I wonder which company is taking on that project..
The Shoot2hunt Podcast
- Thread starter Ryan Avery
- Start date
SouthPaw
WKR
"There's some scopes in the works that might be a pretty good answer to a lot of this stuff. Hope that helps".
wind gypsy
WKR
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2014
- Messages
- 8,408
"There's some scopes in the works that might be a pretty good answer to a lot of this stuff. Hope that helps".
SWFA refresh? RS/UM spec'd LOW scope? I'm curious now.
swavescatter
WKR
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2021
- Messages
- 909
As soon as I heard that, I rushed here to post ... y'all beat me to it.
If there's anything better in the works that offers more than what either the SWFA 3-9 or the Maven RS1.2 offer for their use cases, then we'll be spoilt.
Oh, and I always thought it was pronounced 'S W F A' ... and now I hear @Formidilosus say 'Swafa'?? My reality is crumbling around me like I'm in Darren Aronofsky movie ...
Some would say “swiffer” is the only true pronunciation.
Here was me thinking that was some cool internet slang term, only to find out it's a cleaning products company ... https://www.swiffer.com
And anyway, it sounds too close to 'sniffer' which has all sorts of weird connotations ...
The MOA vs MIL episode helped me understand the benefits of MILs more than anything other content I've consumed. I'm sold.
Last edited:
Grundy53
WKR
swavescatter
WKR
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2021
- Messages
- 909
Someone with graphics skills needs to dress up Form's tech talks using his audio.
Here's a decent video as well:
Here's a decent video as well:
Hah! I watched that last night.
I haven't found anything else on the quick drop calculation though.
Go to Shoot2hunt university, you will learn and use it. It’s awesome!
That video would not be what I would send a friend to. He takes half the video to get to specifics and when he does they aren’t focused on hunting. Form does a much better job of getting to the point, making the application simple, and making it fast.
swavescatter
WKR
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2021
- Messages
- 909
Form's visuals are non-existent. Many people find value in multiple sources of information and perspective, even if you have to skip past some production.
I'm not saying the video I posted is better information, just supplemental with SOME visuals that help SOME people more than just words. A lot of people are visual learners, and until they see the information, it just won't click.
Expand your horizons!
bojangles808
WKR
This is cut and pasted from form in another thread
Elevation. The idea that you’re going to be able to pull a kestrel or ballistic app out for every shot on animals is ludicrous… Unless you give up ton of opportunities. That’s not my goal. My goal is to be able kill every animal I see regardless of distance or time. And once you decide to shoot, every single thing that pulls you out of the scope, decreases the likelihood of killing that animal, or increases the likelihood of a rodeo or losing the animal with a wound.
Reducing as many variables as possible increases the hit rate. However, you have the time that the animal gives, and the time that it takes you personally to make the shot. What this is about is decreasing the amount of time you need to make a shot. The below (and the corrected versions) will you get you within .1 mil out to 600’ish yards with the vast majority of gun combos.
Memorize a base.
This is mils
100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4
That’s your base. Notice, every 100 yards is a mil. That means every 10 yards is .1mil. That’s critical.
Now, take the above and apply it. Target at 530 yards. Take the first number and take 2 off= “3”. Then the last two becomes the second number, “3”. The drop is 3.3 mils.
Round up or down as appropriate for the last two numbers.
416= 2.2 mils
373= 1.7 mils
564= 3.6 mils
310= 1.1 mils
598= 4.0 mils
The base works for standard rounds- 2,600-2,800fps MV with BC’s between .4-.6. That’s most gun/bullet combos. However, it doesn’t cover them all.
bojangles808
WKR
FORM CONT.
Correction factors:
Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.
Standard base (average gun)=
100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4
So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.
Average is the standard above.
Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.
Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.
How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.
If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.
Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?
Then you can tweak the base for your gun. Put your gun info and current atmospherics into your ballistic app, and see what the correction needs to be. For the last hunt of mine, I used a rifle with a .6 BC, and at 2,820fps MV at 3K FT DA. The correction for it was minus .4 mils past 400 yards which kept it within .1 mils until almost 900 yards. This mattered, because I had a fleeting chance on an elk that ran and stopped right after a buddy killed one. I was already looking in my binos, ranged where I knew it would have to slow down to go up a chute- 644 yards, dialed 4 mils using the correction, and as soon as it stopped put it into the chest. It’s on video. You can not physically look at an app or a drop card, even if it were open laying next to you in the time that I took the shot.
