The Mule Deer Project

[Jared Bloomgren]

Cindy, you are one lucky person getting this type of treatment from Mr. Mule Deer himself! Best of luck to you and Dave!

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Darin,

Could you please explain in more depth what the goal is for penetration, velocity and terminal performance. Some sort of reference point on numbers would really help me out. In other words, what is fast, what is deep, what #'s are the big boys shooting etc. It will help me see where I sit with a 50# bow and 26" draw length.

I had a dream along time ago that I've never forgotten. I dreamt that I didn't pull enough poundage and my arrow bounced off a trophy buck. I'm glad it was just a dream!

Thanks,

Cindy

Great question Cindy...

Unfortunately I don't have any hard rules to go by in regard to penetration. I can tell you that our goal is to achieve maximum energy while retaining adequate hunting velocity. As a shorter draw length archer with a 50 pound bow, you can't develop nearly as much energy as a longer draw, heavier draw weight archer would. Fortunately, 50# and 26" draw is plenty to get the job done - but we're going to err on the conservative side and assemble an arrow that packs a lot of punch in the form of mass weight.

For years everyone has argued that penetration is a function of kinetic energy. KE = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity
I wrote a pretty in-depth article for Eastmans' Bowhunting a while back with a different theory... I believe momentum is a better indicator of an object's penetration potential. Momentum = mass x velocity I do not want to take away from the purpose here to debate this topic since regardless of which theory you subscribe to as mass increases, KE and Mo increase in spite of decreasing arrow velocity. So both theories agree on more mass = more penetration.

We are merely trying to achieve a good compromise between arrow mass and arrow velocity. A heavier arrow is going to penetrate deeper but it will drop more if you don't estimate distance correctly so the trade-off factors are penetration or flatter arrow trajectory. There are others, but these are the primary considerations. A heavier arrow also reduces vibration and noise, and drifts less in the wind.

Smaller diameter arrows penetrate much better than large diameter arrows so we are going to use smaller diameter shafts for your hunting setup. Broadheads also play a role in penetration. The less energy they require to slice through something and in the case of expandables, the less energy they require to open, generally indicates their relative impact on penetration.

A cut on impact 2- blade broadhead is largely considered to be the best penetrating option. In my opinion that trait comes with a few trade-offs, more potential for planing (wind steering the arrow off course), and less internal damage (single slice rather than 3, or 4 blade options). Broadhead debates are a hot-button topic because everyone has shot good and bad ones and most guys end up using the last one that worked well for them. Again, that's a great stand-alone topic but would probably detract from the goal here.

I am proposing that we use a high-quality, fixed blade broadhead in the 1" to 1 1/8" cutting diameter. I think a 4-bladed head will do a bit more damage with minimal penetration loss since the blades don't generally contribute that much resistance or drag as they go through an animal as long as you don't encounter heavy bone. We will use the smaller diameter head because they tend to shoot much more accurately than large diameter heads.

By terminal performance I mean: dirt-nap deer, lay down & stay down! Don't even twitch, she will shoot you again...

A good arrow velocity range for you is probably 240 - 260 fps

I expect your arrow to weigh 320 - 340 grains

This will produce about 46 ft*lbf of Kinetic Energy at point blank or 0.366 #-force*s momentum

Hopefully we will get more than that out of your bow, but I think that's plenty enough to drive a 4-blade broadhead tipped arrow completely through a bucks chest and out the other side at 40 yards. That's good enough for me.

Don't get hung up on the numbers - they really are only valuable if we evaluate different setups against one another to see how much we gain or lose when considering velocity and momentum or KE.

I'm going huntin' talk with you Monday!

Coop

 

[david long]

The String - Winner's Choice

When choosing products for Cindy's bow, they are often products that I personally use and have field tested. The string is no different. I have used Winner's Choice strings ever since I stepped into archery several years ago. They are one of the best quality strings on the market today.

I contacted Mike Slinkard, CEO of Winner's Choice Custom Bowstrings, and told him about the Project. Mike liked the idea and offered to sponsor the Project by supplying Cindy with a string and cable in the color of her choice.

Cindy's string just showed up on the doorstep. It is a 24 strand, pink/black string made from 8190 material.

I would really like to thank Mike Slinkard and Winner's Choice for supplying the string and sponsoring the Project.

 

[david long]

The Stabilizer - Ktech Designs Tech 5 Twin

I have been using this exact stabilizer on my new Mathews Helium and really like it. Therefore, I wanted to use this stabilizer on Cindy's Hyperlite bow. The Tech 5 Twin Gridlock stabilizer utilizes Mathews harmonic stabilizers and harmonic dampers that can be positioned to allow different weight and balance options. It is machined from 6061-T6 aluminum, 5.6" in length, and depending on the configuration, either 5.2 or 7.6 oz.

