The future of Lead

SDHNTR

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Put up some more windmills and obliterate the rest of the condors…easier way than blaming lead.

My 3006 has been shooting the same load into little holes since about 1985. Why should i change it now? 37 years later?

If they ban my cup&core ammo, i wont hunt there. It really is that simple. Some folks conform. Others don’t.
So if the option is cup and core or not hunt at all, you’re hanging it up? That makes sense.
 

chocolab

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May 21, 2022
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New England
lead kills birds IF they ingest it, just can't argue it. in some places it's more impactful than others. waterfowl was an obvious one. there are now a bunch of places where lead is not legal for doves on public land. raptors/vultures are the ones most vulnerable now, and more so out west.
 

Marble

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If lead bullets get banned, it won't be out of concern over hunters ingesting them (which I'm not concerned about). The push for banning lead bullets is coming from concerns over their effects on wildlife at large (game and non-game species).
I forgot about that part.

I wonder if it has an affect, probably does. I remember a thread on here awhile back that got pretty heated.

I dont want to kill a bunch of raptors, but I'm also not a big fan of copper. It's worked well for me, but I have had better results with my standard bullets.

I was thinking, "How on earth will I poison any other animals if I never lose the animals I shoot.?" Meaning, they don't run off and get eaten. But my carcass is always left there and sometimes I find the bullet, sometimes I don't.

And last year I watched a golden eagle try to kill mule deer at tree line. So I know they are there and will eat the deer.

Maybe I'll just stick to archery

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amassi

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May 26, 2018
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lead kills birds IF they ingest it, just can't argue it. in some places it's more impactful than others. waterfowl was an obvious one. there are now a bunch of places where lead is not legal for doves on public land. raptors/vultures are the ones most vulnerable now, and more so out west.
How's the raptor population in North America
Rapidly declining due to lead OR
Steadily increasing despite the use of lead and prevalence of windmills, solar farms, rodenticide etc.

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Goatboy22

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Mar 23, 2015
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This fall will be 30 years since I killed my last big game animal with a lead bullet, other than muzzleloader. Barnes bullets were kind of primitive then compared to now and you had to be careful with pressure signs when reloading. I would use Barnes copper in my muzzleloader too if they were legal in Colorado. Friend of mine swore by them so I tried them and liked the results. Barnes .257 through .357 diameter bullets, 25/06 through 350 Rem. Mag. Mostly 140's in my .280. Kill an elk every year on public land in Colorado. Don't shoot anything over 300 yards away, elk inside of 250 yards. My dad always told me if I had to shoot much over 250 yards I was more of a shooter than a hunter. If I was sniping from 1200 yards with my 6.5 Manbun, I would probably shoot some titanium tipped wonder bullet unaffected by gravity and the coriolis effect. YMMV
 

WCB

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How's the raptor population in North America
Rapidly declining due to lead OR
Steadily increasing despite the use of lead and prevalence of windmills, solar farms, rodenticide etc.

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No doubt right? I guess if you count being shot as lead poisoning you would have one of the leading causes of Golden Eagle deaths. I wonder if hitting a windmill is "electrocution" or if they include that in "collision" either way, far more than Lead Toxicosis. Hell the same amount of birds died from "drowning"

I have a feeling this discussion is a lot like the AR discussion. Many shooters that don't use it don't care and will side with the anti-lead side and state "there is no reason to use lead bullets" etc.

Golden Eagle.PNG
 
OP
A

alcvndnb

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Aug 25, 2021
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I know someone said that we had lead before batteries and we will have it after. I agree. We will have it but my question is, what will be the cost? If they don't have those cheap options for lead, they will have to buy the more expensive option to produce. IMO, we are on track for a forced switch over to copper. Partially because of the raptor and carrion issue but the other issue might be the cost lead in the future. Copper is getting more expensive with electric cars, "renewable energies", home building, and more. So maybe it gets expensive all around.

The Pittman Robertson fund is an interesting point, if they make it too expensive to target shoot, hunting and conservation across the board would be in dire straits.

I am one of those guys who has switched over his hunting stuff for monolithic bullets and nontox shot. Are they just as effective? Yes. You just need to know the situation they are effective in. Similar to lead bullets, there are situations each type of bullet is effective. The reason I did switch was partially curiosity and in some cases, it is the only option.

I do still use lead for target and clays but that is it. I am one of those people buying cheap and stacking deep. I did it before the pandemic and I will have powder, primer, brass, and bullets for years but now I am stacking the copper and non-tox deep for future use too. Hopefully they will have a purpose in the future
 

amassi

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I know someone said that we had lead before batteries and we will have it after. I agree. We will have it but my question is, what will be the cost? If they don't have those cheap options for lead, they will have to buy the more expensive option to produce. IMO, we are on track for a forced switch over to copper. Partially because of the raptor and carrion issue but the other issue might be the cost lead in the future. Copper is getting more expensive with electric cars, "renewable energies", home building, and more. So maybe it gets expensive all around.

