Timber Production Executive Order

[Gila]

a massive increase in lumber prices to change that.

That’s a given….

 

[Customweld]

This is a pretty good video. The Lava Fire burned an area that had suffered a Fir Tussock Moth outbreak about 8 years ago. It wreaked havoc on the white and red fir stands. It had ran it's course a few years ago. Rather than going in and salvaging what was left, it was left alone and blew up in the fire last fall. The fire moved 40k acres in one day. The logging project that is in the video was a sale prior to the fire and was being worked before the fire started.

 

[Gila]

Why does everything has to be so extreme and polarizing now days?

The first mention of logging and its off there gonna moon scape it and kill all the fish.

It’s not the 70s there has been a lot learned in the last 50 years on management of all things.

Large scale fire does a lot of damage as well.

You should see the giant log decks stacked up to stop a big fire local to me.
How great is impromptu completely un planned logging to stop a fire?

How bout we use some Ukraine money to subsidize select thinning so the logger seeing it profitable and the forest can be managed in a balance?

The Gila Trout and the Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout are in trouble….habitat and sediment are some of the primary causes. I hope my grandchildren can fish for these trout. I hope all of you and your grandchildren can fish for these trout. People tend to think that wood and fish in the sea are infinite, however that is not the case. The problem with these extraction EOs is that the regulatory bodies are being tossed out the window. People and animals don’t matter. This is regression in environmental policy, the likes of which we have never seen before.

 

[Customweld]

The Gila Trout and the Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout are in trouble….habitat and sediment are some of the primary causes. I hope my grandchildren can fish for these trout. I hope all of you and your grandchildren can fish for these trout. People tend to think that wood and fish in the sea are infinite, however that is not the case. The problem with these extraction EOs is that the regulatory bodies are being tossed out the window. People and animals don’t matter. This is regression in environmental policy, the likes of which we have never seen before.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think causes more sediment, a 100k acre fire or a 2500 acre selective timber harvest?

 

[BRTreedogs]

The Gila Trout and the Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout are in trouble….habitat and sediment are some of the primary causes. I hope my grandchildren can fish for these trout. I hope all of you and your grandchildren can fish for these trout. People tend to think that wood and fish in the sea are infinite, however that is not the case. The problem with these extraction EOs is that the regulatory bodies are being tossed out the window. People and animals don’t matter. This is regression in environmental policy, the likes of which we have never seen before.

I think you are emotionally charged and illogical like most if not all antis.

I don’t think you have any idea who loggers are or how logging works in the 21st century.

There’s no point in continuing conversations with someone so one sided.

 

[Speaks]

I have learned that logging and what the pros/cons are varies massively by region. In NE MN and NW WI we have a healthy amount of logging on county land but federal does not get nearly as much as it should. I am looking forward to additional grouse habitat. I have no informed opinion on what should happen in other places.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Can we submit units for review?...I know a couple in WY where the deadfall is so ridiculous the elk don't even go in there anymore. I would also like to submit some areas in Mon NF. There a few places in the Mon NF with no doe season, WV has the highest rate of deer related automobile collisions, but because the NF is all old growth and the canopy blocks anything growing on the ground not great deer populations in areas the NF.

Yep, a deer's (and elk's) world is between 0 and 4 ft off the ground. Aside from seasonal mast production, they have no use for mature timber, unless the basal area is reduced enough to allow sunlight in.

 

[Hnthrdr]

The Gila Trout and the Rio Grande Cutthroat Trout are in trouble….habitat and sediment are some of the primary causes. I hope my grandchildren can fish for these trout. I hope all of you and your grandchildren can fish for these trout. People tend to think that wood and fish in the sea are infinite, however that is not the case. The problem with these extraction EOs is that the regulatory bodies are being tossed out the window. People and animals don’t matter. This is regression in environmental policy, the likes of which we have never seen before.

GB cuttthroat are all but extinct in Co, some of the major fires in the last few years have decimated already struggling populations… what really knocked our native trout off in Co though, is Browns, brookies, and rainbows… no one wants to have that convo though. Cameron Peak Fire in NoCo pretty much killed off the entire poudre river for 3-4 years only reason there are fish in it now is extensive restocking efforts, it’s still going to be a shadow of the fishery it was for another decade. I am all for ensure the land isn’t moonscaped by man or fire. I think we can come together and be logical about Forest management. As far as species that are almost extinct, largely from being out competed by non native introduced game, I’m not sure what to do there? Would love to save them, but sometimes things will be relinquished to the annals of history, just the way it goes, I just want to ensure that there are trout around for my kids and grandchildren someday and that we are allowed to hook them, which seems like will he under attack in Co in no time the way this state is these days…

 

[westsloper]

The lack of sawmill infrastructure is a big deal. Lots of reasons for the decline of sawmills. Choose the one that fits your political biases - there's probably some truth in most explanations. The biggest issue is that making money in the timber industry is really hard, and ramping up logging operations requires a significant financial investment from the timber companies. They have to purchase equipment, bring in contractors, train up new people, etc.