Now I’m not saying that people should be trying to kill quickly moving animals on brief pauses at longer ranges, nor am I saying that you shouldn’t look at actual dope and wind if you have time. I am saying that an optimal solution is one that is linear and consistent, tasks stack and flow directly into the next, and that balances speed with acceptable precision.
This fall year I and seven others killed game animals at 267, 257, 204, 167, 168, 378, 402, 612, 378, 910, 620, 644, 373, 287, 328, and 457. Only the 910 did a drop chart get used. I actually track and log every opportunity for time, position and range an animals. Of those animals, over half would not have allowed time to check a chart or input into a calculator.
All of those animals were a first round hits in the chest. That’s 8 shooters with 7 different rifles, with 5 different elevations, and 4 different wind brackets. Four of those (IIRC), a second animal was killed after the first by another, not using their rifle; yet they were able to make a correct elevation and wind call using the above system.
Correction factors:
Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.
Standard base (average gun)=
100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4
So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.
Average is the standard above.
Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.
Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.
How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.
If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.
Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?
Then you can tweak the base for your gun. Put your gun info and current atmospherics into your ballistic app, and see what the correction needs to be. For the last hunt of mine, I used a rifle with a .6 BC, and at 2,820fps MV at 3K FT DA. The correction for it was minus .4 mils past 400 yards which kept it within .1 mils until almost 900 yards. This mattered, because I had a fleeting chance on an elk that ran and stopped right after a buddy killed one. I was already looking in my binos, ranged where I knew it would have to slow down to go up a chute- 644 yards, dialed 4 mils using the correction, and as soon as it stopped put it into the chest. It’s on video. You can not physically look at an app or a drop card, even if it were open laying next to you in the time that I took the shot.
Now I’m not saying that people should be trying to kill quickly moving animals on brief pauses at longer ranges, nor am I saying that you shouldn’t look at actual dope and wind if you have time. I am saying that an optimal solution is one that is linear and consistent, tasks stack and flow directly into the next, and that balances speed with acceptable precision.
This fall year I and seven others killed game animals at 267, 257, 204, 167, 168, 378, 402, 612, 378, 910, 620, 644, 373, 287, 328, and 457. Only the 910 did a drop chart get used. I actually track and log every opportunity for time, position and range an animals. Of those animals, over half would not have allowed time to check a chart or input into a calculator.
All of those animals were a first round hits in the chest. That’s 8 shooters with 7 different rifles, with 5 different elevations, and 4 different wind brackets. Four of those (IIRC), a second animal was killed after the first by another, not using their rifle; yet they were able to make a correct elevation and wind call using the above system.
bojangles808
WKR
Wind brackets
A wind bracket is a certain full value speed of wind in MPH that drifts the bullet .1 mil per 100 yards.
For example-
Wind holds for a 338 Lapua with 300gr Berger-
100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.
Wind holds for a 223 with 77gr TMK-
100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.
Those are the base number, and they do not change for any chambering. The difference is that the 223 drifts that much with a 4mph full value wind, the 338 drifts that much in an 8 mph full value wind. This allows one to have the exact same wind call/wind process with every chambering and rifle, the only difference is what wind speed causes the drift.
For normal chamberings with MV’s between 2,400’ish and 2,900’ish FPS, and BC’s between .3-.7 G1, the first number of your bullets G1 BC is the MPH that for that gun. You can round up or down.
For instance, a G1 BC of .612 with a MV of 2,750fps, has a wind bracket of 6 miles per hour. So a full value (straight right to left, or left to right wind) will drift this gun/bullet .1 mils per hundred yards.
Muzzle velocity and environment effects this a bit. For grappling_hook’s example he was faster than 2,900fps, and I guessed at the BC at .4 (it’s actually .409). I am also at 5,000ft density altitude- those two things combined, that is higher MV and higher DA, gives his example a 1mph advantage.
Brackets are not used for absolute precision because you’re not getting that with wind anyways, all the weather meter does is give you what it’s doing at the shooter, which you can learn to feel and judge without the meter… not that you shouldn’t use one. And brackets usually start wandering from the .1 mil per 100 yard path somewhere between 600-700. But, to ensure you have the correct MPH for your gun, take your app set it to 600 yards with your gun, set the wind direction to 90° then change the wind speed in MPH until at 600 yards it says you need .6 mil correction. That MPH is the bracket. That’s the basics.