The Pittman Robertson fund is an interesting point, if they make it too expensive to target shoot, hunting and conservation across the board would be in dire straits.

I am one of those guys who has switched over his hunting stuff for monolithic bullets and nontox shot. Are they just as effective? Yes. You just need to know the situation they are effective in. Similar to lead bullets, there are situations each type of bullet is effective. The reason I did switch was partially curiosity and in some cases, it is the only option.

I do still use lead for target and clays but that is it. I am one of those people buying cheap and stacking deep. I did it before the pandemic and I will have powder, primer, brass, and bullets for years but now I am stacking the copper and non-tox deep for future use too. Hopefully they will have a purpose in the future
If they're (monos) are situational dependent then they are not just as effective as lead bullets. In fact there isn't a single situation where a mono outperforms a lead bullet. So they're inferior in every metric other than feel good

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Mighty Mouse

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I know someone said that we had lead before batteries and we will have it after. I agree. We will have it but my question is, what will be the cost? If they don't have those cheap options for lead, they will have to buy the more expensive option to produce. IMO, we are on track for a forced switch over to copper. Partially because of the raptor and carrion issue but the other issue might be the cost lead in the future. Copper is getting more expensive with electric cars, "renewable energies", home building, and more. So maybe it gets expensive all around.
I think you're worried about nothing. Electric vehicles still use 12V lead acid batteries for controls, audio, etc. So even if EV's do gain a significant share of the automobile market, there will continue to be plenty of lead acid batteries to supply the ammo industry. If lead acid batteries (which account for 80+% of global lead usage according to this source) were to become obsolete someday, that might actually cause lead bullet prices to fall because it would free up a bunch of lead supply. Lead prices will fluctuate like all commodities do and always have done, but I don't think there's any real reason to be concerned about lead bullets becoming prohibitively expensive due to a lack of raw material.
 

Dos Perros

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I will carry two mags. One with whatever crap the want me to use and one that I will use to shoot stuff with.

Not necessary. It would be practically unenforceable anyway. Can you tell the difference between a polymer tip lead core copper jacketed bullet and a polymer tip copper monolithic bullet? I can't.
 

Bubblehide

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If they're (monos) are situational dependent then they are not just as effective as lead bullets. In fact there isn't a single situation where a mono outperforms a lead bullet. So they're inferior in every metric other than feel good

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Penetration is far better (I am not talking long range), making them superior in that regard. That is why they love mono's for large game in Africa.
 

william schmaltz

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Not necessary. It would be practically unenforceable anyway. Can you tell the difference between a polymer tip lead core copper jacketed bullet and a polymer tip copper monolithic bullet? I can't.
We're talking the feds here. The same group of imbecils that just voted to hire 87,000 IRS agents. I'm sure they would have no problem buying each wildlife trooper a $5,000 XRF gun to check people and write five $50 tickets a year.
 

GSPHUNTER

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We're talking the feds here. The same group of imbecils that just voted to hire 87,000 IRS agents. I'm sure they would have no problem buying each wildlife trooper a $5,000 XRF gun to check people and write five $50 tickets a year.
Another 87,000 people who other wise could not find a job.
 

displacedtexan

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If they're (monos) are situational dependent then they are not just as effective as lead bullets. In fact there isn't a single situation where a mono outperforms a lead bullet. So they're inferior in every metric other than feel good

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Weight retention
 

doc holiday13

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Sep 28, 2018
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VA
I forgot about that part.

I wonder if it has an affect, probably does. I remember a thread on here awhile back that got pretty heated.

I dont want to kill a bunch of raptors, but I'm also not a big fan of copper. It's worked well for me, but I have had better results with my standard bullets.

I was thinking, "How on earth will I poison any other animals if I never lose the animals I shoot.?" Meaning, they don't run off and get eaten. But my carcass is always left there and sometimes I find the bullet, sometimes I don't.

So the dude on the MeatEater podcast is also a hunter and he was part of the condor recovery program. He's fully against a lead ban because it can lead to bad things. Even though bullets do retain 80% or better of their weight, they do fragment (even the smallest amount) of lead when they impact, so the lead gives the surrounding tissues a peppering of small lead pieces. There can generally be a couple of options to prevent poisoning birds Fully bury gut piles in the ground, cart out the carcass whole. Possibly head/neck shots and cut out the damaged meat on the butchering floor
 
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