"THE NRA IS KILLING OUR KIDS" and other crazy comments out there

[Mike7]

That is shocking that you are not a member of the NRA...well not really.

There are so many vague non-factual generalizations like this in the mainstream media currently as well. It's understandable though, because the NRA supports a different ideology.

Progressives should feel reassured though, as an NRA member, I can tell you that I've seen no secret NRA plan to try to make other Americans practice their 2nd Ammendment rights. On the other hand, every month in local and state governments around this country are efforts by activists and public servants to pass laws designed to take away my right to protect myself. Many times, the NRA is the only group standing up against these efforts.

Of course then, this will make the NRA a huge target for people who don't support our Constitution.

 

[Kevin Dill]

2A supporter here of course.

Perception is reality for everyone. When the time comes (and I think it's coming sooner) that enough middle Americans (of all political leanings) perceive that guns and killing with the use of a gun are out of control and a threat to their personal lives, a tipping-point will be reached. It may take the perfect storm...a series of mass killings in rapid sequence or some other combination of events. If (when) that happens I predict there will be a tidal-like grassroots movement with enough momentum to gain widespread political agreement that "something must be done". That something will potentially be at least a serious degree of restriction on designated weapons (tbd) and it could conceivably result in a constitutional amendment. You can call me crazy and it won't be the first time, but I'll stand on those thoughts.

Outrage is a powerful tool. Righteous outrage gets people moving. There's a huge amount of it simmering right now. I think a lot of us would be surprised at how many conservative-leaning Americans (who own guns) are turned off by the perceived "guns and 2A rights at all costs" rhetoric happening before the embalming of school victims has even started. I recently read an article by a lifelong noted writer, hunter, sportsman and Alaskan who admitted he has been conflicted by the need to support the 2A while simultaneously rejecting the thought that it's our constitutional right to own a bump-stocked AR with multiple mags and 5,000 rounds of ammo. Of course law-abiding people should own them if they want. The more general public perception is this: weaponry of that type and capability is designed and intended to kill people. And remember that perception is reality. When it's the majority's reality (negative on guns) and enough righteous outrage erupts...changes in the gun laws will happen.

My personal reflection: The NRA is the stone wall protecting gun-owner rights. When people (but especially children) are murdered en-mass by a gunman (who logically should NOT have owned any gun), the public wants accountability. Our court system is geared to place a greater degree of severity on crimes committed with a gun. When people (grieving and otherwise) ask for major gun control, the NRA typically has an effective blow-torch response which focuses on preserving gun-owner rights. At the same time I believe it erodes the public's perception of the NRA and makes the NRA seem very unsympathetic to the general public. And though the NRA is a stone wall for our rights, it makes me wonder how long until the wall won't hold back the public, the corporations, and the politicians who will overrun it. Maybe it will never happen but I'm not betting the farm.

 

[Northernpiker]

Sadly I agree with Kevin, except the changing of 2nd amendment, it'll just be interpreted differently. I have hunting friends saying we don't need AR type rifles. My response is you better be ready to give up more than the AR's if you think like that.

 

[texag10]

More laws won't solve the apathy shown for the current ones. You want universal background checks? How's that going to help when,according to the stats I found, 62 out of 76,142 attempts of people prohibited from owning firearms actually had their cases referred to prosecutors?

Mass shootings are a tiny portion of deaths in the US. People trying to get ARs or standard capacity magazines or bump stocks banned don't actually care about reducing deaths, they care about taking away the rights of law abiding people to appeal to their base and gain more control and power. According to the CDC, 9 people die and 1,000 are injured every day due to distracted driving, but CNN isn't screaming about more legislation on cell phone usage while driving. Much like firearms, the laws on the books don't work there either.

 

[rayporter]

as kevin I believe it is only a matter of time - the demographics are against us.

when they get black rifles and hi cap mags they will go after sniper rifles. ' did you know that they can hit and aspirin at a thousand yards?'
who needs gun that accurate?

what the constitution looks like in 50 years will be alarming.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Mass shootings are a tiny portion of deaths in the US. QUOTE]

Absolutely agree with you 100%. Cecil (the lion) was one tiny portion of all illegal hunting. It doesn't really matter what the stats show. What matters is people's perceptions. When a mother sees 20 mothers crying outside a school (just shot to hell) that is strong stuff and it carries immense weight. That could be her kids getting killed in her school. The gun gets the blame because it was the tool used to kill. We know how this works, but her perception is her reality and you can bet she's got a lot of society on her side right now.

