The “mobile hunting” push, vs. the lack of LW/packable whitetail clothing and equipment?

[brancher147]

I hunt mobile and pack out every deer I kill. No idea what the Whitetail Industrial Complex is and I don’t pay any attention to marketing. But there is better gear available now than there has ever been before it just takes a lot of research to find what you need for your specific style and your weather. And you don’t have to buy whitetail specific brands especially if hunting from a tree and camo pattern or camo at all really doesn’t make a difference.

 

[Rich M]

I have a climbing stand and usually hunt in jeans, or these thin pants when it is hot out. Thermacell is a requirement but also carry a head net for bugs. A good raincoat/pant set and a tree mountable umbrella come in handy. The umbrella doubles as a sun shade if hunting in an open area.

Just gotta do what you gotta do. Enjoy the hunting. If you chase every fad or wording, good fer you.

I still have a lock-on tree stand from the 80's that weighs about 6# - we used to use screw in steps. Not legal anymore, that's why the sticks are so popular.

If I had my choice, would still-hunt in freshly fallen snow - just more fun than sitting in a tree.

 

[magnum44270]

Have you ever heard of western hunting?

Everything you want is already there. Packs, layers, you name it.

We pack in for miles, camp on our back. Then. Hike more miles and sit and wait for hours.

I grew up with no money in Wisconsin Whitetail hunting sitting in a stand for 6-8 hours, Minimal wind and sub 0, Freezing my ass off.
my western hunting setups and clothing are a 400X improvement over what I did just fine with 30years ago.
Now I hike in 6-8 miles and sit for 4-8 hours in the cold and it’s always windy. proper layers and a fresh sock change keep me way more comfortable than I was back then

 

[Macintosh]

I feel compelled to mention again that I am NOT asking about peoples hunting choices, or whether "mobile hunting" is good/bad/indifferent or whether you do it or not, or whether you hunt in jeans and flannel versus the latest and greatest new thing each season. I am wondering why the industry that is using "mobile hunting" as a marketing tool is not also making and marketing lighter and more packable (and quieter) cold-weather apparel, or packs suitable for carrying late-season equipment or maybe even a deer, TO WHITETAIL HUNTERS. The comments are telling...people are having to cobble together what they feel is an ideal kit for their needs from non-hunting companies and from companies making products for a very different type of hunting. Its obvious it all crosses over, sometimes well and sometimes not so well, but its also obvious there is a hole in what is available and the companies focused on THIS kind of hunting are NOT addressing it.

It is clear most people posting think there isnt a market for it. A lot of the comments people have made about hunting in the east do not apply to where I hunt in the east, but I'm happy to concede that the majority of WT hunters may very well not hike more than a couple hundred yards, and that "mobile"is a small niche.

Yet, these companies exist, and they ARE selling product. They're sellinG it to someone, regardless of whether that someone is like me and said "finally, someone is making equipment for how I have to hunt", or if that someone aspires to hunt on public land but doesnt do that as often as they'd like. It doesnt matter who it is, someone is buying it.

So then if there is a market for lightweight tree stands, why is there not also a market for lightweight tree stand apparel and other gear? This is a question about the business, not a question about how I hunt or what anyone thinks of "trends". I'm wondering why no one has tried to market something like this. If they have, I havent seen it, and many of the best "crossover" products that would be ideal ARENT marketed as good (or even appropriate in many cases) for Wt hunting, despite those companies having a collectin of products for WT hunting. At least one person feels strongly that making warm gear that is quiet but also lighter and more packable than current options simply isnt possible. Fair enough, I am quite confident that's not the case, but that is the sort of reason I'm looking for. Perhaps it's cold weather being a niche thing more so than mobile hunting being a niche, I dont know. I think if it existed enough people would choose to buy it, the same way they often choose a lighter stand or a saddle. I would.

 

[SirChooCH]

So to be clear, what you are asking for is that you can buy your entire hunting kit from one specific brand that is basically a marketing company that markets the exact way you hunt for only late season whitetail gear? Even though other people ambush hunt sitting in the cold weather in remote places already with different brands? So you want all the logos match on your tree stand, pack, boots, clothing, I guess maybe even your bow? This would have to be either a very large conglomerate for that versatile work force or else a sticker company that manufacturers nothing but just slaps their name on all the individual needs...

