TMK vs. Eld-M vs. Berger Elite Hunter terminal ballistics

[Brandon.miller.4]

I want to preface this by saying I'm sure most of these questions/comparisons have been discussed in various threads including the small caliber success threads, but it would be nice for an outsider looking in to not have to read the entirety of those threads to find answers specifically regarding these bullet choices.

I seem to notice more "damage" and generally wider wound channels from Eld-M 140s (6.5) than Berger 133s (.25), but this observation could be flawed (small sample size).

For simplicity sake let's say these bullets are leaving the muzzle at 3000fps and shot on North American game out to 800.

For those that have experience driving the same size bullet of these 3 different makes at relatively similar velocities...

What can be said about the wound channel/characteristics?
Which bullets tend to do the most damage? Which tend to fragment more violently, producing a wider wound channel?
Which tend to penetrate deeper?

I realize we are probably splitting hairs here but I couldn't help but notice the Eld-Ms seem more violent than both Eld-x and Berger EH. @Formidilosus and others with large sample sizes feel free to chime in.

 

[doverpack12]

Look up petey308 on LRH, he cuts bullets in half and measures jacket, etc and has studied terminal performance a good amount. He has many really good threads some of which compare these exact bullets.

I can tell you a 130 ELD-M at 260/creedmore speeds of 2850 ish at the muzzle works very well, I’ve used it up to elk many times and got penetration to the offside ribcage with quartering shots. Nothing drops on the spot but you can tell they are hit hard and they don’t go far.
I shoot the 130 Berger OTM AR Hybrid from a 6.5 Grendel with 2390 fps muzzle velocity. That bullet works well at that speed out to 350 or so but I wouldn’t want to push it much faster, it makes a mess as is but kills well. Just deer and antelope with that bullet.

 

[cobbc03]

Look up petey308 on LRH, he cuts bullets in half and measures jacket, etc and has studied terminal performance a good amount. He has many really good threads some of which compare these exact bullets.

I can tell you a 130 ELD-M at 260/creedmore speeds of 2850 ish at the muzzle works very well, I’ve used it up to elk many times and got penetration to the offside ribcage with quartering shots. Nothing drops on the spot but you can tell they are hit hard and they don’t go far.
I shoot the 130 Berger OTM AR Hybrid from a 6.5 Grendel with 2390 fps muzzle velocity. That bullet works well at that speed out to 350 or so but I wouldn’t want to push it much faster, it makes a mess as is but kills well. Just deer and antelope with that bullet.

You getting a full passthrough with the Berger? 123 ELDM, 130 TMK, and 130 CChaos all kill quick but no full passthrough on whitetail, the 120TTSX is the only bullet from the Grendel that I've found to completely pass through.

 

[hereinaz]

I think it is splitting hairs for performance of deer and up. Without a tip to initiate expansion, the Berger hunting line penetrates more and explodes less, relatively speaking. Penetration is an inch or two more, IIRC.

Without experience, you would be hard pressed to judge the difference with same bullet weight and same terminal velocity. I know I haven’t seen a difference in the lower number of animals I have seen. Smaller animals like coyote and antelope, you might be able to tell between them because of differences in penetration. I haven’t hunted them.

I shoot Berger because of bullet consistency, other than that I load for ELDm for cheap buddies who won’t pay for Berger, lol.

 

[sndmn11]

We used some Bergers this year. 30-06 with 180eh, 6.5creed with 140vldh, 6.5prc with 156eol.

The creed took animals at ~200 and ~260 with a whopping zero yards of run. The PRC took one animal, I think maybe at ~15-250yd, and a 50yd run.

The 30-06 took one animal at 80yds with no run, but I shot him three times. The buck flopped over on the first shot and leg quivered for a few seconds, then stood up. Second shot he stood there and looked up to heaven, thru shot he fell over. Here is what was found of the 180eh; I am unsure if this is three bullet bases or two and a core. There were a lot of different wound channels for all of the kills, and all had pretty clean rib cage exterior when skinned, but inside was a lot of mess. We eat the hearts so we shoot for lungs, and a few pieces of shrapnel cut into the diaphragm/liver/stomach, but didn't deviate far enough to get into intestines.

In contrast, my wife Tok an animal with a barnes LRX this year, and there was a fair amount of external rib cage damage with a blood trail for the short run. I think that if the blood trail is important, then a tipped bullet should be the choice ahead of the Bergers.



sides/tops/bottoms

 

[Harvey_NW]

The difference in performance is going to be heavily dependent on impact velocity. High velocity impact I would expect the match bullets to be obviously more devastating, lower velocity impact I would imagine all 3 would produce similar results.

 

[hiker270]

Berger Elite Hunter is my go to bullet for behind the shoulder lung shots. Pretty much will liquify the lungs and drop the animal immediately. Cow elk this year at 185 yds. the lungs were jello, she dropped in her tracks. Bullet performance varies greatly due to impact velocity and where you hit the animal. Any of the bullets you listed would not be my choice for shoulder shots on larger animals.

