The New Leupold Mark 4HD?

[Shraggs]

So you’ve been or are in the industry, not sure how that adds any credibility to your argument.

Had a 22 year old behind the gun counter tell me, he’s been doing the a long time and assured me leupold is the scope. Even showed me the great glass…

I asked how long he’s been hunting, for what, in what states, how far he kills game and how much he shoots weekly.

It was priceless

 

[nobody]

I appreciate you taking the time to look these up. I can tell you I've been in the outdoor industry for a very long time. The Leupold vs NF vs Zeiss vs Vortex is the same as Hoyt vs Mathews vs PSE vs Bowtech, etc.... Every manufacturer has some issues with their products. Bottom line is there are several people in this thread with the same sentiments I have.

Each manufacturer has their fanboys, it's just the way it goes. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't make them right. It just is what it is.

So if you’ve been in the industry for a long time, can you tell me who the ONE guy is who does bad reviews on Leupold?

I’ve been in the industry for a long time too, almost 10 years. And I can tell you that people who are “in the industry,” by and large, are the most bought and paid for people in the world. Rivaled only by US politicians. Every instafamous hunter, every guy with a YouTube channel, everyone who has a podcast, every PRS shooter, every gun counter cowboy gets everything they use either for free or on super steep discount.

“Push our product behind the gun counter and we will give you points to redeem for free gear and optics.”

“Here’s a coupon for 50% off any [insert any big name optics company here] scope if you win this weekend’s NRL hunter match.”

“Here’s a code you can share with your followers for 10% off their order. We will give you a kickback if you share it.”

I know it’s how it works because I PLAYED THE GAME. I was a gun counter cowboy at a HUGE chain for several years. I got free stuff from Leupold, Vortex, Swaro, Christensen, and huge discounts on lots of other stuff. Their stuff isn’t popular because it’s all top shelf, it’s popular because the companies bribe guys like me to sell it and push it.

At the end of the day, you have to be able to parse through and figure out what works and what doesn’t. It matters not what sells or what is popular, what matters is what works. We’ve covered the angle of “they sell more Leupolds than Nightforce which is why you see more of them fail” ad nauseum, and you can read about it in the scope testing subforum or listen to it on the shoot2hunt podcast, so I’m not gonna cover it here.

Bottom line, it’s not fanboyism. It’s functional vs. nonfunctional, black vs. white, and giving ourselves the best odds at avoiding issues. There’s a reason there’s 100 “leupold problem” forum posts for every 1 “nightforce problem” forum post, and personally, I’ve stacked the odds in my favor and gotten rid of all my Leupold’s (all of which had issues) and replaced them. And fun fact, none of them were replaced with a Nightforce, or a Zeiss, or a Vortex.

So again, please enlighten us, who is the one person who has bad reviews on Leupold?

EDIT: My post sounds extremely confrontational when I re-read it, and I apologize, it’s not meant to be. It’s more of a “screaming into the wind” type post, and moreso reflects frustration for the Groundhog Day type conversations we continuously have surrounding these topics. My apologies.

 

[Seeknelk]

I'll simply add that almost everyone here...would absolutely LOVE it, if Leupold scopes started passing the evaluation. That is all I would own. Same goes for Vortex. But both flat refuse to address durability at all.

 

[cjhunts]

So if you’ve been in the industry for a long time, can you tell me who the ONE guy is who does bad reviews on Leupold?

I’ve been in the industry for a long time too, almost 10 years. And I can tell you that people who are “in the industry,” by and large, are the most bought and paid for people in the world. Rivaled only by US politicians. Every instafamous hunter, every guy with a YouTube channel, everyone who has a podcast, every PRS shooter, every gun counter cowboy gets everything they use either for free or on super steep discount.

“Push our product behind the gun counter and we will give you points to redeem for free gear and optics.”

“Here’s a coupon for 50% off any [insert any big name optics company here] scope if you win this weekend’s NRL hunter match.”

“Here’s a code you can share with your followers for 10% off their order. We will give you a kickback if you share it.”