 

[Swamp Fox]

I feel compelled to mention again that I am NOT asking about peoples hunting choices, or whether "mobile hunting" is good/bad/indifferent or whether you do it or not, or whether you hunt in jeans and flannel versus the latest and greatest new thing each season. I am wondering why the industry that is using "mobile hunting" as a marketing tool is not also making and marketing lighter and more packable (and quieter) cold-weather apparel, or packs suitable for carrying late-season equipment or maybe even a deer, TO WHITETAIL HUNTERS.

We're in an age of specialization. If you're not a specialist, you're accused of being a Walmart. (See the most recent Cabela's/Bass Pro Shop thread.) "Walmart bad." But specialization plays to your strengths as a business.

I hate that I'm too lazy to go back up the thread to find exactly who wrote something along the lines of "these guys make this stuff, those guys make that stuff, because it's what they know" -- making the point that we shouldn't expect cross-over marketing or manufacturing from small and smallish companies.

But some of the bigger players do sometimes take a stab at the whitetail market. I think there *are* some packs and clothing items that the "western-focused" brands have promoted to the east. Some Kifaru and Mystery Ranch packs come to mind. I'd think Sitka and Pnuma would deserve a mention for togs, but technical clothing is not really my thing so I prolly should shut up about it.

The comments are telling...people are having to cobble together what they feel is an ideal kit for their needs from non-hunting companies and from companies making products for a very different type of hunting. Its obvious it all crosses over, sometimes well and sometimes not so well, but its also obvious there is a hole in what is available and the companies focused on THIS kind of hunting are NOT addressing it.

I'm not sure why it would be better for Tetherd, say, to expand into clothing and packs for mobile hunting than it would be for us to just shop clothing companies and pack companies to find gear that suits us.

Seems to me a lot of companies --not picking on Tetherd here, LOL--have a hard-enough time putting out flawless products in their own niche without asking them to also get out over their skis.

It is clear most people posting think there isnt a market for it. A lot of the comments people have made about hunting in the east do not apply to where I hunt in the east, but I'm happy to concede that the majority of WT hunters may very well not hike more than a couple hundred yards, and that "mobile"is a small niche.

Yet, these companies exist, and they ARE selling product. They're sellinG it to someone, regardless of whether that someone is like me and said "finally, someone is making equipment for how I have to hunt", or if that someone aspires to hunt on public land but doesnt do that as often as they'd like. It doesnt matter who it is, someone is buying it.

So then if there is a market for lightweight tree stands, why is there not also a market for lightweight tree stand apparel and other gear? This is a question about the business, not a question about how I hunt or what anyone thinks of "trends". I'm wondering why no one has tried to market something like this. If they have, I havent seen it, and many of the best "crossover" products that would be ideal ARENT marketed as good (or even appropriate in many cases) for Wt hunting, despite those companies having a collectin of products for WT hunting. At least one person feels strongly that making warm gear that is quiet but also lighter and more packable than current options simply isnt possible. Fair enough, I am quite confident that's not the case, but that is the sort of reason I'm looking for. Perhaps it's cold weather being a niche thing more so than mobile hunting being a niche, I dont know. I think if it existed enough people would choose to buy it, the same way they often choose a lighter stand or a saddle. I would.

See above. I think you're boxing yourself into a niche of a niche.

If the ability to hunt whitetails like the Benoits did was a real thing for a large chunk of the whitetail world these days, I think things might be different.

But it isn't, and it hasn't been for close to a century.

 

[Macintosh]

We're in an age of specialization. If you're not a specialist, you're accused of being a Walmart. (See the most recent Cabela's/Bass Pro Shop thread.) "Walmart bad." But specialization plays to your strengths as a business.

I hate that I'm too lazy to go back up the thread to find exactly who wrote something along the lines of "these guys make this stuff, those guys make that stuff, because it's what they know" -- making the point that we shouldn't expect cross-over marketing or manufacturing from small and smallish companies.

But some of the bigger players do sometimes take a stab at the whitetail market. I think there *are* some packs and clothing items that the "western-focused" brands have promoted to the east. Some Kifaru and Mystery Ranch packs come to mind. I'd think Sitka and Pnuma would deserve a mention for togs, but technical clothing is not really my thing so I prolly should shut up about it.


