found it interesting that they measured a significant reduction in protection of muffs if worn with safety glasses breaking the seal, as well. They stated that if safety glasses disrupted the seal, the peak reduction was reduced from 50 to 30.

I think all these things add up to why the OSHA rule is add 5db reduction to the highest rated devices when combining protection. There's just so much variability that they have to play it safe. Can you do better than that if you limit the inefficiencies of fit and use? Sure. But even just resting your muff on the stock while shooting or wearing safety glasses tucked behind your ears might remove a ton of that additional protection.