I know it’s how it works because I PLAYED THE GAME. I was a gun counter cowboy at a HUGE chain for several years. I got free stuff from Leupold, Vortex, Swaro, Christensen, and huge discounts on lots of other stuff. Their stuff isn’t popular because it’s all top shelf, it’s popular because the companies bribe guys like me to sell it and push it.

At the end of the day, you have to be able to parse through and figure out what works and what doesn’t. It matters not what sells or what is popular, what matters is what works. We’ve covered the angle of “they sell more Leupolds than Nightforce which is why you see more of them fail” ad nauseum, and you can read about it in the scope testing subforum or listen to it on the shoot2hunt podcast, so I’m not gonna cover it here.

Bottom line, it’s not fanboyism. It’s functional vs. nonfunctional, black vs. white, and giving ourselves the best odds at avoiding issues. There’s a reason there’s 100 “leupold problem” forum posts for every 1 “nightforce problem” forum post, and personally, I’ve stacked the odds in my favor and gotten rid of all my Leupold’s (all of which had issues) and replaced them. And fun fact, none of them were replaced with a Nightforce, or a Zeiss, or a Vortex.

So again, please enlighten us, who is the one person who has bad reviews on Leupold?

EDIT: My post sounds extremely confrontational when I re-read it, and I apologize, it’s not meant to be. It’s more of a “screaming into the wind” type post, and moreso reflects frustration for the Groundhog Day type conversations we continuously have surrounding these topics. My apologies.

About 30 years ago, I started shooting competitive 3D archery, and was good at it. That's what I mean by being "in the industry" and getting to see and hear about all manufacturers. I also know allllll about different companies giving away damn near everything to push their product and increase their sales. As you know, it's the resale business. A very good friend of mine shoots for Darton right now - not a company that would be at the top of your "most wanted" list, but he wins with their bows, regularly.

Looking back at MY original post, (because I don't understand where you got the fact that I said "one person") it looks as though poor punctuation got us here. My intent was to tell the lad what others in this thread have already said back on the first pages of this thread, NOT what can be found on Google.

Out of curiosity, what optics are you running after you deleted all of Leupold's?

 

[Gtscotty]

I picked up the 2.5-10 mil Illuminated for my 7 PRC and really like the package. It's survived several drops from 1"- 2" into a padded case to go to the range so far, but the evaluation is still ongoing. I'm going to try to get a few more such drops and maybe a light brushing with a lense cloth before publishing any conclusions.

 

[Kurts86]

About 30 years ago, I started shooting competitive 3D archery, and was good at it. That's what I mean by being "in the industry" and getting to see and hear about all manufacturers. I also know allllll about different companies giving away damn near everything to push their product and increase their sales. As you know, it's the resale business. A very good friend of mine shoots for Darton right now - not a company that would be at the top of your "most wanted" list, but he wins with their bows, regularly.

In the industry is less helpful of an argument than if you were to say you are a Quality Engineer at a pencil company or a statistician at an insurance company.

Consumer industry insiders are just chasing the current best pro deal on equipment regardless of who sells it. They buy obscure/lesser brands because their buddy manages a shop that sells them to him cheap. Most guys doing that type of work are selling their gear after a season around their cost and moving on to the next deal.

If competition is involved it gets even murkier because sponsorships get involved with 20 year olds chasing their dream while they make minimum wage at a shop during the day. They will say or push anything if it supports their dream.

You seem to come at this from the archery side which means a lot more time with binoculars and rangefinders than scopes. To be honest lots of companies making bad scopes make good to Great Binoculars. Swarovski is the most glaring example of it.

 

[nobody]

About 30 years ago, I started shooting competitive 3D archery, and was good at it. That's what I mean by being "in the industry" and getting to see and hear about all manufacturers. I also know allllll about different companies giving away damn near everything to push their product and increase their sales. As you know, it's the resale business. A very good friend of mine shoots for Darton right now - not a company that would be at the top of your "most wanted" list, but he wins with their bows, regularly.

Looking back at MY original post, (because I don't understand where you got the fact that I said "one person") it looks as though poor punctuation got us here. My intent was to tell the lad what others in this thread have already said back on the first pages of this thread, NOT what can be found on Google.

