Tipping

[cuerro viejo]

May I ask, what animals do your guide, what state(s) and what is your age? You may be making my point with your responses. Lets say you are an elk guide in New Mexico hunting out of a lodge. Lets say you live in Texas. You drive to the lodge the day before the client arrives (two day before season opener). The outfitter assigns you a new hunter, lets say the OP, and tells you the area he wants you to go into opening morning. You have hunted the area and are familar with the area, but have done zero pre-season scouting (this happens a lot, not necessary you, but guides in general with elk). The client arrives the next day. You meet your client, have a good evening and hunt the next day. On the first day of the season your client kills his first bull with a muzzleloader (280 inches) two hours into the hunt. Lets up the game and say, you were in unit 16A and the client has paid $21,000 for the landowner tag and $11,000 for the hunt.

By 4 PM on the first day, you and the client are back at the lodge. If I understand you correctly, that client owes you a “Minimum” of $3,200. Is that what your are saying?

What you are describing is a 11K hunt, the unit tag is a separate transaction to a random landowner, ( in which outfitter already added his mark up for facilitation also), so 1100 min tip to camp. If you want to come back better tip more

It would be a 32k hunt if it was a LO ranch only tag, as they are most likely probably not taking or hunting the ranch on draw tags. They would hunt whole unit on draw tag. Basically its 32k for an exclusive private land hunt, no different then Outfitter allocation tag for his allotment. Like stone sheep. Price is built in for the quality and the hunt itself. If this was a 32k hunt on a private ranch or allotment, yes tip 3200 min.

The speed of which you kill, just shows that the guide had done his work prior to your arrival. The quality of the animal is on you. Exception would be if he called it a 350 and it was 300, on ranch they are hunting 350's and normally passing 300-330.. I would probably still tip here too

If I was in this situation you described and on a exclusive private land hunt(32k) then I would pay the camp( Guide, packer, Cook) a break out of ATLEAST $3200(10% min), regardless what I choose to shoot. If I wanted to come back, more. To me the tip really starts after 10%.

 

[WVELK]

Ok so I get where you are going with this and I absolutely disagree with FAAFO's opinion that 10% is a minimum. However, I disagree with your point in this specific scenario. If someone buys a tag in 16A and that client makes the decision to pull the trigger on the morning of day 1.....why should the guide be punished? Size of the animal doesn't matter at that point. The client decided to pull the trigger and end the hunt early. Presumably the guide was prepared and had planned on being there working all week to get a bull for the client. Luck (or skill of the guide) put them in position to take an animal that the client is happy with. Why punish the guide? To go back to an earlier point you made about guides not scouting and just showing up shortly before the hunt....why would they if you are going to shortchange them if they have a bull located before the season starts??

All good points, and questions. Let me address in the order they came. The guide is only being “punished” if you assume that 10 percent is a minimum and in my hypothetical the client did not tip 10 percent. I never said what was tipped, if anything. I only asked FAAFO if this guide was entitled to at least 10 percent as a minimum which seems to be his position. I chose this fact pattern because it is the one with which I am most familiar - elk guides. I did not say what if anything the guide said as to shoot or not shoot. If you are in unit 16A in New Mexico, and a guide puts you on a 280 inch bull the first day and does not tackle you and keep you from shooting a 280 inch bull two hours into the hunt, he is lazy or incompetent. No elk guide worth a nickel is going into 16A as I described. Great guides will figuratively give their right arm to work in that unit. Next, you would be shocked at the number of elk guides in NM that do no scouting. Compare that to a wilderness hunt for elk in Wyoming where your guide has problem packed camp back in many miles and been there 7-10 days before the hunt start. Further he has to work hard to find elk. That is not the case in the Gila. My point is the wilderness guide has done a heck of a lot more work for his tip than the guide in my scenario. The guide in my scenerio has done the bare minimum. He brought you water to your table in a restaurant and never retuned to the table.

 

[WVELK]

Difficult hunts seem to always lead to higher tips. Does that answer your question? Or would you like me to give you an example to counter your example?

Like pointed out above the tag price shouldn’t be factored in to the price of your guided hunt. Sounds like the 10% industry standard would put the tip around 1100 not 3200.

Nice try diddy.

My friend I don’t know where you work as a guide or where you are getting these huge tips from, but it sure isn’t New Mexico hunting elk. The price of my hypothetical hunt was $32,000 which would have been the total paid to the outfitter. In that state, outfitters buy and then sell 99 percent of the landowner tags. And, you avoided all of my questions by tipping less than 4 percent. Why don’t you just share your experiences with us? You provided many responses early on and tried to educate the OP as to some hypothetical or magical industry minimum standard of 10 percent. Just give us more details so we can make more educated decisions on our future hunts, please.

