Timber Production Executive Order

[Sccritterkiller]

Where do you get that info?

Poorly worded, my apologies. I corrected the info...TX definitely has more deer but nobody is around to run them over.

 

[mt terry d]

What, we’re not going to just let it burn?

Have they no compassion for the fire tenders, er, firefighters?!

 

[maxx075]

Poorly worded, my apologies. I corrected the info...TX definitely has more deer but nobody is around to run them over.

Being from WV, it does seem like we have the most, but mainly because they're all condensed into such a small area. WV does have the highest deer collision rate though.

 

[MallardSX2]

In my area of the East, the issue is that the cuts often aren’t profitable, so contracts go unrewarded or at least go out to bid several times before they get takers. “The government” is pushing hard for thinning in this case, but the logging industry can’t support it as fast as it’s needed.

We probably need either government support for small timber mills or a massive increase in lumber prices to change that.

It's the govt (or the people pulling the strings of the politicians) who are making the harvest of the timber next to impossible.

It's a revolving door of red tape bull$hit permits and approval processes with logging on govt land.

Logging companies want the timber but simply don't want the hassle of dealing with the government.

To be honest, why would they want to deal with government if they didn't have to? Nobody wants to deal with move govt in their lives. Hence the formation of DOGE.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

Being from WV, it does seem like we have the most, but mainly because they're all condensed into such a small area. WV does have the highest deer collision rate though.

Correct and very few are in the southern Mon NF. The canopy from a 100 yr old oak will choke out everything under it. State timber guy that walked my property call them 5 acre canopies...Most of the white oaks that old are now hollow in the middle and have little to no mill value, can't even use them for whiskey barrels.

 

[MallardSX2]

Correct and very few are in the southern Mon NF. The canopy from a 100 yr old oak will choke out everything under it. State timber guy that walked my property call them 5 acre canopies...Most of the white oaks that old are now hollow in the middle and have little to no mill value, can't even use them for whiskey barrels.

They should have been cut 30-50 years ago. Been saying this for years. It would have been better to have cut trees and left them rot on the ground than to do what has been done to the national forests in the east. Now, when they cut, the regeneration is going to take a looooong time compared to what it typically would due to the lack of undergrowth.

Meanwhile, they (NFS) want to blame the deer for eating git all. LMFAO.

A lot of people are naive to the fact that prior to us "settling the country", forests naturally burned and that was a good thing.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

They should have been cut 30-50 years ago. Been saying this for years. It would have been better to have cut trees and left them rot on the ground than to do what has been done to the national forests in the east. Now, when they cut, the regeneration is going to take a looooong time compared to what it typically would due to the lack of undergrowth.

Meanwhile, they (NFS) want to blame the deer for eating git all. LMFAO.

A lot of people are naive to the fact that prior to us "settling the country", forests naturally burned and that was a good thing.

The last time the NF was timbered around me was early 1900s before it was designated NF in 1920. It's full of 100 yr plus hollow oaks, and zero browse underneath.

 

[cnelk]

This pic of me was taken in 2017 while hunting in Wyoming.

It has since burned to moonscape.

Too bad it wasn’t logged.

So, what’s worse for erosion?
Logging or fires?

 

[MallardSX2]

The last time the NF was timbered around me was early 1900s before it was designated NF in 1920. It's full of 100 yr plus hollow oaks, and zero browse underneath.

Because the deer ate it all!

Or at least that's what everyone is being told....lol

 

[MallardSX2]

This pic of me was taken in 2017 while hunting in Wyoming.

It has since burned to moonscape.

Too bad it wasn’t logged.

So, what’s worse for erosion?
Logging or fires?


View attachment 848684

Always impressed me how effortlessly elk move through that deadfall.

 

[Ozarkansas]

It's the govt (or the people pulling the strings of the politicians) who are making the harvest of the timber next to impossible.

It's a revolving door of red tape bull$hit permits and approval processes with logging on govt land.

Logging companies want the timber but simply don't want the hassle of dealing with the government.

To be honest, why would they want to deal with government if they didn't have to? Nobody wants to deal with move govt in their lives. Hence the formation of DOGE.

I think the red tape issue varies by region, here in AR we have plenty of roads built already, and the nature of Ozark terrain means that logging is generally done on areas where erosion/water quality are less of a concern. The main red tape I see on contracts applies to road maintenance, and that won’t go anywhere unless we want the forest service to prep/repair the roads instead.

So I’m definitely not going to disagree and argue that red tape isn’t an issue, but in my area the biggest hurdle (based on my understanding at least) is the small number of mills and the trucking costs to get timber to them.

 

[MallardSX2]

I am struggling with the same issue here at my house. I have poplar trees that are literally 100 feet tall shading out the undergrowth. I have been dropping them and cutting them on my mill as fast as I can, but the reality is I am going to need to drop some and just leave them laying. I hinge cut 100 trees a year on my tiny 40 acres.