I contacted Kerry Verran, owner of Ktech Designs, and sent him a link so he could view the Project. Kerry very much wanted to support the Project and agreed to provide Cindy with the Tech 5 Twin stabilizer.

I would really like to thank Kerry Verran and Ktech Designs for sponsoring the Project.

 

[Keno]

Can I have a mule deer project next year!

 

[david long]

Can I have a mule deer project next year!

Keno.......I have been receiving several requests from people asking the same question. Lol.

Already thinking about something similar for next year - possibly a contest for a gear makeover or something like that.

Once again, I would really like to thank all of the sponsors, because without their generosity, this project would not be possible.

Several other sponsors have already agreed to donate gear. I will post them up at the appropriate times.

 

[BroodBuster]

Very cool idea and should be fun to follow.

I also appreciate the fact the team is disclosing those items that are provided by a sponsor. Keeps it real

Good Luck!!!

 

[david long]

Project Recap

Just a recap of where the Project stands.....

1. Cindy has been fitted for a bow
2. Bow and nearly all accessories have been gathered
3. I have explained why Cindy was chosen
4. Cindy has informed everyone about herself, her family, hunting background and why she took on this project
5. Les Welch is nailing down Cindy's workouts and nutritional numbers
6. Darin Cooper & Evan Williams are nearly done with recommended arrow setup
7. A tentative date of June 23 has been set for Cindy to travel to Colorado for the bow setup/tuning session

Now it is time for Cindy and I to begin covering all aspects of mule deer hunting/behavior. Step 1 - Setting Cindy's Standards/Goals.

 

[Slim Jim]

Rely cool forum and site

Hey David just want to let you know how cool it is what you are doing for Cindy. I am new to this site and love it. I like how you keep everyone informed with what is going on. It makes it feel real and personal, not just a TV personality. Keep up the good the work and I hope that you continue to keep it real. Good luck Cindy

 

[BigSurArcher]

How far in do you guys plan on going? Cindy, do you have a pack already? I think it might be cool if some of us following members could pitch in to cover a few miscellaneous gear items that aren't covered by sponsors. Anyone agree?

Mega Kudos to David and everyone else who is making this happen! Gonna be fun to see unfold.

 

[Evan Williams]

This is gonna be fun!!!

 

[david long]

Step 1 - Setting Cindy's Standards/Goals

When setting out on a project such as the one Cindy is about to embark on, one of the first things you have to do is set a realistic standard/goal when it comes to harvesting a buck. When I first turned fourteen and was old enough to hunt, I already had the mentality that I wanted to harvest the biggest buck on the mountain. The problem was, at that age, I didn’t have the required experience it took to kill trophy bucks so I ended up shooting smaller bucks for the first couple of years. This was not all bad. I feel that harvesting the smaller bucks early on in my hunting career, helped hone my hunting skills and gave me the needed confidence and experience to begin harvesting trophy caliber bucks.

With that being said, I posed the following question to Cindy:

“Exactly what kind of a standard/goal do you want to set for yourself on this hunt when it comes to harvesting a buck?”

Cindy’s response:

“That is a tough question because I'd really like to take a 180 class buck, but I don't have the in the field experience to say what size they are etc. So maybe I'd be better saying I'd take a 150 or 160 class buck and then try to kill the 180?”

After receiving her response, It was clear I had to do two things: I needed to get her to focus more on simply harvesting a buck, rather than setting her sights too high, and secondly, although I don’t want her focusing too much on score, I need to work with her on field judging so that she can feel somewhat comfortable sizing up bucks in the field.

My response back to Cindy:

“Although it would be nice if you harvested a 180 class buck, I honestly feel it is more important at this time to get a buck "under your belt" rather than setting your sights too high at this point. 180" bucks can be hard to find and if you have your sights set on a 180” or larger buck, you may only get one or two stalks during the entire hunt, or possibly none. If we set a goal of a smaller buck, such as a 150-160" buck, you will most likely get stalks every day and possibly numerous stalks each day. This is valuable experience that you really need to be getting if you want to be successful at harvesting mule deer with a bow. If you do locate a 180 buck in the area and you are able to put stalks on him each day, that will be an added bonus. But if all you see is a 150 buck on any particular day, I would recommend pursuing it. Once you have your first high country archery buck “under your belt”, you will have the experience and confidence to set higher goals.”

Cindy’s Response:

“I think this sounds great and it is exactly the guidance I was looking for.”

I am really glad that Cindy listened to what I had to say regarding realistic expectations. I can’t begin to stress enough how important experience and confidence are when it comes to being successful in hunting – especially trophy hunting. Once she has taken one or two bucks with a bow, then she can set her standards much higher.

I will let Cindy respond to this post if she has any additional thoughts on this subject or the above email string I just covered.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

My Standard/Goal

I'm really happy with the 150"-160" buck as a standard. I feel like a buck of that caliber on this type of hunt will be a worthy goal and a buck I'd be happy to harvest. Also, like David mentioned it will give me more opportunity for daily stalks and that experience will be priceless!

