this will be unpopular i am sure

[tipsntails7]

The moose tags issued have dropped by 1/2 in WY since the wolf has taken off out here. HMMMMMM Wonder Why.

Had a yearling bull moose get abandoned this last fall and he made it all through the winter by himself and 3 weeks ago found him dead. Killed by a wolf, ass was eaten out.

A wolf was shot outside of Evanston WY this year. That’s only 20miles to the S to the Utah boarder and 5 miles to the west. These things will be all across the west, better get the mule deer and sheep hunting in now it will eventually fade away, maybe not in my life time but what about my kids and if they have kids?????

What year did they "Take off"? Also could it possibly be the 90% success rate hunters had, or the 100+ cows and calfs that were taken yearly since 2007?

 

[squeekieslayer]

at least in my area there are far less cow tags available than last year. I have not done studies or counted heads myself, I talk to friends, hunters, outiftters and guides... They are feeling it big time... despite what the numbers say.

Trust me, I am not completely anti-wolf. I feel like they are here to stay so they better be managed correctly.... if I had the choice to go back and stop you bet I would be for it. I just feel like welcoming them to a state full of libs that will not likely manage them properly is not something I feel is a great choice. To each his own.

My best friends wife is currently finishing her masters in Yellowstone studying elk migration patterns, number and changes from the wolves.... it has been great to talk to her, she is a "wolfie" and has dispelled MANY or most of the misguided ideas I had about wolves. But even she admits that tight management is crucial.

Joe

 

[Schleppy]

Tipsntails7,

I understand completely what you are talking about in your original post. My entire life has been spent hunting in Minnesota, where we have as many, or more wolves than the rest of the country combined. I remember going to college in Wisconsin when everybody was running around buying handguns to protect themselves from wolves. Heck, I've shared the woods with them since I could walk and never carry any more than my hunting weapon, whether that be a bow or a rifle.

The wolves do take a bit of a toll on the deer during the bad winters. But, if we get a couple mild winters in a row, the deer bounce right back. Right now they are hurting a bit with some nasty winters strung together. Everyone seems to blame everything on the wolves, without looking at other factors. For example, 10 years ago the northern part of the state was thick with deer after some warm winters. The DNR had very liberal bag limits for a couple years in a row and many people mowed down the deer, literally shooting as many as they could. The wolves were around then but nobody seemed to notice. Then, with lowered deer populations due to hunting, a couple hard winters hit and deer populations dropped even more. All of a sudden the sky is falling and the wolves are eating all of the deer!

I love hunting alongside wolves and wouldn't give it up for anything. I love listening to them howl when I'm sleeping or walking to my stand. I love hearing the pack communicating with the scout mid morning when they are reuniting for the day. I enjoy every chance I get to see them. I'm sure over the course of my life I'll shoot a few less deer because of wolves, but it's worth it to me.

And, yes, I enjoy wolf hunting, too, and took this 120 lb male during Minnesota's inaugural wolf season in 2012.

Long story short, you aren't alone in your opinion!

View attachment 16436

I call BS. Here's a link to the article about the emergency feeding of deer in Northern MN http://www.startribune.com/local/245274831.html

 

[NoWiser]

Call BS on what?? I specifically said that the deer population dropped. There are still deer to be had, you just might need to hunt more than 2 or 3 days to see one. They'll bounce back with a couple mild winters, but until then it's slim pickings. The population would still be hurting even without wolves, given the last few winters.

 

[Schleppy]

