The Mule Deer Project

[david long]

Cindy's Backpack Hunting Equipment List

In order to get an idea of how Cindy is sitting when it comes to her current backpacking equipment, I sent her an email asking for a list of her current equipment. While this list is not all inclusive, it covers the bulk of the major items she will need. We will discuss other items not on the list later on in the project.

Here is the list I received back from Cindy:

The gear listed in the "Current" column is the gear she currently has. We will evaluate each individual piece of equipment and once we decide on a final item, we will enter that item into the "Final" column.

As you can see, the Final column already has two items listed in the boots and clothing categories.

On the boots, we decided that for this particular hunt, the LL Bean boots were not sufficient. Therefore, we scratched them and replaced them with top of the line Kenetreks.

On the clothing, Cindy really doesn't have any good quality backcountry type clothing, therefore, we will be starting from scratch and outfitting her with top of the line Prois.

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

This is such a cool project. I will definately be paying close attention and can't wait to read the story of the hunt. As far as broadheads goes after reading the goals and suggestions below I would recommend the Slick Trick Standard. I like heavier arrows so I would recommend the 100g head. My wife uses the 100g Slick Trick Standards and 500 spine Easton Axis arrows and has no problems with pass throughs. They shoot like field tips are super tough, penetrate like no other, punches through bone and destroys lungs. Also for a smaller diameter head ( 1" ) it leaves a HUGE hole. I can provide a few pictures if you would like. Here's an elk. Quartering away at 20yds. Busted through a rib as it entered, passed through both lungs, busted through the offside shoulder and stuck in the skin in the offside. 40yds and a huge blood trail later and he piled up.

Great question Cindy...

Unfortunately I don't have any hard rules to go by in regard to penetration. I can tell you that our goal is to achieve maximum energy while retaining adequate hunting velocity. As a shorter draw length archer with a 50 pound bow, you can't develop nearly as much energy as a longer draw, heavier draw weight archer would. Fortunately, 50# and 26" draw is plenty to get the job done - but we're going to err on the conservative side and assemble an arrow that packs a lot of punch in the form of mass weight.

For years everyone has argued that penetration is a function of kinetic energy. KE = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity
I wrote a pretty in-depth article for Eastmans' Bowhunting a while back with a different theory... I believe momentum is a better indicator of an object's penetration potential. Momentum = mass x velocity I do not want to take away from the purpose here to debate this topic since regardless of which theory you subscribe to as mass increases, KE and Mo increase in spite of decreasing arrow velocity. So both theories agree on more mass = more penetration.

We are merely trying to achieve a good compromise between arrow mass and arrow velocity. A heavier arrow is going to penetrate deeper but it will drop more if you don't estimate distance correctly so the trade-off factors are penetration or flatter arrow trajectory. There are others, but these are the primary considerations. A heavier arrow also reduces vibration and noise, and drifts less in the wind.

Smaller diameter arrows penetrate much better than large diameter arrows so we are going to use smaller diameter shafts for your hunting setup. Broadheads also play a role in penetration. The less energy they require to slice through something and in the case of expandables, the less energy they require to open, generally indicates their relative impact on penetration.

A cut on impact 2- blade broadhead is largely considered to be the best penetrating option. In my opinion that trait comes with a few trade-offs, more potential for planing (wind steering the arrow off course), and less internal damage (single slice rather than 3, or 4 blade options). Broadhead debates are a hot-button topic because everyone has shot good and bad ones and most guys end up using the last one that worked well for them. Again, that's a great stand-alone topic but would probably detract from the goal here.

I am proposing that we use a high-quality, fixed blade broadhead in the 1" to 1 1/8" cutting diameter. I think a 4-bladed head will do a bit more damage with minimal penetration loss since the blades don't generally contribute that much resistance or drag as they go through an animal as long as you don't encounter heavy bone. We will use the smaller diameter head because they tend to shoot much more accurately than large diameter heads.

By terminal performance I mean: dirt-nap deer, lay down & stay down! Don't even twitch, she will shoot you again...

A good arrow velocity range for you is probably 240 - 260 fps

I expect your arrow to weigh 320 - 340 grains

This will produce about 46 ft*lbf of Kinetic Energy at point blank or 0.366 #-force*s momentum

Hopefully we will get more than that out of your bow, but I think that's plenty enough to drive a 4-blade broadhead tipped arrow completely through a bucks chest and out the other side at 40 yards. That's good enough for me.

Don't get hung up on the numbers - they really are only valuable if we evaluate different setups against one another to see how much we gain or lose when considering velocity and momentum or KE.

I'm going huntin' talk with you Monday!

Coop

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Rebecca,

Thanks for the chiming in! This is a really fun undertaking.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

LNGBOWFLYR,

That is impressive. Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[david long]

Cindy's Sleeping System - Shelter, Bag & Pad

Cindy will be making a trip to Denver later this week to try on a few packs. She has narrowed her selection to the following three packs: Kifaru UL 5200, Kifaru DT2 & Tenzing TZ 5000. She will try all three of these packs on while in Denver.

Now that she has her pack choices pretty much nailed down, this week I would like to turn the conversation to Sleeping Systems......this consists of a shelter, sleeping bag and sleeping pad.

We would like to hear input on gear suggestions from everyone. If you do suggest a particular piece of equipment, please elaborate "why" you suggest it.

As you can see in Cindy's previous gear listing in Post #101, she currently doesn't have any of these items. Therefore, we will be starting from scratch.

