Timber Production Executive Order

[Gila]

To be specific. What you are suggesting and the straw man arguments you make regarding harming fish and hunting is EXACTY the tactics that have driven the last 50 years of industry destruction. and to what end I ask ?
Deer/ elk / fish populations have fallen harder under this management . Tree topping, moonscape making fires have increased exponentially, and entire swaths of rural areas have been left with no way to support themselves save service industries to yuppies who vacation from the cities.

The Unrealistic thing is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I for one am willing to say this has been effed up for 50 years and I’m done , log it , mine it, use it , but make sure we take care of it. In 50 more years we can come to the table and compare.

Those are real common sense issues! We have taken great strides to manage and regulate logging on public lands in the last 50 years. If you really read these EOs and you have any idea how government works, you will understand that those EOs tend to circumvent some or maybe more, of the regulating bodies that have been in place for many years. Some of these reporting agencies have been left with less staff to respond to the EOs. Yes, we need logging, no question about that. But we need to recognize the “science” that allows decision makers to ensure that we properly regulate the industry. No matter what the argument is, we need healthy forests to keep hunting and fishing, it’s that simple.

https://www.webapps.nwfsc.noaa.gov/assets/29/5465_06152004_125211_ec6506.pdf

————————————
Status of research
Within the Northwest Fisheries Science Center’s (NWFSC) Watershed Program, scientists are study-
ing the degree to which freshwater habitats affect abundance and population growth of salmonids in
order to assist in developing rational recovery strategies for listed salmon species. Ongoing research
projects include studying the degree to which stream side buffers of different widths effectively protect
stream ecosystem processes from logging, and examining the effects of different land-use protocols and the presence or absence of juvenile salmonids on food web dynamics in small streams.

In addition, various stream side buffer treatments are being evaluated with respect to the survival and growth of trees and understory vegetation retained in buffer zones. Additional aspects of the research entail monitoring the impacts of fine sediment deposition and bed scouring on chinook salmon redds (i.e., the spawning grounds or nests of the fish), evaluating the relationships between coarse-scale habitat, land-use characteristics, and salmon populations in three large watersheds (the Snohomish River basin in Washington, the Salmon River basin in Idaho, and the Willamette River basin in Oregon), predicting relative salmon abundance in areas lacking fish data, and determining how low numbers of spawning salmon affect nutrient dynamics in streams and the productivity of salmon populations in the Snake River basin.
—————————————

 

[Customweld]

Those are real common sense issues! We have taken great strides to manage and regulate logging on public lands in the last 50 years. If you really read these EOs and you have any idea how government works, you will understand that those EOs tend to circumvent some or maybe more, of the regulating bodies that have been in place for many years. Some of these reporting agencies have been left with less staff to respond to the EOs. Yes, we need logging, no question about that. But we need to recognize the “science” that allows decision makers to ensure that we properly regulate the industry. No matter what the argument is, we need healthy forests to keep hunting and fishing, it’s that simple.


—————————————

Science yes. Stopping everything in the courts because there were 2 T's and an I that didn't get crossed and dotted has got to stop.

 

[Yoteassasin]

Those are real common sense issues! We have taken great strides to manage and regulate logging on public lands in the last 50 years. If you really read these EOs and you have any idea how government works, you will understand that those EOs tend to circumvent some or maybe more, of the regulating bodies that have been in place for many years. Some of these reporting agencies have been left with less staff to respond to the EOs. Yes, we need logging, no question about that. But we need to recognize the “science” that allows decision makers to ensure that we properly regulate the industry. No matter what the argument is, we need healthy forests to keep hunting and fishing, it’s that simple.

https://www.webapps.nwfsc.noaa.gov/assets/29/5465_06152004_125211_ec6506.pdf

————————————
Status of research
Within the Northwest Fisheries Science Center’s (NWFSC) Watershed Program, scientists are study-
ing the degree to which freshwater habitats affect abundance and population growth of salmonids in
order to assist in developing rational recovery strategies for listed salmon species. Ongoing research
projects include studying the degree to which stream side buffers of different widths effectively protect
stream ecosystem processes from logging, and examining the effects of different land-use protocols and the presence or absence of juvenile salmonids on food web dynamics in small streams.

In addition, various stream side buffer treatments are being evaluated with respect to the survival and growth of trees and understory vegetation retained in buffer zones. Additional aspects of the research entail monitoring the impacts of fine sediment deposition and bed scouring on chinook salmon redds (i.e., the spawning grounds or nests of the fish), evaluating the relationships between coarse-scale habitat, land-use characteristics, and salmon populations in three large watersheds (the Snohomish River basin in Washington, the Salmon River basin in Idaho, and the Willamette River basin in Oregon), predicting relative salmon abundance in areas lacking fish data, and determining how low numbers of spawning salmon affect nutrient dynamics in streams and the productivity of salmon populations in the Snake River basin.
—————————————

Oh wow "common sense" lets dog whistle away !
C'mon do you really think any of these "processes " are doing a lick of good? The velocity of information is entirely to fast these days if something is fishy I'm sure we will catch wind of it. Can you propose anything except keeping the status quo that we all know isn't working ?
I think Steve said it the best when debating a vegan .
" you may care about one deer more , but I care about all the deer more " or close .
you come across caring about one buck , one elk , one stealhead but I care about all of them . All the forest , all the fish , all the cervids , all the people .

 

[durangobrad]

So where should logging occur? I live in the heart of a logging community and we just had one of the best steelhead runs in decades. I also have an active job where every morning there is a herd of 40-50 elk hanging out feeding on slash.

Where was this best steelhead run in decades? Feel free to send it to me via pm...

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

[wowzers]

Where was this best steelhead run in decades? Feel free to send it to me via pm...

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Clearwater River.