I'm not sure why it would be better for Tetherd, say, to expand into clothing and packs for mobile hunting than it would be for us to just shop clothing companies and pack companies to find gear that suits us.

Seems to me a lot of companies --not picking on Tetherd here, LOL--have a hard-enough time putting out flawless products in their own niche without asking them to also get out over their skis.



See above. I think you're boxing yourself into a niche of a niche.

If the ability to hunt whitetails like the Benoits did was a real thing for a large chunk of the whitetail world these days, I think things might be different.

But it isn't, and it hasn't been for close to a century.

agree 100% with focusing. My post was specifically about whitetail-focused companies becasue I agree wholeheartedly that its in their best interest to stay focused. Others mentioned other hunting companies focused on western hunting, not me--I purposely did not include them for exactly this reason. I mentioned tethrd and lattitude--both small saddle makers pushing mobile hunting--specifically because both companies have recently introduced packs that in my estimation are not suitable for actual mobile hunting. Now, I think its clear from this thread that a lot of people dont need clothing for cold weather, in which case maybe a 16l or a 22l pack is sufficient to carry a saddle platform, sticks, "cold" weather clothing for after the hike, food, water, etc., so maybe those packs are more applicable than I am giving them credit for in a warm climate...although I'll still argue with that. But, take first lite with an extensive and dedicated whitetail assortment for all seasons. Go thru their "kit finder" widget, and it'll ask you to focus your needs including a filter for whitetail, region, temperature, and then 1) ACTIVE: spot and stalk, 2) MIXED: hang and hunt, and 3) STATIONARY: "established tree stand hunting"...so first lite focuses on this stuff enough to actually differentiate between just tree stand hunting and "hang and hunt" (which is yet another marketing clichee for "mobile hunting", ie "walking around in the woods with a treestand"). Yet the actual product offerings between hang and hunt and established tree stand hunting are more or less identical, and include a jacket and bibs that weigh approximately DOUBLE what my -30f sleeping bag weighs and is big enough that it doesnt fit in most day-sized hunting packs. I think FL makes some great stuff, I own a bunch of it. I just think they have an opportunity to make some more targeted items that "walk the walk" more than selling the same old giant over-stuffed clothing under two categories, and then I could support a company that actually cares more about hunting and conservation than Dynafit or Rab or some of the other companies whose gear I wear becasue it's SO much lighter and more packable.

Re: the benoits. They live in my backyard. The living benoits mostly dont even hunt here anymore, and the guys with standards go to NH and ME, but between here and the adirondacks where I grew up and still have a family hunting camp, I have quite literally several million acres pretty much all to myself, starting with tens of thousands of acres literally out my back door, and all within a couple hour drive. Obviously that's not the reality of the majority of WT hunters, but It's all I've got, and there's an awful lot of hunters within a couple hour drive of a big piece of woods who simply choose to not go there. Ditto for lots of places along the appalachians. Fine with me, but there's a whole heck of a lot of WT hunters who have the choice to hunt like that right now if they wanted to.

@SirChooCH You have that completely wrong, that's not at all what I'm asking or looking for. I dont care about any of the stuff people are throwing around. I already know and own what works for me. I work in the outdoor industry, have worked in product management for over 20 years, and I'm simply professionally curious if anyone else sees what I'm seeing. I'm asking becasue what I'm seeing is an opportunity that makes me want to start a business. Unfortunately I know better.

 

[KyleR1985]

a nylon shell down puffy packs really small and light.

It’s not quiet.

What’s other insulation fill packs like down?

What’s as light as nylon?

What is quieter, and both of the things above?


Again, I’m just saying there’s a technical practical limit here. And that limit has more predictive power regarding this “hole in the market” you refer to, over some complicated market assessment or conspiratorial thinking.


I would love to be wrong. The clothes I bring in the whitetail woods are heavy. But me wanting it doesn’t make it so.


Do you know something I don’t about fabric and insulation technology?

 

[Swamp Fox]

[...] and I'm simply professionally curious if anyone else sees what I'm seeing. I'm asking becasue what I'm seeing is an opportunity that makes me want to start a business. Unfortunately I know better.

NC State is here for you. The College of Textiles is about much more than tube tops and Spanx ... Or so they say ...