 

[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

Kevin, I appreciate your input. You bring a level headed thought process to a conversation that is often too controlled by emotions.

now, my problems with the NRA.

I would like to see the NRA extend an olive branch of sorts to the left. Why couldn't the NRA stop railing against the left and democrats and explain that the 2A is for the benefit of all people. If it continues in the publics perception for much longer the NRA will become political kryptonite. I agree with the 2nd amendment but I will not become a member unless they stop the bashing of the side who's support we will absolutely need in the future.

China's leadership just consolidated power again-that's something that would never happen in this country because the million man march would be armed.

 

[Kilboars]

How about also looking to the parents....or lack there of.....

Between absetee fathers, children born out of wedlock, the rampant divorce rate, and living in social media 24/7, its no wonder a ton of kids are screwed up.

But its probably just Trump's fault, or an inanimate object's fault....

Yes, Kids having kids having kids.

The more we here about this kid is there any doubt he was goi9ng to kill someone in his life either with a gun or some other means?


I'd also like them to stop posting these kids names and photos all over the place making them famous murderers. They seem to like knowing the world is talking about them for a few weeks.

 

[texag10]

Mass shootings are a tiny portion of deaths in the US. QUOTE]

Absolutely agree with you 100%. Cecil (the lion) was one tiny portion of all illegal hunting. It doesn't really matter what the stats show. What matters is people's perceptions. When a mother sees 20 mothers crying outside a school (just shot to hell) that is strong stuff and it carries immense weight. That could be her kids getting killed in her school. The gun gets the blame because it was the tool used to kill. We know how this works, but her perception is her reality and you can bet she's got a lot of society on her side right now.

True, human beings are quite terrible at accurately weighing risks and responding to them.

That said, I don't really know how to respond to someone trying to turn emotion into misplaced anger and ultimately legislation other than showing them the truth of what actually kills people in this country.

• Murder - number of victims by weapons used 2016 | Statistic

 

[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

True, human beings are quite terrible at accurately weighing risks and responding to them.

That said, I don't really know how to respond to someone trying to turn emotion into misplaced anger and ultimately legislation other than showing them the truth of what actually kills people in this country.

• Murder - number of victims by weapons used 2016 | Statistic

I guess I don't really see what other death causes and statistics have to do with 2A conversations. All it proves is that people are good at dying. IMHO arguing from that perspective gives the impression that the stats drive the debate.

 

[texag10]

I do not believe the average person cares about the Constitution when it comes to firearms. Many politicians are in the same camp. Rights don't matter to them, feeling safe is more important. I do not agree with that sentiment, but that doesn't change my perception that it is a widely held sentiment.

Showing that their fears of ARs are drastically misplaced is how *I* choose to go about engaging people on this topic. You are free to do otherwise.

 

[2five7]

If you have an hour, this video is a good sample of what the current college gen thinks of guns. These people will be the largest voting base very soon.

REAL CONVERSATIONS: I'm Pro-Gun (2nd Edition) | Change My Mind - YouTube

 

[Murdy]

I agree that there are a myriad of causes and many won't be easy to fix (how about the demise of union power leading to the death of the single-wage-earner family and the removal of the mother from a home).

However, it will be hard to convince anybody in the political middle that the availability of high-capacity, military-style, semi-automatic weapons is completely irrelevant to the problem.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I would submit that any loving, decent mother or father worth their title would immediately surrender the Second Amendment in totality to save their child's life. If they believe (again, based on their perception) the problem is as much about unnecessary guns as it is about a lunatic student...they're going to at least start by wanting guns controlled.

Stats versus a parent's love and fear is no strategy. We can't rationalize our way to overcoming the public's growing perception that guns need to be regulated. So we often end up fighting their emotional fire with our own, which only appears to ignores the death of children, and tends to make gun rights activists look like heartless zealots. I'm sure you and I don't think or feel that way at all....but again...'their' perception (of us) is their reality to deal with.

 

[realunlucky]

I would submit that any loving, decent mother or father worth their title would immediately surrender the Second Amendment in totality to save their child's life. If they believe (again, based on their perception) the problem is as much about unnecessary guns as it is about a lunatic student...they're going to at least start by wanting guns controlled.

Stats versus a parent's love and fear is no strategy. We can't rationalize our way to overcoming the public's growing perception that guns need to be regulated. So we often end up fighting their emotional fire with our own, which only appears to ignores the death of children, and tends to make gun rights activists look like heartless zealots. I'm sure you and I don't think or feel that way at all....but again...'their' perception (of us) is their reality to deal with.