Thanks for everyone's participation.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

which area needs to be spotted. does any one have access to a good spot

bearguide,

Sent you a PM.

 

[cmeier117]

I would say on the sleeping bag she should get a 0-10 degree down bag. Unless she is a warm sleeper, but most of the time women sleep colder. I would suggest the Montbell UL spiral down hugger. I have one and am impressed so far. For sleeping pad I would look hard at the Thermarest Neo air all season, has an R-value of 5 and is 20 oz. It is a little noisy when you are pulling it out and moving around on it, but I am not bothered by it. I am not sure if she will need a 4 season tent, but if you are above the tree line she made want something stronger than a UL 1 man tent. I would hate to see her have a tent get destroyed. I doubt she would want to go floorless, so I won't mention a Kifaru Super tarp and annex. But I would consider the Hilleberg Akto. Again not sure on budget and price but these are all expensive items.

-sleeping bag- Montbell UL spiral down hugger 0 degree
-sleeping pad- Thermarest neo air all season
-tent Hilliberg Akto.

 

[Above Timber]

I have been using a Big Agnus Seedhouse 2 tent for the last 2 years and love it. I know the tent is an older model and not the lightest on the market but Big Agnus has some new models out that are much lighter. The thing I like about a tent like the Big Agnus is the versatility it offers. The tent coupled with the foot print gives you three great options. You can set the tent up as a full on tent with the footprint, tent, and rain fly. Go fast and light with a footprint and fly. And lastly you can leave the footprint at home and just use the fly much like a tarp or tipi. I think on her trip to Denver you could make a side trip to Big Agnus in Steamboat Springs and check them out. Cmeier117, mentioned wind but in my experience if you set up in just a few trees or even in some junipers and tie out the tent the wind does not bother the structure. The tents have many guy points and I would bet if guyed out properly the wind would not bother the tent if it was set up in the open and she uses a little common sense when pitching the tent.

If you cannot get a sponcer for a tent check ebay. I bought my Seedhouse off ebay for $200 it was a great find.

 

[Slim Jim]

I have the Big Agnes seedhouse sl1 and I love it. If you can afford it or have Big Agnes for a sponsor, I would go with the flycreek ul2 platinum. It is the same size as the regular flycreek 2 but much lighter. Minimum trail weight is 1 lb. 13 oz. and packaged weight 2 lb. 3 oz.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Spent the morning with Robby Denning taking the tests mentioned in post #92. Les will get the results and then fine tune the nutrition and fitness part of the project. Stay tuned.

Thanks Robby it was a great day!

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

LNGBOWFLYR,

That is impressive. Thanks for your suggestions.

Anytime Cindy. Good luck this year.

 

[rebecca francis]

bearguide,

Sent you a PM.

Hey Cindy, just wanted to let you know bearguide is gone to scout camp for a week. So he will get back with you as soon as he is home. As far as sleeping pads, I would definitely suggest the neoair. It is super lightweight, very small for backpacking, and is quite comfortable. It is also very affordable. I have four different sleeping pads and since I got my neoair, that is the only one I use.

 

[dreamingbig]

I had to make a couple of budget minded purchases for my sleep system and they work great. I have the REI stratus ($60) plus a thermorest z lite ($40) for pads. My sleeping bag is a REI sub Kilo 20F bag that I got through the outlet last year for $130. It has 750 fill goose down and weighs under 2 lbs at 1 lb 13 oz.

A lot of great choices out there and I doubt you have to go the budget route but I wanted to show that there are cheap alternatives out there that work. As you can see I am into the system for under $250 and it keeps me plenty warm/comfortable.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Rebecca,

Thanks for the update on bearguide and the sleeping pad suggestion.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

dreamingbig,

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, there is always a budget!!

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

dreamingbig,

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, there is always a budget!!

Cindy you don't need a budget plan. You just need a couple of credit cards.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Hike

Les asked me to get some hiking in so I took my daughter yesterday and did just that. I'm pretty happy with how I'm feeling today, only have some sore calf muscles. I hiked with a 19 pound pack, we went 6 miles with a total elevation ascent of 2776 ft.

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[Cindy Wamsley]

Heading to Colorado this weekend!! I'm so excited to get the bow setup and get shooting.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Good luck and good job!

Mike

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

CINDY'S ARROWS:

Cindy - you have a dozen Easton Nano n-Fused Carbon Axis 600's en-route to CO to meet up with your bow on Friday.

The Axis shafts provide a perfect blend of mass weight, great hunting velocity, and a small diameter to reduce wind drift and increase penetration. Evan will be fletching them up with a vane of his choice over Rok wraps. The 600 spine should be perfect for you with a 100 grain broadhead (Slick Trick) at about 50 pound draw weight and 26 - 27" draw range. This arrow combination should deliver plenty of energy to pass completely through a broadside mule deer out to 50 yards and beyond. Most carbon arrows are not available in lighter spines that are perfect for women and younger short draw archers. Thanks to Easton!

I expect to see a velocity in the neighborhood of 245 - 255 fps - not the fastest setup ever, but very respectable for your draw weight and draw length. Evan will let us know the real numbers after it's all set up. We may do some experimenting with insert and broadhead weight to fine tune performance depending on the actual velocity we see from the bow.

Special thanks go out to Easton for supplying the ammo for this mule deer project - Thanks Launch!!


Coop