Out of curiosity, what optics are you running after you deleted all of Leupold's?

The “one person” thing comes from your post #655, where you stated “The majority of the Leo hate comes from one person's reviews,” quoted verbatim. Thats what I was getting at.

@Kurts86 hit the nail on the head with his post above. It’s great that you’ve spent so much time competitively shooting archery, yet you freely admit that your friend shoots a man inferior bow simply because he gets them for free/steeply discounted. He doesn’t shoot it because he objectively thinks they’re fantastic, he does it because it cuts down on his expenses tied to his hobby. While I can’t say I’d necessarily do anything different, it means he’s incapable of being objective in his feelings towards the bow company as long as he’s shooting their bows.

Again, as stated above, you’re coming at this from an archery angle, on a riflescope subforum, on a riflescope evaluation thread. Your statements regarding all brands having fanboys and everyone making decent stuff holds water when it comes to binos, spotters, and rangefinders. But that concept changes when applied to riflescopes, because other aspects matter. A riflescope has one singular job: steer bullet to target. Glass quality, user experience, bells and whistles are all 1000% irrelevant up until the point where the scope does that job perfectly. Our point with Leupolds is that they check literally every box: great feature set, incredibly forgiving eyebox, solid glass, made in USA, yet they fail at a scopes one job: steer bullet to target. Lots of people do use them regularly with success, it’s true. But it’s also important to understand someone’s use case, and oftentimes those scopes are on the backs of rifles that were sighted in 20 years ago and get a couple sighter rounds shot through them before season, 1-5 shots at game, and put away. Most game is taken inside a couple hundred yards, where a wandering zero or a couple inches doesn’t matter in the sense that it’s not the reason a person misses.

Where it does matter is with guys who are shooting rifles the way you shoot your bow: often, in different positions, in different conditions, and with high round counts at all distances. A wandering zero of 2-ish inches doesn’t mean as much at 200 yards as it does at 600 yards, but when guys start missing shots they shouldn’t and all weirdness goes away when you dump the Leupolds (my experience, as well as MANY others on this forum and others), you tend to draw parallels.

I’ve dumped my leupys (all VX3’s or better, all with the CDS dials) and replaced them with SWFA’s and a Maven RS1.2. Wandering zero and weird tracking anomalies went away when I got rid of them on all my rifles.

My binos are mavens, spotter and rangefinder are both vortex. I no longer have any of the free optics I got behind the gun counter either, only have the free tripod I got with a vortex order. Everything else is gone from my days at Sportsmans Warehouse.

 

[Balderdash]

I appreciate you taking the time to look these up. I can tell you I've been in the outdoor industry for a very long time. The Leupold vs NF vs Zeiss vs Vortex is the same as Hoyt vs Mathews vs PSE vs Bowtech, etc.... Every manufacturer has some issues with their products. Bottom line is there are several people in this thread with the same sentiments I have.

Each manufacturer has their fanboys, it's just the way it goes. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't make them right. It just is what it is.

CJ:

There's certainly some truth to your response; a lot of people like to believe that they're a part of something bigger than just an item they bought. However, that phenomenon of human behavior doesn't alone substantiate any level of product equivalence. In reality, some products are objectively better than others, and it's not coincidence that different people report similar experiences - good or bad - with certain products.

 

[Balderdash]

I picked up the 2.5-10 mil Illuminated for my 7 PRC and really like the package. It's survived several drops from 1"- 2" into a padded case to go to the range so far, but the evaluation is still ongoing. I'm going to try to get a few more such drops and maybe a light brushing with a lense cloth before publishing any conclusions.

Did you intend to type 1-2"? Or was it supposed to read 12"?

 

[JGRaider]

CJ:

There's certainly some truth to your response; a lot of people like to believe that they're a part of something bigger than just an item they bought. However, that phenomenon of human behavior doesn't alone substantiate any level of product equivalence. In reality, some products are objectively better than others, and it's not coincidence that different people report similar experiences - good or bad - with certain products.

Agreed, and also there's this thing called "brand bias", which most people have whether they want to admit it or not. Everyone wants to believe their stuff is the best, which is one reason you can guarantee hundreds of posts on any Leupold or best cartridge/bullet thread. It's nothing but a big circle jerk every time.