BS on the entire comment. Ten years ago is when the wolves began to show up in WI and decimate the deer herds. Yes there were always a few around as you have stated and hearing or seeing one was a big deal, but that big deal quickly turned into concern when the wolf population exploded. Hunters had been shooting lots of deer for several years in the north woods but that wasnt the real culprit in the collapse of the herds. The deer were sustaining the hunter harvest, but could not stand up against the predation of fawns in the spring and the deer herds were being slaughtered while vulnerable in their winter yards. I get where you're coming from, I like nature, I dont want to see any animal go extinct but I also think that the welfare of humans should take a front seat to the protection of something that has no real value in this day and age. I choose to take part in nature and therefore any animal that is competing against me is the enemy. Humans do a fine job of managing the deer and elk herds otherwise why do we have all these regulations? Why does it take 20 years to draw an elk tag in some areas? Is it because we dont do a good enough job of keeping the prey species in check? And as a Wisconsinite I will defend all those people running around buying guns to protect themselves from the wolves. When the population of wolves exploded they quickly became very bold because people werent allowed to shoot them. We werent allowed to even kill a wolf that was in the process of killing a pet or any livestock. We had to wait for the wolf to finish and then call the USDA who would send out a rep who would verify the kill was made by wolves and then reimburse the owner for the value of the animal. I lived with one of the USDA reps in 2002/03. People had their dogs killed many times within their sight as well as had wolves acting aggressive toward people. So before you bash people in WI for wanting to protect themselves walk a mile in their shoes. And since you moved to WI to go to college you were probably in one of the larger cities in the southern half of the state not where the wolf problem was actually taking place.

 

[NoWiser]

Nope, I actually wasn't in one of those bigger cities, and I hunted deer all over between Mercer and Iron River right in the middle of wolf central.

I was not trying to make fun of the people from Wisconsin and I have no issue with carrying a side arm at all, but I just didn't understand it because I've always been around wolves and have never felt threatened. I've had them follow me on more than a few occasions and had one walk within 16" of my head last fall while I was sleeping. I think they are just curious by nature.

There are 4 things that caused the drop in Wisconsin's deer population. 1. The "T-Zone" hunts 2. The bad winters 3. "Earn a buck" and 4. The wolves.

Hopefully you guys get some mild winters and the DNR eases up on the antlerless tags because you had some pretty incredible deer hunting when I was out there. Incidentally those good years coincided with Minnesota's good years, which took place after a string of mild winters.

One thing I've noticed in Minnesota is the guys who shot the most does during the years of liberal hunting regulations are the ones whining most about the low deer numbers now. I hunt on some very remote public land. We have thousands of acres to ourselves. Even though we are allowed to take a doe we've chosen not to for the last 5 years to help keep the number up. It has made a difference. We still see deer and I doubt there are many areas in the state with a more dense wolf population than where we hunt.

 

[tipsntails7]

at least in my area there are far less cow tags available than last year. I have not done studies or counted heads myself, I talk to friends, hunters, outiftters and guides... They are feeling it big time... despite what the numbers say.

Trust me, I am not completely anti-wolf. I feel like they are here to stay so they better be managed correctly.... if I had the choice to go back and stop you bet I would be for it. I just feel like welcoming them to a state full of libs that will not likely manage them properly is not something I feel is a great choice. To each his own.

My best friends wife is currently finishing her masters in Yellowstone studying elk migration patterns, number and changes from the wolves.... it has been great to talk to her, she is a "wolfie" and has dispelled MANY or most of the misguided ideas I had about wolves. But even she admits that tight management is crucial.

Joe

While I agree management is crucial Yellowstone is a skewed area. It was managed to hold over the maximum carrying capacity for that given area. The drop in elk is much greater because of that. Going from 19000 to 12000 is a much greater drop then the average number of 14000 head to 12000.

 

[Beendare]

Will there be a decline I'm sure, but I personally do not invision a complete massacre of ungulate populations. California may be another story because they continue to ignore the cougar problem that is growing rapidly every year.

Wyoming: 120,000 elk estimated statewide, 50 percent above objective; the state of Wyoming continues to manage for a reduction in elk population.
Montana: 150,000 elk estimated statewide, 14 percent over objective. Montana has the second highest elk population of any state.
Idaho: Estimated population: 101,100, slightly below objective; 23 of the state's 29 game management zones have elk numbers within targets or above.

These are facts. Will behavior change yes, will elk and deer become extinct? No

AHHH no, You are misconstruing the "Facts" you are using statewide numbers- not all parts of Wyo/Mon have wolves. In Wyoming, a big portion of elk numbers are in areas without wolves.

Why not use the Lolo region in Idaho as your example? Lolo would be equivalent to Oregon- where they have the stats before wolves.... to wolves gone wild.

Oh, because- FACT- their elk herds have been decimated.

Fact- courtesy of Idaho F&G; 1980's Lolo region elk 16,000, now 2,178. Even if elk were at 1/2 that the peak number- its still a slaughter...... by their own admission due to not being able to manage predators!