 

[Macintosh]

Sure, I helped guide development of equipment including packs as well as apparel for a pretty decent-sized global outdoor company for almost 20 years. I'm no textile expert, but I have worked in that field for a while. Absolutely no argument that a hard face nylon can pack smaller than a softer (and hence quieter) down-proof fabric. But that's the extent of the difference--the down is the same. There's over a 3-pound gap and about a 8 liter gap in volume between my solitude bibs and my full side zip down pants. I'm not saying we can snap our fingers and make a dead-silent down pant that is as light and packs as small...I'm saying we have a TON of room in between to find a half-way (or better) point. I own a prototype down jacket that has a pretty packable fabric that is pretty soft and pretty decent down-proofness. I'll say its 80% as quiet as my solitude bibs, and it's maybe 20% heavier and bulkier than my "loud" down jackets. With any synthetic insulation the softer but packable fabrics would work fine and still save weight and bulk. For me, I would be pretty happy with that middle ground, becasue I'm already using some "loud" fabric pieces in a few places where I have found I can get away with it. And since I really only wear them when sitting or in a stand, I am really not destroying this stuff in briars and brush the way I do with layering pieces that I walk around in.

 

[Swamp Fox]

[...] I mentioned tethrd and lattitude--both small saddle makers pushing mobile hunting--specifically because both companies have recently introduced packs that in my estimation are not suitable for actual mobile hunting. Now, I think its clear from this thread that a lot of people dont need clothing for cold weather, in which case maybe a 16l or a 22l pack is sufficient to carry a saddle platform, sticks, "cold" weather clothing for after the hike, food, water, etc., so maybe those packs are more applicable than I am giving them credit for in a warm climate...although I'll still argue with that.

My mom always said I like to argue. Like it was a bad thing, LOL. I prove her wrong by agreeing? I DO like to argue. I think you do, too.

But, take first lite with an extensive and dedicated whitetail assortment for all seasons. Go thru their "kit finder" widget, and it'll ask you to focus your needs including a filter for whitetail, region, temperature, and then 1) ACTIVE: spot and stalk, 2) MIXED: hang and hunt, and 3) STATIONARY: "established tree stand hunting"...so first lite focuses on this stuff enough to actually differentiate between just tree stand hunting and "hang and hunt" (which is yet another marketing clichee for "mobile hunting", ie "walking around in the woods with a treestand"). Yet the actual product offerings between hang and hunt and established tree stand hunting are more or less identical, and include a jacket and bibs that weigh approximately DOUBLE what my -30f sleeping bag weighs and is big enough that it doesnt fit in most day-sized hunting packs. I think FL makes some great stuff, I own a bunch of it. I just think they have an opportunity to make some more targeted items that "walk the walk" more than selling the same old giant over-stuffed clothing under two categories, and then I could support a company that actually cares more about hunting and conservation than Dynafit or Rab or some of the other companies whose gear I wear becasue it's SO much lighter and more packable.

This is not unique to the hunting industry, but tooshay. It is pretty lame if your filter picks the same products and only the same products to solve two completely different problems.

Re: the benoits. They live in my backyard. The living benoits mostly dont even hunt here anymore, and the guys with standards go to NH and ME, but between here and the adirondacks where I grew up and still have a family hunting camp, I have quite literally several million acres pretty much all to myself, starting with tens of thousands of acres literally out my back door, and all within a couple hour drive. Obviously that's not the reality of the majority of WT hunters, but It's all I've got, and there's an awful lot of hunters within a couple hour drive of a big piece of woods who simply choose to not go there. Ditto for lots of places along the appalachians. Fine with me, but there's a whole heck of a lot of WT hunters who have the choice to hunt like that right now if they wanted to.

The reason they don't hunt like that right now is because the deer aren't there and the success rates are low. I love the million-acre public land advertisements for the Southeast. What they don't tell you is it's mostly straight up-and-down old growth on poor soil that's not being managed very well.

There's a reason saddle hunters are romanticizing hang-and-hunts on 75 acres with written permission, and never walking back two hours on the million-acre national forest.

 

[Macintosh]

There's a reason saddle hunters are romanticizing hang-and-hunts on 75 acres with written permission, and never walking back two hours on the million-acre national forest

Let me guess…they tried it, but ran into an argumentative new englander who scared them off?