I wouldn't fret about the environmental impacts too much. Not yet, at least. I worked on a forest where the pressure to cut was very high, and even there we weren't destroying streams or anything. There are always some impacts, but we can mitigate them. Both the Forest Service and most loggers don't want to wreck the ecosystem. Besides, an untreated forest has the potential for even worse environmental outcomes than a logged one (fire, insects & disease outbreaks, etc).

Finally, I believe that timber production is a perfectly valid use of public lands. It's the original reason for the Forest Service existing. I hope we can meet the needs of the American public while still maintaining high standards for environmental protection.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

Against my better judgement I’m going to jump into this. I’ve spent 44 years, since I was 19, learning and practicing forestry. Managed a large public forest. Worked on hundreds of timber sales so here it goes. I also grew up hunting on and still hunt on a national forest so I understand that end of things as well.

The EO will be next to impossible to implement. When it fails it will be blamed on the deep state. Reality is it will fail because timber sale design , layout, cruising etc is done by early career foresters and seasonal employees who just happen to mostly no longer have jobs. It’s a function of burning boot leather as opposed to electrons. Yes electrons make it easier, but there is still a large amount of field time involved.

Vast differences between the Sierras, Casacdes, Rockies, and the south and the east. Vast differences within each subsection, vast differences between ecosystems. One thousand sizes still won’t fit all.

A properly designed and administered timber sale should put very litttle sediment into a stream, regardless of which part of the country you are in. Poorly designed and administered sales can kill a stream with sediment. Want to take a guess what is going to happen when the targets aren’t met.

You need good solid roads to move material to market. Roads are expensive. Roads are a major source of sediment, stone running surfaces reduce the sediment coming off of the roads.

It’s far more cost effective to have natural regeneration as opposed to planting trees. Public lands are managed on a completely different set of objectives as say Weyerhaeuser’s. Getting that Regan takes time and advanced planning. Something else the EO doesn’t address. Then on federal side the is National Forest Planning Act and several other pieces of law they need to follow.

It’s far more complex than I have even the remote desire to get into here. In a previous thread someone who worked with Musk in the past said he mode of operation is to push the engineeering and break things and then make the fix. Fairly easy to do when it’s math and physics. Not so easy to do in a biological system with hundreds of different species all interacting with one another. We like to say forest management isn’t rocket science, it’s far more complicated.

 

[Customweld]

The lack of sawmill infrastructure is a big deal. Lots of reasons for the decline of sawmills. Choose the one that fits your political biases - there's probably some truth in most explanations. The biggest issue is that making money in the timber industry is really hard, and ramping up logging operations requires a significant financial investment from the timber companies. They have to purchase equipment, bring in contractors, train up new people, etc.

I don't know how they can make any money hauling logs as far as they do. I grew up across the street from a Boise Cascade mill My dad ran the head rig there, I pulled green chain one summer there when I was in high school. The amount of trucks coming into the log yard was incredible. Those trucks would pull 3-5 loads a day. Now they are hauling logs to mills 2-3 hundred miles away.
The investment and time to bring a sawmill online is prohibitive and won't be achieved in the time that this administration has. In 4 years, it will whiplash back to gridlock and red tape.

 

[willfrye027]

This could be a great opportunity to improve summer range mule deer habitat and increase carrying capacity.

Speaking for my local herds..we’re probably close to carrying capacity (at least the bios think so) but the herd is a fraction of what it was during the 1960-1990s. There is so much old growth timber and so little browse on the summer range it’s just sad. Not to mention the hot burning fires that leave a moonscape.

I am cautiously optimistic about this EO and hopefully forest managers can figure out how to make this a net positive for habitat

 

[Hnthrdr]

I’m not an expert, but would some think if there are tariffs in place to protect or foster lumber in the U.S. then maybe the costs become less prohibitive to get a saw mill running and it could be a profitable enterprise or maybe there will be innovation in the space? I think protective tariffs and cutting of red tape can go a long way to making things economically viable again…

 

[Pony Soldier]

I think most of us are on the same page. Growing up most every county had a mill in each of the larger towns. A large part of that was because of a sustainable timber supply. Someplace in the late 60s, the forest service changed from sustainable management by district to by region.

Following that many districts had 100 years of trees cut in a very short period. Clearcutting started as coastal FS employees transfered from the coast. There you get a good sawlog in 75 years. In the mtn interior you get an equivalent log in 250 years.