If it's crooked or a "garbage tree" I hinge cut it for deer habitat and to promote growth.

 

[MallardSX2]

I think the red tape issue varies by region, here in AR we have plenty of roads built already, and the nature of Ozark terrain means that logging is generally done on areas where erosion/water quality are less of a concern. The main red tape I see on contracts applies to road maintenance, and that won’t go anywhere unless we want the forest service to prep/repair the roads instead.

So I’m definitely not going to disagree and argue that red tape isn’t an issue, but in my area the biggest hurdle (based on my understanding at least) is the small number of mills and the trucking costs to get timber to them.

I agree.


National forests want loggers to stone the roads pre and post logging operation.
You see what a load of 2's costs these days and how far those go? lol

It's simply too much expense and red tape. They should be required to grade the roads back and that's it.

 

[ianpadron]

Anyone who hunts, fishes or traps should be concerned about logging. It affects entire eco-systems. Steel head, Salmon and trout are very much affected by erosion and sediment in streams and rivers. It affects the plants that elk, mule deer, moose, bear etc…that provide food for these animals. But it goes from top to bottom of the food chain. It is scientific wild life management of public lands. Everyone should have concerns…

What's your house made out of?

 

[Hnthrdr]

This pic of me was taken in 2017 while hunting in Wyoming.

It has since burned to moonscape.

Too bad it wasn’t logged.

So, what’s worse for erosion?
Logging or fires?


View attachment 848684

Many such places in Co. your feet won’t touch dirt for 100 yards or more… last I checked the big fires wipe out way more fish and will delete entire river and streams of life more so than select harvest, come to think of it I see a lot of deer and elk in timber cuts and on the edges of timber cuts…

 

[Pony Soldier]

Within the mtn interior, prime habitat exists where there is a mosaic of open ground and dense cover. The game prefers the boundaries. Vast barren areas post burns are no differant than a multi- drainage clearcut.

Clearcuts are the cheapest for logging. Burn to the dirt policy has the least risk for the Forest Service. The concept of multiple use is a nice concept but has been extremely difficult for the government to pull off.

The 100% natural management of the environmental movement is an all or nothing program. The lawsuites need to go away as long as the agencies are following the approved forest plan. The single management plan coast to coast doesn't work. Local plans to match topography and climate make more sense.

The next issue is how do we fix the mess that has been created over the last 50 years. I think the frequent transfer of personal in forest management has also contributed to this however I have seen a couple instances where ego driven management has stayed way too long.

I would like to see us go back to long term local timber management without politics, economics, and emotion involved driving wild fluctuations in timber and habitat management.

 

[ianpadron]

Within the mtn interior, prime habitat exists where there is a mosaic of open ground and dense cover. The game prefers the boundaries. Vast barren areas post burns are no differant than a multi- drainage clearcut.

Clearcuts are the cheapest for logging. Burn to the dirt policy has the least risk for the Forest Service. The concept of multiple use is a nice concept but has been extremely difficult for the government to pull off.

The 100% natural management of the environmental movement is an all or nothing program. The lawsuites need to go away as long as the agencies are following the approved forest plan. The single management plan coast to coast doesn't work. Local plans to match topography and climate make more sense.

The next issue is how do we fix the mess that has been created over the last 50 years. I think the frequent transfer of personal in forest management has also contributed to this however I have seen a couple instances where ego driven management has stayed way too long.

I would like to see us go back to long term local timber management without politics, economics, and emotion involved driving wild fluctuations in timber and habitat management.

Amen!

 

[wowzers]

I agree.


National forests want loggers to stone the roads pre and post logging operation.
You see what a load of 2's costs these days and how far those go? lol

It's simply too much expense and red tape. They should be required to grade the roads back and that's it.

It's far worse than that. I've seen Spec road packages appraised at like $300k blossom into $2.5M dollar packages.

 

[wowzers]

Anyone who hunts, fishes or traps should be concerned about logging. It affects entire eco-systems. Steel head, Salmon and trout are very much affected by erosion and sediment in streams and rivers. It affects the plants that elk, mule deer, moose, bear etc…that provide food for these animals. But it goes from top to bottom of the food chain. It is scientific wild life management of public lands. Everyone should have concerns…

So where should logging occur? I live in the heart of a logging community and we just had one of the best steelhead runs in decades. I also have an active job where every morning there is a herd of 40-50 elk hanging out feeding on slash.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Why does everything has to be so extreme and polarizing now days?

The first mention of logging and its off there gonna moon scape it and kill all the fish.

It’s not the 70s there has been a lot learned in the last 50 years on management of all things.

Large scale fire does a lot of damage as well.

You should see the giant log decks stacked up to stop a big fire local to me.
How great is impromptu completely un planned logging to stop a fire?

How bout we use some Ukraine money to subsidize select thinning so the logger seeing it profitable and the forest can be managed in a balance?