Timber Production Executive Order

[hadda]

I used to be against a ton of logging. Once I moved to NW Montana it has changed my mind. Parts of the forest are completely overgrown and have little habitat for elk. I hope they approach it in a way that minimizes impact on surrounding waterways.

Every year the forest service does a study and puts up a plan to log areas only to be sued by local environmental groups, this puts everything on hold and no forest management happens.

If we keep shutting down any and all types of resource extraction it will push the agenda of selling public land even further.

What youre describing is regrowth after logging that is likely not being managed well. Old growth is generally nicely spaced, easy to walk through. Wildfire also has a role to play but has been too suppressed for too long

 

[Gila]

Yes but you immediately fired back with “no logging”

You don’t appear to come from a bases of wanting to make something modern work.

You appear to be a preservationist.

i am not against logging…All I have stated or meant to anyway, is that wood extraction has an impact on the environment and the economy. Those impacts need to be understood and monitored. I have only suggested that some of these EOs are going too fast and impose what I consider to be unrealistic deadlines, on some of the regulatory bodies that monitor those impacts.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

The loss of mill capacity and few markets for low grade material is going to a serious roadblock on getting the EO implemented. Here in the east our export markets are going to take a serious hit from retaliation tariffs. Out west there are thousands of acres of dead trees and mature aspen. You need something like a high capacity stud mill, chip market or a wood pellet manufacture to deal with 8 to 12 inch dead lodgepole pine and mature aspen. 10s of millions of dollars of investment with multiple years of construction. USFS can put up a billion feet for sale. They are going to have a lot of sales with no buyers.

 

[Hnthrdr]

The loss of mill capacity and few markets for low grade material is going to a serious roadblock on getting the EO implemented. Here in the east our export markets are going to take a serious hit from retaliation tariffs. Out west there are thousands of acres of dead trees and mature aspen. You need something like a high capacity stud mill, chip market or a wood pellet manufacture to deal with 8 to 12 inch dead lodgepole pine and mature aspen. 10s of millions of dollars of investment with multiple years of construction. USFS can put up a billion feet for sale. They are going to have a lot of sales with no buyers.

Maybe log homes will become vogue again? Haha

 

[Customweld]

Maybe log homes will become vogue again? Haha

Hell, I'd take a lodgepole cabin!

 

[Jason Snyder]

The hyperbole on both extremes is funny. Yeah, a 100k acre fire is going to cause sedimentation and road washouts. Logging doesn’t contribute the ash back to the soil and also highly predisposes the cut to noxious weeds. A 2500 acre clearcut isn’t likely to stop a wildfire under extreme conditions.

Fire and logging are entirely different animals. They both have goods and bads. The kind of logging necessary to reduce fuel loads in the woodland/urban interface is going to be much different than traditional clearcuts.

 

[Wrench]

Perhaps Potlatch can share some advice with USDA and BLM. In Idaho Potlatch has logging figured out.....the roads are great, the carrying capacity is great and they promote multi use.

I'm all for wilderness type areas, but we need to be consuming timber and making habitat.

 

[wowzers]

The hyperbole on both extremes is funny. Yeah, a 100k acre fire is going to cause sedimentation and road washouts. Logging doesn’t contribute the ash back to the soil and also highly predisposes the cut to noxious weeds. A 2500 acre clearcut isn’t likely to stop a wildfire under extreme conditions.

Fire and logging are entirely different animals. They both have goods and bads. The kind of logging necessary to reduce fuel loads in the woodland/urban interface is going to be much different than traditional clearcuts.

How much thistle do you see in firescapes post burn?

Why do IMT’s spend so much time putting in shaded fuel breaks during incidents?

 

[Hnthrdr]

How much thistle do you see in firescapes post burn?

Why do IMT’s spend so much time putting in shaded fuel breaks during incidents?

Yeah noxious weeds are thick in a lot of big burns in Co…

 

[rogerdoger]

What youre describing is regrowth after logging that is likely not being managed well. Old growth is generally nicely spaced, easy to walk through. Wildfire also has a role to play but has been too suppressed for too long

Some may be that case. Some are regrowth from fires, some are just thick ass woods. The old growth of Missions, Cabinets, and the Swans are horrendous to hike of trail.

 

[Jason Snyder]

How much thistle do you see in firescapes post burn?

Why do IMT’s spend so much time putting in shaded fuel breaks during incidents?