FACT-You are in a state where politics are more important than controlling their predator populations.

In other states where there was no predator management the elk herds were DECIMATED.....but YOU think maybe not? I appreciate optimism...but with gov involved...take off your rose colored glasses there Tip...

 

[Shrek]

I'm way further than AZ Vince , I'm for extinction. If I had god power for a day one of the first things to go is wolves...and wolf lovers.

 

[JeremiahH]

In 1995 the Lolo zone was already at half the 16000 from the 1980s count. That was before the reintroduction of wolves. I'm am by no means pro wolf but the hard winter kills, lack of foliage, etc, are getting blended and blamed on wolves. The data can always be manipulated and just because the Idaho fish and game have numbers doesn't mean they are always accurate either.

Edit;
Tips, I can understand and appreciate where you stand but Oregon is not a good platform for this. That is one state with a lot of power on the other side of this. Too much money for personal agenda and when needed, disregard for scientific management, just my opinion, but as a neighbor I remain very concerned.

 

[NoWiser]

I'm way further than AZ Vince , I'm for extinction. If I had god power for a day one of the first things to go is wolves...and wolf lovers.

You run into a lot of wolves down there in Florida, Shrek?? I'm just curious how they've affected your life so negatively that you want to see them extinct?

 

[Redside]

tipsntails7, Management is the key word here, you won't get to do any before the damage is done to your elk/deer herds. Do some research on what they originally said would be considered a recovered population in MT/ID/WY, I believe the number was at least tripled over that here before we finally got a season in on them. That was after lots of legal battles. We finally got to hunt them for a season and the wolf population still grew 20%. Then the anti's stopped it for a year, since then we've had a consistent season on them. It seems like things might be starting to stabilize and don't read that as we have lots of elk again. That means I don't think the numbers are in free fall anymore. Since living here for the unit I hunt, it went from general elk tag either sex, to bull only, to unlimited draw bull only, and then some units to limited bull only draw. My guess is you should be prepared for the same. Good luck, they're here to stay and I hope you will get to hunt them before they get out of hand.

 

[Shrek]

You run into a lot of wolves down there in Florida, Shrek?? I'm just curious how they've affected your life so negatively that you want to see them extinct?

Yes and no for Florida but they definitely effected my elk hunting in Montana last year. After the first snow I found one set of elk tracks and two very little deer tracks and five sets of wolf tracks.
In Florida they are using one of the barrier islands to raise red wolves for transplant. There used to be a pretty good herd of sambar deer on the Island but the fawn survival has gone to chit since the wolves were put on the island and the herd is fading away.

Btw , I assume you are one of the folks who would spontaneously burst into flames if I was god for a day ?

 

[Sleepy Creek]

Everyone pretty much is spot on here in their responses. I am from southeast AK and deal with wolves constantly. I trap and hunt them all winter in hopes of saving a few deer and moose so I am always seeing their "handy-work". Last week a couple friends came up from Montana to do some blackbear hunting with me. We were anchored in a bay and I took them ashore to hike around in a spot where I have found some good sheds in the past. While there were no antlers to be found we were impressed at the moose sign in the area. We got back to the boat and I noticed something in the water at the head of the bay and told my buddy to throw some glass on it. I thought it might be a moose or a bear swimming. &^%$#! he says. "There is a wolf chasing a moose up there!" I jumped back in the skiff and raced in towards the moose. Not really expecting to get a shot at the wolf I was more interested in scaring them off and giving the moose a chance. I saw the wolf on the tree line and he darted off when I approached the moose that was still swimming. I watched as the large pregnant cow hit the beach and climb out. I was bummed out to see that I was too late. There was approximately 5-10 pounds of her hamstring missing. Blood was spurting out of her hind quarter as she exited the water. I was only a few yards away as she trotted off and I could not only see her severed tendon sucking in and out with each step, but I could hear it as well. It was flat out depressing. She trotted in the brush almost in the same spot the wolves had disappeared. I was disappointed I hadn't tried harder to clip one of those wolves.
I came to find out later that a local bear guide anchored in that same bay later that night. There was a lone wolf feasting on a dead moose on the beach. His client got the wolf with a nice ricochet shot at 350 yards.
I don't blame the wolf. They do what they do. I don't hate wolves. I like wolves. They are cool to watch, fun to match wits with on the trapline, and even funner to hunt. But if you don't have them, you don't want them. I would say to be thankful that you don't have to deal with them and invite anyone that was interested to come up and enjoy them here. But I am WAY too late for that sadly...