Without logs mills closed down and only the big mills were left. They started one trip or two trips per day. Libby mills hauled from the Bitterroot and Bitterroot mills hauled from near Libby. It would have saved them money to just exchange sales.

Clearcuts were planted with p-pine but the habitat was for alpine fir and they all died. I worked on inventory crews on that.

I remember a president called for increased sales to bolster the economy. It was either Carter or Nixon but for many districts there was nothing left. Then the enviros started with the lawsuits and all federal sales were shut down.

In the following insanity the private land got the hell cut out of it. Now we are back to repeating the original insanity.

We need to get back to short term roads for the sales. Long term planning and management. Minimal employment at the districts with work done by contract or seasonal employment. Honest silvaculture, selective logging where applicable and the end to the enviro lawsuites which are meant to stall everthing till it dies.

It's going to take 75-100 years to get many of these areas back into sequence burning them to the dirt isn't going to solve the problem. Politics isn't the cure in resource management - it's a major piece of the problem.

 

[Gila]

GB cuttthroat are all but extinct in Co, some of the major fires in the last few years have decimated already struggling populations… what really knocked our native trout off in Co though, is Browns, brookies, and rainbows… no one wants to have that convo though. Cameron Peak Fire in NoCo pretty much killed off the entire poudre river for 3-4 years only reason there are fish in it now is extensive restocking efforts, it’s still going to be a shadow of the fishery it was for another decade. I am all for ensure the land isn’t moonscaped by man or fire. I think we can come together and be logical about Forest management. As far as species that are almost extinct, largely from being out competed by non native introduced game, I’m not sure what to do there? Would love to save them, but sometimes things will be relinquished to the annals of history, just the way it goes, I just want to ensure that there are trout around for my kids and grandchildren someday and that we are allowed to hook them, which seems like will he under attack in Co in no time the way this state is these days…

I think hybridization is a problem just about everywhere. There have been some successful “culling” of non-native species in NM. Also, some areas that have the least impact on native species are stocked with trout to give people an opportunity to fish for those non-native trout. We need to keep our hatcheries going. One of the primary RG cutthroat hatcheries is on tribal lands. They sell fishing permits to the public to help fund the hatchery. Also, if you are hunting the Gila and want to toss a fly or two, get a Gila Trout Stamp. They don’t cost anything, but we get funding for the hatchery.

 

[Customweld]

I hope something gets done. We lose millions of board feet of timber, breath smoke and watch hundreds of thousands of acres incinerated every summer. That is a terrible way to manage such a valuable resource.

 

[Gila]

I think you are emotionally charged and illogical like most if not all antis.

I don’t think you have any idea who loggers are or how logging works in the 21st century.

There’s no point in continuing conversations with someone so one sided.

I have been involved with wildlife management plans for different states and various Federal Agencies. You don’t just flip a switch and open the flood gates. It takes time to task scientists and economists to come up with studies that go into management plans that can be presented before the policy makers. If the policy makers find that the management plans should be implemented, Congress or State legislatures then fund those management plans. EOs that circumvent resource management plans can be risky ventures that could jeopardize not only our wild life but our economy as well. Emotion has nothing to do with it, a bit of common sense could help though.

 

[S.Clancy]

I'm all for logging, but an EO isn't going to stop the BLM or USFS from being sued into oblivion by environmental groups. This happens with virtually every proposed timber sale. In MT, it happens on a decent amount of state lands too. The law needs to be addressed to keep people from endlessly suing to stop logging.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I think hybridization is a problem just about everywhere. There have been some successful “culling” of non-native species in NM. Also, some areas that have the least impact on native species are stocked with trout to give people an opportunity to fish for those non-native trout. We need to keep our hatcheries going. One of the primary RG cutthroat hatcheries is on tribal lands. They sell fishing permits to the public to help fund the hatchery. Also, if you are hunting the Gila and want to toss a fly or two, get a Gila Trout Stamp. They don’t cost anything, but we get funding for the hatchery.

Never fished NM, but if I ever make it down that way I would love to.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I have been involved with wildlife management plans for different states and various Federal Agencies. You don’t just flip a switch and open the flood gates. It takes time to task scientists and economists to come up with studies that go into management plans that can be presented before the policy makers. If the policy makers find that the management plans should be implemented, Congress or State legislatures then fund those management plans. EOs that circumvent resource management plans can be risky ventures that could jeopardize not only our wild life but our economy as well. Emotion has nothing to do with it, a bit of common sense could help though.

Yes but you immediately fired back with “no logging”

You don’t appear to come from a bases of wanting to make something modern work.

You appear to be a preservationist.