Sure there is thistle. I live near a lot of private timberland that is a monoculture of spotted knapweed.

 

[wowzers]

Sure there is thistle. I live near a lot of private timberland that is a monoculture of spotted knapweed.

I spend a huge amount of time getting weed washes done and setting up equipment to get inspected to be weed free. Then I go to the FS office and their lawn is a sea of spotted knapweed and I just shake my head.

 

[Yoteassasin]

i am not against logging…All I have stated or meant to anyway, is that wood extraction has an impact on the environment and the economy. Those impacts need to be understood and monitored. I have only suggested that some of these EOs are going too fast and impose what I consider to be unrealistic deadlines, on some of the regulatory bodies that monitor those impacts.

To be specific. What you are suggesting and the straw man arguments you make regarding harming fish and hunting is EXACTY the tactics that have driven the last 50 years of industry destruction. and to what end I ask ?
Deer/ elk / fish populations have fallen harder under this management . Tree topping, moonscape making fires have increased exponentially, and entire swaths of rural areas have been left with no way to support themselves save service industries to yuppies who vacation from the cities.

The Unrealistic thing is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I for one am willing to say this has been effed up for 50 years and I’m done , log it , mine it, use it , but make sure we take care of it. In 50 more years we can come to the table and compare.

 

[KHNC]

I feel like timber management is only about politics. Some people like 'untouched' old growth ecosystems, others want to maximize short term ROI by cutting them, some people want lands managed as tree farms cut every X or Y years or when timber prices are high, some people want larger buffers around streams. It's all politics.

Personally, I'd like all the federal timber lands managed for optimal deer/elk hunting, but one can dream, right?

They should cut about 80% of the timber in SE Wyoming. Geezus, the deadfall is bullshit!

 

[Jason Snyder]

They should cut about 80% of the timber in SE Wyoming. Geezus, the deadfall is bullshit!

Not a real high demand for big stands of lodgepole.

Lodgepole forests evolved to have higher frequency stand clearing fires.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Lodgepoles in our country have a lifespan of 100-150 years. Then they lay down and start over - all at the same time. Most get to the massive size of 8-10". Pine beatles can speed up to program. I have been in a couple places where I see evidence of 300-400 years of that cycle. Logs stacked up 8-9 ft high for miles. A couple places I sawed through took three of us three days to saw out 200 yds. Often we reached a point of running out of a place to get rid the cut wood. Fires reset the evolution but within a few years there is a stand of 2" trees too thick to crawl through. They are not a climax species except at certain elevations.

 

[pirogue]

I’ve lived in areas in the Pacific NW, where most of the forest are federal lands, and I’ve lived in the South, where most of the forest lands are private. I know that Southern Yellow Pine timber used to bring a lot more money than it does now. But one thing with the industry is similar to being on a cattle drive in the 1800’s. Cowboying(then) and driving a log truck is something you do when you can’t do anything else.

 

[Customweld]

Lodgepoles in our country have a lifespan of 100-150 years. Then they lay down and start over - all at the same time. Most get to the massive size of 8-10". Pine beatles can speed up to program. I have been in a couple places where I see evidence of 300-400 years of that cycle. Logs stacked up 8-9 ft high for miles. A couple places I sawed through took three of us three days to saw out 200 yds. Often we reached a point of running out of a place to get rid the cut wood. Fires reset the evolution but within a few years there is a stand of 2" trees too thick to crawl through. They are not a climax species except at certain elevations.

I like to cut it for firewood. Mix it in with red fir . A 12", 80 year old LP has pretty tight growth rings and burns good.

 

[wowzers]

I like to cut it for firewood. Mix it in with red fir . A 12", 80 year old LP has pretty tight growth rings and burns good.

Not as much creosote either. I found what would have probably been the new Idaho Champion LP one time. It was 36" at DBH and the thing it had going for it was the crown spread was huge. It unfortunately lost a couple limbs over the winter before I could get it officially measured.

 

[Customweld]

Not as much creosote either. I found what would have probably been the new Idaho Champion LP one time. It was 36" at DBH and the thing it had going for it was the crown spread was huge. It unfortunately lost a couple limbs over the winter before I could get it officially measured.

Damn, that is a huge LP! I've noticed the creosote issue as well. If I mix red fir and lp together it's usually a feathery build up. Red fir alone makes more of a flaky build up.