 

[Swamp Fox]

Let me guess…they tried it, but ran into an argumentative new englander who scared them off?

LOL ... Yeah, or some black bear poop...

 

[WCB]

I feel compelled to mention again that I am NOT asking about peoples hunting choices, or whether "mobile hunting" is good/bad/indifferent or whether you do it or not, or whether you hunt in jeans and flannel versus the latest and greatest new thing each season. I am wondering why the industry that is using "mobile hunting" as a marketing tool is not also making and marketing lighter and more packable (and quieter) cold-weather apparel, or packs suitable for carrying late-season equipment or maybe even a deer, TO WHITETAIL HUNTERS. The comments are telling...people are having to cobble together what they feel is an ideal kit for their needs from non-hunting companies and from companies making products for a very different type of hunting. Its obvious it all crosses over, sometimes well and sometimes not so well, but its also obvious there is a hole in what is available and the companies focused on THIS kind of hunting are NOT addressing it.

It is clear most people posting think there isnt a market for it. A lot of the comments people have made about hunting in the east do not apply to where I hunt in the east, but I'm happy to concede that the majority of WT hunters may very well not hike more than a couple hundred yards, and that "mobile"is a small niche.

Yet, these companies exist, and they ARE selling product. They're sellinG it to someone, regardless of whether that someone is like me and said "finally, someone is making equipment for how I have to hunt", or if that someone aspires to hunt on public land but doesnt do that as often as they'd like. It doesnt matter who it is, someone is buying it.

So then if there is a market for lightweight tree stands, why is there not also a market for lightweight tree stand apparel and other gear? This is a question about the business, not a question about how I hunt or what anyone thinks of "trends". I'm wondering why no one has tried to market something like this. If they have, I havent seen it, and many of the best "crossover" products that would be ideal ARENT marketed as good (or even appropriate in many cases) for Wt hunting, despite those companies having a collectin of products for WT hunting. At least one person feels strongly that making warm gear that is quiet but also lighter and more packable than current options simply isnt possible. Fair enough, I am quite confident that's not the case, but that is the sort of reason I'm looking for. Perhaps it's cold weather being a niche thing more so than mobile hunting being a niche, I dont know. I think if it existed enough people would choose to buy it, the same way they often choose a lighter stand or a saddle. I would.

The companies making light weight "mobile" stands, saddles, sticks...are not the same companies making the packs and clothing for the most part. As far as packs...they are literally designed to carry gear/equipment and clothing. Who cares how it is "marketed". Do you need a product to be marketed to you for you to buy it? I have an old 'Coleman' brand pack...weighs 3 pounds. I use this for late season cold weather hunts as a described in my last post. -F weather 1mile plus hikes in and out. I simply stuff my outer layers in it. strap and stand to it, sticks whatever. If I don't want to deal with extra "layers" I just throw a Heater Body Suit in....it is "bulky" but allows my to hunt and isn't really any heavier than extra layers.

Clothing is literally as light and compact as it has ever been. The Whitetail specific "systems" like the Fanatic from Sitka is like 6lbs and not bulky by cold weather gear standards. They are also literally marketed as being non bulky/light/convenient. You may not want to believe it but yes clothing is teetering on the edge of the light/warm/durable edge. You see it in the mountain hunting clothing...which is the next step from the current whitetail specific options out there. Also, it isn't just whitetail guys mix matching and patching gear together. You want to see strategy and mind games on weight vs. warm vs. convenience....try living out of a pack for a week in the mountains. Whitetail is gravy gear wise.

Again, I hunt late season, extreme cold by most whitetail hunter standard, often long walks in and out and long sits. You are making an argument for solutions that already exist. If you can't carry 6lbs of a jacket and bibs in one of the dozens/hundreds of packs that are available you have bigger issues. Sounds like you just want a marketing gimmick to purchase.

 

[Macintosh]

@WCB you have entirely misunderstood the posts you quoted. I appreciate the time you took to answer, but youre reacting to a different question than what Im asking.