The difference between brackets with mil and MOA isn’t just not needing the ballistic program, it’s the flow. The way the brain works, and the way it thinks about numbers. Yes, you can work a system for MOA, but it isn’t clean and it doesn’t come nearly as quickly as mils.
A wind bracket is a certain full value speed of wind in MPH that drifts the bullet .1 mil per 100 yards.
For example-
Wind holds for a 338 Lapua with 300gr Berger-
100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.
Wind holds for a 223 with 77gr TMK-
100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.
Those are the base number, and they do not change for any chambering. The difference is that the 223 drifts that much with a 4mph full value wind, the 338 drifts that much in an 8 mph full value wind. This allows one to have the exact same wind call/wind process with every chambering and rifle, the only difference is what wind speed causes the drift.
For normal chamberings with MV’s between 2,400’ish and 2,900’ish FPS, and BC’s between .3-.7 G1, the first number of your bullets G1 BC is the MPH that for that gun. You can round up or down.
For instance, a G1 BC of .612 with a MV of 2,750fps, has a wind bracket of 6 miles per hour. So a full value (straight right to left, or left to right wind) will drift this gun/bullet .1 mils per hundred yards.
Muzzle velocity and environment effects this a bit. For grappling_hook’s example he was faster than 2,900fps, and I guessed at the BC at .4 (it’s actually .409). I am also at 5,000ft density altitude- those two things combined, that is higher MV and higher DA, gives his example a 1mph advantage.
Brackets are not used for absolute precision because you’re not getting that with wind anyways, all the weather meter does is give you what it’s doing at the shooter, which you can learn to feel and judge without the meter… not that you shouldn’t use one. And brackets usually start wandering from the .1 mil per 100 yard path somewhere between 600-700. But, to ensure you have the correct MPH for your gun, take your app set it to 600 yards with your gun, set the wind direction to 90° then change the wind speed in MPH until at 600 yards it says you need .6 mil correction. That MPH is the bracket. That’s the basics.
The difference between brackets with mil and MOA isn’t just not needing the ballistic program, it’s the flow. The way the brain works, and the way it thinks about numbers. Yes, you can work a system for MOA, but it isn’t clean and it doesn’t come nearly as quickly as mils.
bojangles808
WKR
If you have .1 mil drift with 5mph does that equate to .2 mils with 10mph at 100 yards?
Correct. But that is for full value winds. And you can divide.
What I generally suggest in the beginning which works just fine to 600’ish is the wind bracket, MPH divided by no more than half, and full value winds, half value, and no value.
You have a 5mph gun:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.
3). Left to right, full value
Correction is left .8 mils
Same gun and range but different wind value:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.
3). Left to right, half value (divide .8 by 2= .4 mils)
Correction is left .4 mils
Same scenario with different wind speed:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 7 mph wind ( 5 goes into 7 1.5 times (ish). So .4x1.5= .6 mil.
3). Left to right, full value
= left .6 mils
… And so on and so forth.
It takes some practice on paper to get it down, but it isn’t hard if you follow the flow above, and it works.
Correct. But that is for full value winds. And you can divide.
What I generally suggest in the beginning which works just fine to 600’ish is the wind bracket, MPH divided by no more than half, and full value winds, half value, and no value.
You have a 5mph gun:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.
3). Left to right, full value
Correction is left .8 mils
Same gun and range but different wind value:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.
3). Left to right, half value (divide .8 by 2= .4 mils)
Correction is left .4 mils
Same scenario with different wind speed:
1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)
2). 7 mph wind ( 5 goes into 7 1.5 times (ish). So .4x1.5= .6 mil.
3). Left to right, full value
= left .6 mils
… And so on and so forth.
It takes some practice on paper to get it down, but it isn’t hard if you follow the flow above, and it works.
bojangles808
WKR
That gold is all from Form in this thread
rokslide.com
I linked it earlier but figured cut pasting would be easier for everyone, especially after latest S2H episode
MK5 HD vs NX8 . . Thoughts?
So you think people in the real world commonly find themselves in a scenario where they have an unknown rifle/ammo and need to “on-demand” approximate (ie guess) elevation and windage on a critical target? No. One is intuitive, easy and faster, so much so that a ballistics program isn’t...
rokslide.com
I linked it earlier but figured cut pasting would be easier for everyone, especially after latest S2H episode
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