 

[WVELK]

What you are describing is a 11K hunt, the unit tag is a separate transaction to a random landowner, ( in which outfitter already added his mark up for facilitation also), so 1100 min tip to camp. If you want to come back better tip more

It would be a 32k hunt if it was a LO ranch only tag, as they are most likely probably not taking or hunting the ranch on draw tags. They would hunt whole unit on draw tag. Basically its 32k for an exclusive private land hunt, no different then Outfitter allocation tag for his allotment. Like stone sheep. Price is built in for the quality and the hunt itself. If this was a 32k hunt on a private ranch or allotment, yes tip 3200 min.

The speed of which you kill, just shows that the guide had done his work prior to your arrival. The quality of the animal is on you. Exception would be if he called it a 350 and it was 300, on ranch they are hunting 350's and normally passing 300-330.. I would probably still tip here too

If I was in this situation you described and on a exclusive private land hunt(32k) then I would pay the camp( Guide, packer, Cook) a break out of ATLEAST $3200(10% min), regardless what I choose to shoot. If I wanted to come back, more. To me the tip really starts after 10%.

With all due respect, you obviously do not hunt elk in NM. As noted above, darn near every landowner tag in NM is sold to the outfitters as soon as they are available to the landowners. Why? Because it is a guaranteed easy sell for the landowners, and it is the only way the outfitter can guarantee that he has hunters. If the outfitter relies on the draw to sell hunts (the overwhelming majority of which are to non-residents) then he goes bankrupt soon. The payment to the outfitter in my hypothetical is $32K, been there done that. Many times.

 

[RdRdrFan]

10% is industry standard. Your results may vary and honestly I don’t care. Hunts I’ve been on have averaged well over 10%. So in my world the standard is higher. But like I said above I hate the tipping process with clients. Always the most awkward part, even wiping their ass isn’t as bad.

I'm not on here enough to be able to tell if you are always a pompous blowhard or if it is just a special day for you. But I have gone on more guided hunts than you claim to have personally guided. If your personality face to face is anything like you are on this thread, I call BS on you averaging over 10%. Because nobody I know would put up with your arrogance and condescending tone. I've hunted with guides like you before.....but never for more than a day. Life is too short to surround yourself with a-holes.

 

[cuerro viejo]

With all due respect, you obviously do not hunt elk in NM. As noted above, darn near every landowner tag in NM is sold to the outfitters as soon as they are available to the landowners. Why? Because it is a guaranteed easy sell for the landowners, and it is the only way the outfitter can guarantee that he has hunters. If the outfitter relies on the draw to sell hunts (the overwhelming majority of which are to non-residents) then he goes bankrupt soon. The payment to the outfitter in my hypothetical is $32K, been there done that. Many times.

In all due respect you are confused on tags.

In NM I have bought 5 LO Unit wide vouchers and 2 Ranch only. There are 2 KINDs of landowner tags in NM, One is ranch only, the other is Unit. I have bought 3 Unit tags direct from land owners and 2 outfitter proxied. The only time the tag is part of the hunt is on a private land hunt using ranch only voucher. Example, If I book Wedding Cake Ranch or Vermejo, that hunt is 25+-k and includes tag, Doesn't matter if you have a draw tag or voucher, cost is the same. I would tip based off the 25k, The tag is part of the hunt/access. Now if I buy a Unit voucher in 36 for 12k, I'm not tipping the landowner 10% nor the outfitter 10% on what he is reselling the tag for. I tip off cost of the outfitting. If you book a hunt with an outfitter using a Unit tag voucher, all he did was proxy the tag, in fact he may have even also market it up. Why would you tip off that? You wouldn't. You tip % to outfitter of what you paid state for the tag also when you draw? No

I look at a concession tag same as private ranch only tag. Its part of the hunt. If I book a 100k BC RMBH, the tip is based off whole price.


in you example if that was a 32k hunt on Vermejo YES I tip based off 32k, If that hunt was Unit Voucher and Outfitter, I would tip based off the Outfitted cost not voucher tag. I have hunted this very way when I didnt draw a tag. I tipped 20% of the Outfitter Cost, not 20% of Tag+ Outfitter.

 

[S.Clancy]

I don't understand the whole "tipping is a necessity". How bout outfitters just pay people actual wages and pass that on via the hunt cost?

I understand a tip if you feel someone is going above and beyond, but they should be getting paid enough by there employer to not depend on it. If they aren't, get a new job.

 

[gbflyer]

Best tip for guides:

Stop posting opinions on forums.

 

[WVELK]

In all due respect you are confused on tags.