 

[nobody]

Agreed, and also there's this thing called "brand bias", which most people have whether they want to admit it or not. Everyone wants to believe their stuff is the best, which is one reason you can guarantee hundreds of posts on any Leupold or best cartridge/bullet thread. It's nothing but a big circle jerk every time.

To be fair, the proverbial circle jerk occurs in all directions on all optics forum posts. There’s as many positive brand biases as negative, and most people can’t look beyond their own biases long enough to see the other side’s perspective. Every Leupold owner wants to believe/show their scopes are awesome and infallible no matter what the rest of the world says or has experienced, and the same is true of every nightforce/trijicon/vortex/swfa owner as well. I do feel we tend to see it more prevalently with Leupold and Vortex than any other optics brand because of their sales numbers.

To be clear, this isn’t a slight against you as an avid Leupold user JG (your hunting pedigree speaks for itself), just using the current thread topic to support what you’re saying. I personally won’t own another Leupy scope until I see a change in the problems/failure points I experienced in the past, but I also won’t pretend other people don’t use them with great success either.

But hey, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I’m the guy who thinks Swaro optics perform well below their current price point. Let’s stir that pot why don’t we

 

[Flyjunky]

To be fair, the proverbial circle jerk occurs in all directions on all optics forum posts. There’s as many positive brand biases as negative, and most people can’t look beyond their own biases long enough to see the other side’s perspective. Every Leupold owner wants to believe/show their scopes are awesome and infallible no matter what the rest of the world says or has experienced, and the same is true of every nightforce/trijicon/vortex/swfa owner as well. I do feel we tend to see it more prevalently with Leupold and Vortex than any other optics brand because of their sales numbers.

To be clear, this isn’t a slight against you as an avid Leupold user JG (your hunting pedigree speaks for itself), just using the current thread topic to support what you’re saying. I personally won’t own another Leupy scope until I see a change in the problems/failure points I experienced in the past, but I also won’t pretend other people don’t use them with great success either.

But hey, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I’m the guy who thinks Swaro optics perform well below their current price point. Let’s stir that pot why don’t we

Good post!

The other thing I notice is that many disenfranchised Leupold people actually state they want to use them, or they love everything about Leupold scopes except for the durability, etc.

I find that interesting because you don’t see that in a lot of other product areas.

 

[nobody]

Good post!

The other thing I notice is that many disenfranchised Leupold people actually state they want to use them, or they love everything about Leupold scopes except for the durability, etc.

I find that interesting because you don’t see that in a lot of other product areas.

Yup. You’re 100% correct. I objectively hate lots about my SWFA’s, the only things I like are the price and the durability. But the glass is meh (totally serviceable, but not great), turrets are giant, eye relief and eyebox aren’t fantastic. But they work and they’re cheap, so I have 4 of them.

If the VX5 4-20 was durable, FFP, and had SWFA’s milquad reticle, they would be the only optic in my safe.

 

[JGRaider]

To be fair, the proverbial circle jerk occurs in all directions on all optics forum posts. There’s as many positive brand biases as negative, and most people can’t look beyond their own biases long enough to see the other side’s perspective. Every Leupold owner wants to believe/show their scopes are awesome and infallible no matter what the rest of the world says or has experienced, and the same is true of every nightforce/trijicon/vortex/swfa owner as well. I do feel we tend to see it more prevalently with Leupold and Vortex than any other optics brand because of their sales numbers.

To be clear, this isn’t a slight against you as an avid Leupold user JG (your hunting pedigree speaks for itself), just using the current thread topic to support what you’re saying. I personally won’t own another Leupy scope until I see a change in the problems/failure points I experienced in the past, but I also won’t pretend other people don’t use them with great success either.

But hey, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I’m the guy who thinks Swaro optics perform well below their current price point. Let’s stir that pot why don’t we

Good post. FWIW, I only have a couple of Leupold left, a 12 yr old VX6 that is seldom dialed, and a Vari XIII 2.5-8x36 on a Tikka T3 7-08. I also own and have zero issues with a couple of Arken's, LRHS, an Athlon or 2. Totally agree with you on Swaro rifle scopes.