Thanks to all of you following the thread and your good luck wishes. Keep them coming!

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

How far in do you guys plan on going? Cindy, do you have a pack already? I think it might be cool if some of us following members could pitch in to cover a few miscellaneous gear items that aren't covered by sponsors. Anyone agree?

Mega Kudos to David and everyone else who is making this happen! Gonna be fun to see unfold.

BigSurArcher,

I don't know the distance we will be going yet. I'm sure after our scouting trip we'll have a better idea what that will be.

I don't have a pack yet and I think that is going to be an interesting gear pick due to my back history. I can tell you the gear choices aren't nearly as broad for women in the hunting world as they are for men. But the great thing is that they are getting better and much of the gear can still be utilized. Stay tuned!

Thank you for your generosity.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Darin,

Thank you for the informative post #42. That helps me see where I'm at and gives me something to compare to. The fact that you feel it is adequate to bring down a buck is good enough for me and I wouldn't expect anything less from the set up.

How was the hunt?

 

[Becca]

I don't have a pack yet and I think that is going to be an interesting gear pick due to my back history. I can tell you the gear choices aren't nearly as broad for women in the hunting world as they are for men. But the great thing is that they are getting better and much of the gear can still be utilized. Stay tuned!

I certainly hear you there....finding outdoor gear for women is tough, and hunting gear even tougher!

What are you looking for in a pack? Are there special priorities due to your back injury? I am no expert, but I have tried a fair number of packs out in the last few years, (both men's and women's) and I suspect we're of similar stature. I'd be happy to share what my experience has been if its helpful....

So excited for this project!

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

My Inspiration

Here is a newspaper clipping of a winning buck my Grandpa shot. I was told by family that the contest was in 1952 Morgan and Weber Counties in Utah. There is also a photo of him being presented the winning prizes: a rifle, mess kit and binoculars.

I would give anything to have him here and go with me on this hunt.

My Grandpa is Marvin G. Mortenson the one on the far right in the newspaper article and he is on the left holding the gun in the bottom photo.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Becca,

One thing I'm looking for is good load distribution. (That's probably not the technical term for what I'll describe next) I think that if I can get the pack to fit me well enough to carry more of the load on my hips than on my shoulders it will be better all around for my back and I'll probably be able to carry more weight than I think I can. What are you're thoughts?

 

[Becca]

Becca,

One thing I'm looking for is good load distribution. (That's probably not the technical term for what I'll describe next) I think that if I can get the pack to fit me well enough to carry more of the load on my hips than on my shoulders it will be better all around for my back and I'll probably be able to carry more weight than I think I can. What are you're thoughts?

I agree that the ability to shift the weight to your hips (and off your shoulders) will make all the difference if you are wanting to pack heavy loads. What is your target load BTW? It may not be true for all women, but my experience has been that I just can't pack as much as many guys...I probably max out around 75lbs, and typically pack 55lbs or less. I think it's important to know what your expected and max load hauling capacity will be, because not all packs do everything well at all weight ranges.

I have worn women's specific packs by hiking and mountaineering companies (Arcteryx and Gregory) and honestly not been as happy with their ability to carry loads greater than about 40 lbs--I just had trouble shifting that weight to my hips, and the packs just didn't seem designed to carry loads with much weight at least on my body. I have actually had much better experiences with packs designed for men (although the sternum straps are obviously not designed with our anatomy in mind, but it hasn't been too big of a deal since most are height adjustable). Granite gear vapor trail, mystery ranch 6500 and Kifaru KU5200 (my current pack choice) have all been comfortable for me with heavy loads, and good at shifting that weight to my hips. A key aspect seems to be in the design of the load lifters, and how well they actually get that weight off my shoulders and allow me to drop it down to the waist belt.

Ultimately it's a matter of finding what works for you, and is comfortable with the kinds of loads you intend to haul. The best test is to try some on with weight in them if you can, and walk around while shifting that weight from your shoulders to hips and back. Make sure the waist belt goes tight enough, and stays that way throughout your movement and the weight redistribution--you can't keep the weight on your hips if the belt won't stay tight and in place.

Also something to be said for learning how to pack weight into a given pack, as in arranging to put the heavier stuff so it carries closer to your body well without pulling you down or backwards. This comes later, after you decide on which pack works for you.

Just preliminary thoughts, again I am no expert by any means...just learned through trial and error what worked for me and what didn't.

 

[Evan Williams]

I think that we want to keep Cindy's load down as low as we can simply because of her back. I personally would say a max load of 40 lbs at the moment and depending on what Les comes up with for her workouts we may get to 50-55 lbs. Just my thoughts.

Great posts Becca!!!!!