In NM I have bought 5 LO Unit wide vouchers and 2 Ranch only. There are 2 KINDs of landowner tags in NM, One is ranch only, the other is Unit. I have bought 3 Unit tags direct from land owners and 2 outfitter proxied. The only time the tag is part of the hunt is on a private land hunt using ranch only voucher. Example, If I book Wedding Cake Ranch or Vermejo, that hunt is 25+-k and includes tag, Doesn't matter if you have a draw tag or voucher, cost is the same. I would tip based off the 25k, The tag is part of the hunt/access. Now if I buy a Unit voucher in 36 for 12k, I'm not tipping the landowner 10% nor the outfitter 10% on what he is reselling the tag for. I tip off cost of the outfitting. If you book a hunt with an outfitter using a Unit tag voucher, all he did was proxy the tag, in fact he may have even also market it up. Why would you tip off that? You wouldn't. You tip % to outfitter of what you paid state for the tag also when you draw? No

I look at a concession tag same as private ranch only tag. Its part of the hunt. If I book a 100k BC RMBH, the tip is based off whole price.


in you example if that was a 32k hunt on Vermejo YES I tip based off 32k, If that hunt was Unit Voucher and Outfitter, I would tip based off the Outfitted cost not voucher tag. I have hunted this very way when I didnt draw a tag. I tipped 20% of the Outfitter Cost, not 20% of Tag+ Outfitter.

You are right, there are two types of landowner tags (unit wide and ranch only). I have unit wide tags that I sell to outfitters each year. Now, in my experience hunting with 4 different outfitters in that state, the larger outfitters gobble up a large percent of the unit wide tags and some ranch only tags. And, while outfitters may differ, all of the large outfitters with which I have either hunted or work with frequently sell the hunt and the tag. You write one check to the outfitter. Which gets me back to my original point, if you are writing one check to the outfitter for tag and hunt, our unknown guide friend is not going to tip based on the tag and hunt price. He is only tipping based on the hunt price.

My who purpose in dealing with this make believe fairytale land where there is a minimum 10 percent tip rule is set the record straight for a guy that has saved 5 years to go on a hunt, ends up wiht a guide that does the bare minimum, trash talks the last hunter in camp and may have been late to leave camp 5 out of the seven days of the hunt. Even if that guy kills and animal, he should not be ashamed to tip less than 10 percent. I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I have been dirt a$$ poor when I was younger and farily weathy by most standards. I have seen great guides and guides that were not worth the powder it would take to blow them up. I have seen blue collar guys who tipped their guide far more than they could afford. I have seen guys fly in on private jets and tip less than $500 on a $50,000 hunt. The point is there is good and bad on all sides, hunter, guide and outfitter. Tipping is an individual’s decision and varies from person to person and should be evaluated on a case by case basis. There is no “service charge” added to your outfitters invoice requiring a 10 percent tip. And, if a guide tells you he alwasy gets 10 perecent, you need another guide as soon as you can get one. That is the LAST thing I want to hear from a guide, and the last thing I would have told a client when I guided.

 

[WVELK]

I don't understand the whole "tipping is a necessity". How bout outfitters just pay people actual wages and pass that on via the hunt cost?

I understand a tip if you feel someone is going above and beyond, but they should be getting paid enough by there employer to not depend on it. If they aren't, get a new job.

This is a great point, and what I thought for years. However, the outfitters I am close to really rely upon clients to give them feedback as to guides, and are generally of the belief that if the guide does not have skin in the game he or she will not work as hard. The tip is the skin in the game. I will say my elk outfitter added skin in the game after about 9 days of a 14 day season. Hunting conditions were tough, the guides and clients were not connecting and the outfitter offered $2,500 bonus to the next guide who got his client a bull. Then he offered $2,500 as a bonus for bulls taken over so many inches, and $2,500 for something else. I just forget what the last bonus was for.

 

[WVELK]

I know how outfitter tags work. Doesn’t mean you factor that into the cost of the hunt in regards to tipping. One of my buddies leaves AK and guides there in Oct. tips are less but the hunts are less than AK

Well knowing a buddy who guides a few weeks in October does not give one a wealth of information. First, a Dessert Bighorn hunt in NM and “some” elk hunts in NM will go for more than $50,000. I have been on multiple Alskan Brown Bear hunts. The most expensive was $50K. Are there hunts in Alaska for moose, sheep, goat, bear or any other critter that run more than $50K?

 

[WVELK]

I think the goat hunt that Bruce offers in Alaska on his boat in late season (November) may be a bit above $50K.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

Guides have a tough job, if you use a guide tip them well. If you can't afford to tip your guide you have no business to go on these "hunts". Of course there are bad apples and I am not supporting tipping a guide that is worthless, but if they do their job you need to do your job.

 

[wind gypsy]

I don't understand the whole "tipping is a necessity". How bout outfitters just pay people actual wages and pass that on via the hunt cost?

I understand a tip if you feel someone is going above and beyond, but they should be getting paid enough by there employer to not depend on it. If they aren't, get a new job.