 

[PredatoronthePrairie]

Don't have much to add to the discussion. Cause I don't shoot as much as others.

But 2 years ago on the rifle opener I had a buck I wanted to get Dad on. Put him where he needed to be. The buck steps out at sun down. And he misses. I've personally never seen him or been with him during a missed shot oppertunity (he won a state trap shooting title if that means anything). He was flabbergasted. Checked zero that summer. Put gun in safe. And that's where it sat.

After the miss he goes back to the range. Was off by about a foot. He was devesated. In his old age, he dosnt know how many more opportunities he will get at that size animal.

Needless to say, when I put together a new setup this summer. I did not top it with a Leupy.

 

[roosiebull]

I picked up the 2.5-10 mil Illuminated for my 7 PRC and really like the package. It's survived several drops from 1"- 2" into a padded case to go to the range so far, but the evaluation is still ongoing. I'm going to try to get a few more such drops and maybe a light brushing with a lense cloth before publishing any conclusions.

Are you measuring from the rifle to the foam in the case, or rifle to the ground?

 

[roosiebull]

To be fair, the proverbial circle jerk occurs in all directions on all optics forum posts. There’s as many positive brand biases as negative, and most people can’t look beyond their own biases long enough to see the other side’s perspective. Every Leupold owner wants to believe/show their scopes are awesome and infallible no matter what the rest of the world says or has experienced, and the same is true of every nightforce/trijicon/vortex/swfa owner as well. I do feel we tend to see it more prevalently with Leupold and Vortex than any other optics brand because of their sales numbers.

To be clear, this isn’t a slight against you as an avid Leupold user JG (your hunting pedigree speaks for itself), just using the current thread topic to support what you’re saying. I personally won’t own another Leupy scope until I see a change in the problems/failure points I experienced in the past, but I also won’t pretend other people don’t use them with great success either.

But hey, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I’m the guy who thinks Swaro optics perform well below their current price point. Let’s stir that pot why don’t we

First we need some people who will defend swaro scopes, even swaro doesn’t try to defend themselves.

They make the most enjoyable optics to look through(imo) but I have never heard a claim about being rugged and reliable. Of all of my things I take hunting, I baby my binos more than anything else. Closest thing I have to a golden egg and is treated as such.

 

[nobody]

First we need some people who will defend swaro scopes, even swaro doesn’t try to defend themselves.

They make the most enjoyable optics to look through(imo) but I have never heard a claim about being rugged and reliable. Of all of my things I take hunting, I baby my binos more than anything else. Closest thing I have to a golden egg and is treated as such.

Yeah I was meaning Swaro binos and spotters optically perform well below their current price point. That’s what I meant I said I was just stirring a pot, it was just to illustrate that all optics companies have their fan bases. As a group, hunters probably spend more money on their gear relative to its usage rate than any other demographic, and whether or not we want to admit it we feel the need to justify (to ourselves as much as anyone) the exorbitant amount of money tied up in our gear. Whether it’s a rifle or a scope or a pack or binos, we will come to the defense of our purchase on a forum thread because by dang we have a crapload of money tied up in it, and we can’t bear to hear that our investment was poor. Whether it’s trucks, rifles, ATV’s, or optics it doesn’t matter, it happens to us all and we all do it.

Humans are, by nature, very NOT objective in matters like this one, and it always comes out on both sides of an argument.

 

[Huntsalot]

After the miss he goes back to the range. Was off by about a foot. He was devastated. In his old age, he doesn't know how many more opportunities he will get at that size animal.

The thought of that makes me sick. I feel for him. I'm almost done with making sure all of my deer setups are as reliable as possible, Leupold is not part of that equation.

 

[WRO]

Yeah I was meaning Swaro binos and spotters optically perform well below their current price point. That’s what I meant I said I was just stirring a pot, it was just to illustrate that all optics companies have their fan bases.

I’d argue that, most auto makers can make a 5 second 0-60 car.. when the performance gets sub 4 seconds 0-60 price and resale goes up significantly.

That differentiation provides the value.


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