 

[NoWiser]

Yes and no for Florida but they definitely effected my elk hunting in Montana last year. After the first snow I found one set of elk tracks and two very little deer tracks and five sets of wolf tracks.
In Florida they are using one of the barrier islands to raise red wolves for transplant. There used to be a pretty good herd of sambar deer on the Island but the fawn survival has gone to chit since the wolves were put on the island and the herd is fading away.

Btw , I assume you are one of the folks who would spontaneously burst into flames if I was god for a day ?

I'm sorry they affected your elk hunting. What if a pack would have chased a herd right into your lap? My guess is the wolves had the elk on the move and it was just a matter of finding where they were pushed to (not to say that's an easy task by any means). But, I wasn't there.

Will I burst into flames?? I'm not sure. If you look at my first post in this thread you'll see in the attached picture that I shot a wolf. Maybe that exempts me? All I know is that for me the entire experience is more important than the kill when I go hunting, and wolves add positively to that experience. I guess if that makes me a wolf lover than that is who I am. I will continue to hunt for them whenever I have the chance, though. There is no doubt they need to be managed like any other animal, but certainly not extirpated. I'm hoping to catch a glimpse of one of the Mexican wolves when I'm in the Gila September.

 

[PA 5-0]

While I agree management is crucial Yellowstone is a skewed area. It was managed to hold over the maximum carrying capacity for that given area. The drop in elk is much greater because of that. Going from 19000 to 12000 is a much greater drop then the average number of 14000 head to 12000.

I recently watched a Nat Geo show about the proliferation of wolves in Yellowstone. I believe they stated the elk herd was down under 6000 head. Wording like " the elk herd was less than half it was 10yrs ago(high of 19,000)". Am I remembering that correctly???

 

[Shrek]

I'm sorry they affected your elk hunting. What if a pack would have chased a herd right into your lap? My guess is the wolves had the elk on the move and it was just a matter of finding where they were pushed to (not to say that's an easy task by any means). But, I wasn't there.

Will I burst into flames?? I'm not sure. If you look at my first post in this thread you'll see in the attached picture that I shot a wolf. Maybe that exempts me? All I know is that for me the entire experience is more important than the kill when I go hunting, and wolves add positively to that experience. I guess if that makes me a wolf lover than that is who I am. I will continue to hunt for them whenever I have the chance, though. There is no doubt they need to be managed like any other animal, but certainly not extirpated. I'm hoping to catch a glimpse of one of the Mexican wolves when I'm in the Gila September.

I'd have shot wolves first and elk second and yep , you would be on your way to hades.

 

[Sleepy Creek]

I would be shocked if it was even 6000.

 

[robby denning]

In 1995 the Lolo zone was already at half the 16000 from the 1980s count. That was before the reintroduction of wolves. I'm am by no means pro wolf but the hard winter kills, lack of foliage, etc, are getting blended and blamed on wolves. The data can always be manipulated and just because the Idaho fish and game have numbers doesn't mean they are always accurate either.

Edit;
Tips, I can understand and appreciate where you stand but Oregon is not a good platform for this. That is one state with a lot of power on the other side of this. Too much money for personal agenda and when needed, disregard for scientific management, just my opinion, but as a neighbor I remain very concerned.

Idahohunter
sorry your post shows I edited it- I didn't! I accidentally hit my mod button to edit instead of quote you.

Agreed on the Lolo zone. I killed my first archery elk there in '90 way before wolves and all the locals and F&G were saying then that it was in decline. The burns of the 1900's were all headed toward old growth even then. Predators are much more damaging when the habitat is out of whack.

I would never invite wolves to my hunting area. Don't hate 'em, but happy to hunt where they aren't.

 

[Shrek]

Didn't much of central Idaho burn two years ago ? I'm wondering if the elk will explode or will the wolves just be able to find them easier and finish them off ?