 

[Lowg08]

If you really look there are a couple sets that are as packable as possible. Sitka aerolite incinerator coat 42.5 ounces (2.6 lbs) bibs are 49.5 oz ( 3lbs). That’s not horrible for puffy quieter whitetail. Skre guardian jacket is 2lbs 8oz and the bibs are 3lbs 10oz. Skre has 12 oz of fill in a 2X jacket and 11oz of fill in the bibs. Two companies have hit the niche. Two is better than none and for me satisfied my lust for whitetail specific lightweight packable. I’m good with it outside of that. The major companies already satisfy the other clothing needs. I see the wish but it would just have a higher price tag because of the specific niche and then it wouldn’t sell enough and they would discount and discontinue it. Then the eBay guys would buy them up and jack the prices up because it’s no longer available. I’ve made it for years in the southeast hunting the Appalachian mountains specifically blue ridge in WNC. I still say a nice western frame pack 2200 size or 45l is best for this kind of hunting.

 

[plebe]

I mostly agree with @Macintosh in that Western kit isn’t optimized for specific whitetail scenarios/gear-sets. A spotting scope sleeve/pocket is designed for a spotting scope. Just because it can be filled with Little Debbie’s doesn’t make it a Whitetail hunting specific feature. The problem is, what scenario(s) and/or gear-set(s) to optimize for. There’s quite a spread.

 

[Maverick1]

I feel compelled to mention again that I am NOT asking about peoples hunting choices, or whether "mobile hunting" is good/bad/indifferent or whether you do it or not, or whether you hunt in jeans and flannel versus the latest and greatest new thing each season. I am wondering why the industry that is using "mobile hunting" as a marketing tool is not also making and marketing lighter and more packable (and quieter) cold-weather apparel, or packs suitable for carrying late-season equipment or maybe even a deer, TO WHITETAIL HUNTERS. The comments are telling...people are having to cobble together what they feel is an ideal kit for their needs from non-hunting companies and from companies making products for a very different type of hunting. Its obvious it all crosses over, sometimes well and sometimes not so well, but its also obvious there is a hole in what is available and the companies focused on THIS kind of hunting are NOT addressing it.

It is clear most people posting think there isnt a market for it. A lot of the comments people have made about hunting in the east do not apply to where I hunt in the east, but I'm happy to concede that the majority of WT hunters may very well not hike more than a couple hundred yards, and that "mobile"is a small niche.

Yet, these companies exist, and they ARE selling product. They're sellinG it to someone, regardless of whether that someone is like me and said "finally, someone is making equipment for how I have to hunt", or if that someone aspires to hunt on public land but doesnt do that as often as they'd like. It doesnt matter who it is, someone is buying it.

So then if there is a market for lightweight tree stands, why is there not also a market for lightweight tree stand apparel and other gear? This is a question about the business, not a question about how I hunt or what anyone thinks of "trends". I'm wondering why no one has tried to market something like this. If they have, I havent seen it, and many of the best "crossover" products that would be ideal ARENT marketed as good (or even appropriate in many cases) for Wt hunting, despite those companies having a collectin of products for WT hunting. At least one person feels strongly that making warm gear that is quiet but also lighter and more packable than current options simply isnt possible. Fair enough, I am quite confident that's not the case, but that is the sort of reason I'm looking for. Perhaps it's cold weather being a niche thing more so than mobile hunting being a niche, I dont know. I think if it existed enough people would choose to buy it, the same way they often choose a lighter stand or a saddle. I would.

Because whitetail hunters are, in general, a moronic group of bubba hunters that only care about getting suckered into “running” the latest and greatest gear from the hunting brands, and only from hunting brands. (Is that what you are waiting to hear from someone in the circle-jerk?)

 

[Wolfshead]

I think that one is beginning to see some western hunting companies starting to delve into the whitetail world, Kuiu for example.
I have some of their pieces from years ago, and have picked up some here and there since, but by seeing how their “adapting” to the whitetail world is interesting.
Pieces offered have come and gone, as they try to fine tune their whitetail kit.
I feel like you’ve mentioned in one way or the other that it’s hard to get that exact thing that you need.
It’s either too heavy, or it’s not warm enough. It’s very quiet, but not durable, etc….
Being a mobile hunter is tough as you are in the need for light weight for mobility, but when you actually do sit you need warmth.
I also think that the whitetail world is slow to react in some ways. I mean some are still wearing only wool especially in the areas you hunt.
Maybe I’m not hearing you either.