 

[sveltri]

I shot my buck at 400 yds this year 2930 mv, cut the heart in half (top half liquified), 50 yd run 156 EOL. Hit a rib on entrance and exit, golf ball entrance (in the rib) and maybe 3x larger but more linear (not circular) on the exit There was absolutely no blood, I guess when the pump don't work that happens. Based on the wound channel I saw I don't think I would be too scared of a high shoulder shot with that projectile. I have a sample of 1 though.

 

[sndmn11]

There was absolutely no blood, I guess when the pump don't work that happens.

I think that is the biggest thing people forget when complaining about no blood trails. You need something forcing stuff out of the body to do that.

 

[sveltri]

I think that is the biggest thing people forget when complaining about no blood trails. You need something forcing stuff out of the body to do that.

I embarrassed to admit I was surprised to see no blood until I gave it a little thought.

 

[sndmn11]

I embarrassed to admit I was surprised to see no blood until I gave it a little thought.

It's a bit irritating. I don't have a good base on if an animal's vitals weren't shut down if there would then be a blood trail or not.

 

[Harvey_NW]

It's a bit irritating. I don't have a good base on if an animal's vitals weren't shut down if there would then be a blood trail or not.

I notice the biggest amount of blood dump is from low shots, I imagine it's because it can spill out rather than needing to be pumped. I've seen plenty of higher lung behind the shoulder pass throughs that didn't leave a blood trail, and gave up on thinking that concept was of any value. I prefer the performance of a tipped hunting bullet for different scenarios, shot TGK's this year in 6.5 and 7mm, both performed as expected from 120-691 yards.

 

[sveltri]

It's a bit irritating. I don't have a good base on if an animal's vitals weren't shut down if there would then be a blood trail or not.

I have to believe that if I missed the heart and just hit lungs with that 156 it would have left a blood trail, but I'll never know. But to your point, if there is nothing to push the blood through the wound then I don't think there would be a blood trail.

 

[sveltri]

I notice the biggest amount of blood dump is from low shots, I imagine it's because it can spill out rather than needing to be pumped. I've seen plenty of higher lung behind the shoulder pass throughs that didn't leave a blood trail, and gave up on thinking that concept was of any value. I prefer the performance of a tipped hunting bullet for different scenarios, shot TGK's this year in 6.5 and 7mm, both performed as expected from 120-691 yards.

I think if there is a hole(s) low enough in the chest cavity that pooled blood could gravity drain out then yes, but these things are dying so quickly that gravity isn't having enough time to work.

 

[sndmn11]

I have to believe that if I missed the heart and just hit lungs with that 156 it would have left a blood trail, but I'll never know. But to your point, if there is nothing to push the blood through the wound then I don't think there would be a blood trail.

Maybe, but what makes the heart pump?
If you have a drastic drop in blood pressure to where inadequate blood can reach the brain, maybe the heart doesn't hear from the brain to pump?

 

[sveltri]

Maybe, but what makes the heart pump?
If you have a drastic drop in blood pressure to where inadequate blood can reach the brain, maybe the heart doesn't hear from the brain to pump?

Agreed that the signal must come from the brain and the brain needs oxygen, but there is some surplus that allows for some activity to send said signal. In my case the pump experienced catastrophic failure so signals were being sent to never neverland. My situation didn't experience a drastic drop in blood pressure, but rather an absolute, possibly negative, drop in pressure. We use pumps all the time in my line of work, when the pump shuts off it it not uncommon to experience backflow, but we never see continued flow. Unless gravity comes into play.

 

[Lawnboi]

I can’t speak to anything bigger than deer. But in general, with a limited sample size.

Bergers have a long neck length, and take a while to upset. On deer, from the animals I have seen the bullet is nearly half way through the vitals it seems before upset happens on a a normal broadside shot.

Eldm and tmk behave similarly ime on deer, except the tmk has nearly no neck length, that bullet upsets almost immediately. Making it my choice for deer size game.

 

[ramsdude47]

The heart (at least for a human) does not require electric activity from the brain to pump, it has its own conduction system.

 

[doverpack12]

You getting a full passthrough with the Berger? 123 ELDM, 130 TMK, and 130 CChaos all kill quick but no full passthrough on whitetail, the 120TTSX is the only bullet from the Grendel that I've found to completely pass through.

Yes I am getting pass through with the 130 Berger from 6.5 Grendel both on antelope with more quartering shots and whitetail with some quarter but closer to broadside.
Here is the blood trail from my 2022 whitetail buck. No idea how he made it 50-60 yards but he did. This was a pass through at 275 yards from the Grendel. He had a head start because my first shot cleared a branch from my shooting lane mid canyon.

 

[Lemhi]

I have had mixed feeling about the Berger elite hunters (108 from a 6creed in my case) I took a larger buck at 535 yards and the bullet performed very well. 2nd buck was at 505 and the bullet passed clean through like a pencil and the buck ran 100+ yards. A Montana doe I took with it was DRT at 195. The last deer I shot with that rifle was 140 yards and again the bullet penciled through and after the initial impact knocked the buck over he ran 2-300 yards. There were all behind the shoulder lung/heart shots where the old 6 Remington I grew up on running sierra 100 btsp never failed. Debating switching bullets due to the 50/50 performance of the Bergers in 6mm specifically.