I just had a discussion with my two kids 8 & 12 about what to do in a active shooter situation. How to react with Run--Hide--Fight strategies. What do you do if you hear another student has a gun in school? What do you if you see another student post threatening stuff on social media?
Is this really the current state of this country? It's the perception on national news and even my kids are worried in our small community. It's definitely a scary tend with mass casualty events continually increasing.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Diesel]

Kevin,
You have analyzed this situation from all perspectives and I think you have it right. In an earlier post, you say the average person perceives AR's with thousands of rounds of ammo as designed to kill people. Truth is they and their like were, basically. That is not how they are used by the lawful public as we have found other worthy ways for their employ.

Trouble is, those who could envision a time when the true reason for the second amendment is put in play, that firepower would be justified and necessary. If they are outlawed, tyranny would have the upper hand. That is the crux of the conundrum.

As one who comes at this from a 'never give an inch" viewpoint, I wish there was no need to have an AR. But there is. And we all know that taking away the AR will not stop the killing.

So how do we proceed, either way we are doomed. Law enforcement is incapable of keeping the public safe, perps are not punished to the degree of their crimes, regulations are not adhered to, data bases are not kept up and there are millions of these weapons out there. I still do not see the degree of rage against the guy who committed this last killings as there is against the tool. That should give us all pause. Could it be that the "never let a crisis go to waste" crowd is looking for a major political win?

It is sad, but must be acknowledged that no amount of reasoning or logic will ever overcome the emotion of losing a loved one. And we can all understand that emotion. And yet we also know that evil exists. Sometimes in an isolated event, as in these mass killings and also in the larger form of what the 2nd was created to protect against. Not easy choices to make.

I wish I had the answer. I don't think any one does.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Maybe we can find common emotional ground:

Many of us understand the fear of grizzlies. Put that person alone in a tent in grizz country and turn out the lights. You can reason all you want and show them every stat about how unlikely they are to even see a grizzly, but that isn't going to do away with their fears.

Fear of the unknown and the uncontrollable is real for an easy majority of people. A single shark attack 10 miles away will send 5,000 panicked swimmers to shore and have every mom carrying their child to safety. Stay out of the water because it's dangerous. To hell with the odds. We gotta do something!

Now imagine the worst possible terror...fear so strong it's intolerable. That's what a lot of parents are living with right now. They feel it and the kids feel it. Nothing can alleviate that fear or convince them it's a low-odds deal, and that banning assault weapons is at least taking the killing-tool away from the killer...of children like theirs. You go argue with them and apply a healthy dose of logic. They aren't buying it, and the shark or bear is still just as frightening. That's what we're up against....fear and outrage in equal measures.

 

[Bear_Bryan]

Nothing can alleviate that fear or convince them it's a low-odds deal, and that banning assault weapons is at least taking the killing-tool away from the killer...of children like theirs. You go argue with them and apply a healthy dose of logic. They aren't buying it, and the shark or bear is still just as frightening. That's what we're up against....fear and outrage in equal measures.

They will really know fear when evil is forced to go the Timothy McVeigh route. I can't believe nobody has tried to replicate it yet. As far as I know we still sell fuel and fertilizer and rent u-haul trucks. I can see them trying to wrap their minds around the fact that an AR-15 is not the most effective killing device.

 

[Diesel]

One last thought.

It is so sad that we have to spend so much time and energy addressing gun rights and worrying about an ever expanding and corrupt government.

I long for the days of my youth when I got home from school and pulled the shotgun or .22 out of my old truck and chased squirrels and pheasants without a worry. No one I knew ever thought anyone would ever use their gun to kill another human. I am also sad that the youth today will not enjoy the same seasons afield without never ending scrutiny.

How America has declined morally is beyond recognition to me. My days are short so it will be up to you all to make it right. I hope somehow the direction will change for the country's sake, but history leads me to believe that the great experiment that was the USA is destined to follow the same fate as other great nations. I pray I am wrong about that.

I have said my peace about gun control.

Carry on.

 

[Kilboars]

I thought you might be interested in this article Fixing 'broken boys' - not stripping gun rights - would stop mass shootings, experts say.
Fixing 'broken boys' - not stripping gun rights - would stop mass shootings, experts say | Fox News


Most humans cannot fathom — or choose not to fathom — the depths of depravity that would allow a young man to shoot up a school filled with children.