If one reads this thread or others, they understand a guide relies on tips for their income. IMO it's just a form of performance/effort based compensation for the guide, they are incentivized to give you a greater effort. An outfitter could just charge 10-15% more and tell folks not to tip the guide because that compensation is built into their pricing structure but why would that be any better than just planning to give a 10-15% tip if the guide puts in a good effort and is good company? Beats not having the opportunity to tip 0 or little if the guide sucks.

Not to mention the whole cash and taxes angle.. which might mean overall hunt cost could be a little less with tipping vs outfitter building it into the price.

 

[keller]

Lot of various opinions here. How about the guy that works 2 or 3 jobs has a family but still has a dream of a bucket list hunt. Has saved the money 3 times. The first two times family had medical issues. So that's where the money went.the third time he has the money saved over a 15 year period he finds a discounted booking. Talks to his wife and she says I can't hold you back from your dream.so he books it works his ass off for 6 months. At work and training. Shows up to Alaska. Flys into camp asks to help cook breakfast .filter water.help in camp whatever is needed is up in am ready to go. Other hunter in camp is a wealthy man talks about his clients connections etc. 300 lbs can't walk. Asks about tip? They will be happy with anything. Working man left a bigger tip than he could afford. Wealthy man left nothing.

 

[wind gypsy]

Lot of various opinions here. How about the guy that works 2 or 3 jobs has a family but still has a dream of a bucket list hunt. Has saved the money 3 times. The first two times family had medical issues. So that's where the money went.the third time he has the money saved over a 15 year period he finds a discounted booking. Talks to his wife and she says I can't hold you back from your dream.so he books it works his ass off for 6 months. At work and training. Shows up to Alaska. Flys into camp asks to help cook breakfast .filter water.help in camp whatever is needed is up in am ready to go. Other hunter in camp is a wealthy man talks about his clients connections etc. 300 lbs can't walk. Asks about tip? They will be happy with anything. Working man left a bigger tip than he could afford. Wealthy man left nothing.

Sounds like a good man with a good wife - more valuable than any number of sheep hunts.

 

[Sneaker]

It’s definitely a pay for performance structure, which is beneficial most of the time to most parties. The outfitter wants guides that are good and motivated to do their best and earn every penny and make happy customers. The outfitter wants customers that are prepared, will work hard and that reward good hard working guides. If everyone is good, the system works good. Get a bad guide, things fall apart a little, get a bad customers, things fall apart a little.

On a sheep hunt for the guide alone I feel like 10% for the guide alone is definitely in an appropriate range if he was good and hard working. If he wasn’t both of those thing I would consider giving less.

 

[DavidMark]

OP- good luck on your sheep hunt and tip what you feel is right! I understand 100% where you are coming. I actually had this conversation with my ole man the other day. It's definitely a grey area or can feel like it anyways. I know of a dall hunt where 2 guides were tipped (by 2 hunters) little over %10 each. Both guides were great through whole trip and sheep were taken. One guides was highly appreciative for the tip and the other didn't seem so as much. Nothing was said from the guide but it was easy to "read the room" if you will.
I'm not expert but I think what makes it difficult at times is hearing how much some clients tip way over 10%. Even heard once of a client buying a sheep hunt for his guide(crazy but good for the guide and good for the hunter having the means). One reference for a dall sheep hunt said if you can't tip your guide 10,000 you don't need to go. So I can see if a guide gets multiple 20% tips a year, a 10% isn't very satisfying. Just because I can afford it doesn't mean that I should just potentially double a tip. Most of everyone can tip a waitress 100% but that's not the standard unless you want her #.

Also I look at it as other mentioned about low cost hunts vs high $. A stone hunt vs a dall, I think it's safe to say almost 2 times as much for a stone. Haven't hunted stone yet but I know people who have and it can be very similar to a dall. The guide is doing to same work for same amount of time theoretically.

So it can make you scratch your head at times but aleast it's the hunters the decision in most cases. I know a few recent markhor hunts that demanded 10,000 tip at the end of the hunt. Which is an expensive hunt and tips should be higher but can catch you by surprise demanding 10,000 cash before you leave.

 

[alaska_bou]

I have had outfitters tell me that overtipping can be a problem, especially in third-world countries, as it can easily condition the packers, guides, trackers, etc, to work harder for one perceived demographic of clients than another.

 

[Cyril]

I have had outfitters tell me that overtipping can be a problem, especially in third-world countries, as it can easily condition the packers, guides, trackers, etc, to work harder for one perceived demographic of clients than another.

It is definitely a thing in Africa. I went there once almost 20 years ago and my guide was also the outfitter. He established very clear ranges of what to tip each person, tracker, skinner, other guide, cook, cleaning.