 

[Gila]

Science yes. Stopping everything in the courts because there were 2 T's and an I that didn't get crossed and dotted has got to stop.

Quite a few times the Forest Service has simply ignored the science for whatever reason and they got sued for it. If Congress mandates and funds a management plan, those “laws” need to be followed. And those funds aren’t to be used for any other purpose. Having said that there have been times when court actions have stopped all wood cutting in the affected National Forests which resulted in catastrophic results. The following hurt the people of New Mexico to the point that firewood, which is a primary source of heat here, has become unaffordable. It was a real emergency but the President did nothing….Congress did nothing!

Court ruling halts all woodcutting in forest - Silvercity Daily Press

Communities adjacent to the Gila are bracing for the worst after all woodcutting in the Gila National Forest was suspended last week. The suspension came as defendants in a lawsuit — the U.S. Forest Service and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service — respond to a ruling by U.S. District Court Judge...

www.scdailypress.com

 

[Customweld]

I’m all about protecting things that need it, but let’s be honest. If we had all the bs bureaucracy and red tape that’s in place now, a hundred years ago, we’d still be a 3rd world country. Reading by coal oil light and dying of dysentery.

 

[signing off]

I'm in the Ozarks. Log mills are around still. Drove past 2 today. They produce railroad ties, staves for whiskey barrels and charcoal in this region. One owner was trying to get a wood pellet mill going but ran into some roadblock.
The State conservation department is relatively insulated from political manipulation. If that's even possible. Their latest greatest goal in the public forest is harvest and return to open canopy and woodland environment. Even a savannah habitat in certain places. That's what I am hearing needs to be done on our federal land.
Yes? No?

 

[westsloper]

The State conservation department is relatively insulated from political manipulation. If that's even possible. Their latest greatest goal in the public forest is harvest and return to open canopy and woodland environment. Even a savannah habitat in certain places. That's what I am hearing needs to be done on our federal land.
Yes? No?

“Ideal” conditions vary dramatically from one forest type to another. Ponderosa pine forests are often managed with the goal of creating a fairly open, “park-like” understory. Spruce-fir forests are usually not thinned to that degree. I’ll let people with more experience out east speak to those conditions.

An interesting issue is that management for fuels reduction and wildfire mitigation doesn’t always look the same as management for timber production.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I'm in the Ozarks. Log mills are around still. Drove past 2 today. They produce railroad ties, staves for whiskey barrels and charcoal in this region. One owner was trying to get a wood pellet mill going but ran into some roadblock.
The State conservation department is relatively insulated from political manipulation. If that's even possible. Their latest greatest goal in the public forest is harvest and return to open canopy and woodland environment. Even a savannah habitat in certain places. That's what I am hearing needs to be done on our federal land.
Yes? No?

Yeah that open canopy woodland/savannah is what they’re shooting for. If you’ve hunted areas that are already converted to that ecosystem, it’s wild how much more game-dense it is than the typical overcrowded hardwood stand in the Ozarks. I pretty much only hunt areas that are heavily thinned and recently burned now.

Regarding stave mills, there have been a couple that opened recently in Arkansas to meet demand for the whiskey boom, and overall I think we’re moving in the right direction over the last decade. But aren’t those railroad tie and stave mills pretty specific in their demands for timber? Something like a pellet or pulp mill would probably make the cuts that are mostly “junk” way more enticing.

 

[durangobrad]

Clearwater River.

That's great, but I don't think a run of hatchery raised fish has much bearing on measuring a healthy ecosystem.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

[Yoteassasin]

That's great, but I don't think a run of hatchery raised fish has much bearing on measuring a healthy ecosystem.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Well it’s a hell of a start . Are you advocating restoration to the point no hatchery’s are needed . If so I think we will all need to get to
The Delorean cause we will need to back in time .
I’m 100% happy with strong hatchery returns supplementing a sustainable wild population
Are you on board ?

 

[durangobrad]

Well it’s a hell of a start . Are you advocating restoration to the point no hatchery’s are needed . If so I think we will all need to get to
The Delorean cause we will need to back in time .
I’m 100% happy with strong hatchery returns supplementing a sustainable wild population
Are you on board ?

I didn't say that at all. Maybe re read my post. Measuring how well an eco system is doing because hatchery fish are doing great is like saying our economy is doing great because we got a bunch of free money that the fed just printed.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

[Flyjunky]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think causes more sediment, a 100k acre fire or a 2500 acre selective timber harvest?

Exactly!

I’ve been in the salmon/steelhead fight for 35 years and it just blows my mind how short sided some people are.

Case in point, the North Umpqua river and its world renowned steelhead fishery. A couple years ago a particularly bad fire roared through the canyon and burned all the way to the rivers edge. All those trees that provided shade to keep water temps down is gone. There was more silt in the river that next fall than I have ever seen due to logging.

Logging can/does benefit both fish and wildlife, it’s not a bad thing if done correctly.

 

[Customweld]

Exactly!

I’ve been in the salmon/steelhead fight for 35 years and it just blows my mind how short sided some people are.

Case in point, the North Umpqua river and its world renowned steelhead fishery. A couple years ago a particularly bad fire roared through the canyon and burned all the way to the rivers edge. All those trees that provided shade to keep water temps down is gone. There was more silt in the river that next fall than I have ever seen due to logging.

Logging can/does benefit both fish and wildlife, it’s not a bad thing if done correctly.

I've was up in the Lava and Paddock fire scars a few weeks ago. Just the normal run off has the creeks running either chocolate milk or straight black ash. It's going to be ugly when the real run off starts. And you're right about the lack of shade. It'll be 50-60 years before anything is able to provide any beneficial shade. That's if it doesn't burn again. Neither of these fires are in steelhead habitat, but definitely destructive to the trout.