The Future of Idaho

[Hblazier3]

Avimor has entered the chat

HA!

 

[Hblazier3]

I think that going from 971 hunters down to 922 hunters by reducing nonresident quota by half would have made the biggest difference in my lack of success...that's 100% why I couldn't get it done

I think that going from 971 hunters down to 922 hunters by reducing nonresident quota by half would have made the biggest difference in my lack of success...that's 100% why I couldn't get it done this year

Holy Moly Amigo, where do I even bring up NR in my post? You NR boys are quick to put the defense on...

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have come to the belief that F&G depts manage people and money. Game populations are incidental at best. In the early 90s, mule deer numbers in west central Montana were through the roof. Extra tags were easily available. Every trip out I would see 300-350 deer a day. Big bucks, as usual, were rare until the rut.

In 1994 we went from plenty to nothing. Skeletons scattered around to even concentrated showed the majority died mid-summer. The extra tags continued for two years after the die off indicating the F&G dept had no contact with the field beyond the check stations.

Populations have continued to decline until it is extremely rare to even cut a track. If you see a doe she is without a fawn. I haven't seen a buck of any kind in 6 years. Thats with me in the field during the season for at least 30 days, 6-8 hours a day.

When I moved onto my place in the late 80s, my local summer herd was 25-30 head including plenty of fawns. I haven't seen mule deer during the summer on the ranch for 6 years.

I find the biologists largely assigned to public relations or office work as opposed to field exposure. My local ones have multiple districts to manage. Well beyond their capabilities.

I know this isn't Idaho but beware of what is coming. We have gone from endless supply to endangered or extinct. I get the feeling that eastern Montana and other states are on the same path. Maybe just slower without the die off. I think we won't see any attempt to identify the problem let alone a cure until license sales drop by 90%.

 

[Jaden Bales]

I have a question for you guys and this is sincere... If there are only 33% of the deer being killed today than 16 years ago, and 12% of the doe harvest, why do you think there's a problem with too many hunters?

In every state that I've hunted or researched across the west, the buck harvest is reflective of the population size and not the other way around. So every state from Arizona to Colorado to Oregon to Utah issues significantly more licenses than bucks taken each year (all mentioned are LQ states). Why do you think hunters are a problem when the harvest decline is proportionate to the decline in population?

 

[Elkangle]

I may have been a little quick but it wasn't regarding your post, your post seemed more geared toward a mismanagement of the resource, a post further down saying to reduce the nonresident cap to 5% instead of 10% is why I posted that but I believe that post has been changed as well

@Hblazier3

 

[CorbLand]

I have a question for you guys and this is sincere... If there are only 33% of the deer being killed today than 16 years ago, and 12% of the doe harvest, why do you think there's a problem with too many hunters?

In every state that I've hunted or researched across the west, the buck harvest is reflective of the population size and not the other way around. So every state from Arizona to Colorado to Oregon to Utah issues significantly more licenses than bucks taken each year (all mentioned are LQ states). Why do you think hunters are a problem when the harvest decline is proportionate to the decline in population?

My theory is because its an easy button to push. Blaming hunters means cutting tags and that doesnt cost people anything. If you actually looked and determined what was the cause, people would have to pony up time and/or money to solve it.

The funny thing about the too many hunters argument, is most people will complain that there is too many hunters and then turn around and say that hunting is dying. We issue a quarter of the tags in Utah as we did in the late 80s, yet people still complain about crowding.

 

[SageFlat]

1. Promote strong habitat and habitat continuity. Bitterbrush and sage equal mule deer.
2. Highway/Freeway fencing and overpasses like UT/WY to decrease roadkill.
3. No doe tags, more cow tags. Elk taste better and could survive on the moon if they had to.
4. Coyote bounty like UT.
5. Eliminate use of ATVs/UTVs during rifle season. They are a problem. Yes, I use them but would give em up in a hearbeat if everyone else did. Full stop for the month of October seems more enforceable than closing certain roads and areas and hoping people obey.

I don't have any grand ideas for the funding/implementation of these ideas, just my general take on what can be done to help muleys out across the west. I'm a selfish resident who doesn't want to give up opportunity for fear of never getting it back. I do not believe that much of the blame can be put on F&G. Just like CPW didn't want the wolves, IDFG doesn't want our deer to die off. They own very little of the land that grows the deer and the land is what needs help the most. Collaboration and cost-sharing for habitat improvement projects between federal agencies, private land owners, and special interest groups like MDF are what is really needed.

 

[idelkslayer]

A deeper dive into the unit cited by the OP shows that hunters numbers haven't changed much since the 1980's. It also shows that harvest numbers have been low before, such as 114 (bucks only) following the winter of '91-92. Hunter numbers declined following that winter as well and given enough time to recover there were some great hunting years between 1997 and 2016. Remember what happened then? Yep, a bad winter in 2016-17 that reduced harvest back down to 102 (bucks only) just like in the early 90's. And we have had several more bad winters between 2018 and 2023 that have kept herds from recovering.

Given time, good habitat, and mild winters and you'll see more years like you remember soon enough. Alternatively, you can freak out, demand changes and controlled hunts, and quotas; and by the time the herd recovers, maybe you'll draw a tag and get to hunt.

These things happen in cycles, don't lose your heads because we are in a low spot in the cycle. Protect the habitat and protect hunting opportunity.

 

[Elkangle]

I think it's very hard for the average guy to put his finger on any one big solution idea to help game populations or perceived hunting quality...I spent 4 weeks in idaho high country this year but only in one unit..the eb and flow of that one unit is completely different then all the other units across the state..after a decade of MD decline, I've been noticing an upswing the last few years ! But is it really an upswing for the entire unit or just a micro upswing for the small area I'm hunting

Every hunt I put effort into I see some kind of results, I talk to other guys on the mtn...feed them some bs about how bad it is, let them roll into some rant about all the reasons they arnt seeing deer/elk, once they leave I swivel my spotter over to a buck/bull I've been watching this happens over and over and over again...guys obsess over the negative and use it as a crutch for there own short comings. This trend parallels the rise of social media as well

Just some thoughts, don't take them too seriously...is the negative attitudes the root cause to the numbers posted by the op ? Absolutely not...but it's one that's easily within our control that never gets addressed

 

[TheTone]

1. Promote strong habitat and habitat continuity. Bitterbrush and sage equal mule deer.
2. Highway/Freeway fencing and overpasses like UT/WY to decrease roadkill.
3. No doe tags, more cow tags. Elk taste better and could survive on the moon if they had to.
4. Coyote bounty like UT.
5. Eliminate use of ATVs/UTVs during rifle season. They are a problem. Yes, I use them but would give em up in a hearbeat if everyone else did. Full stop for the month of October seems more enforceable than closing certain roads and areas and hoping people obey.

I don't have any grand ideas for the funding/implementation of these ideas, just my general take on what can be done to help muleys out across the west. I'm a selfish resident who doesn't want to give up opportunity for fear of never getting it back. I do not believe that much of the blame can be put on F&G. Just like CPW didn't want the wolves, IDFG doesn't want our deer to die off. They own very little of the land that grows the deer and the land is what needs help the most. Collaboration and cost-sharing for habitat improvement projects between federal agencies, private land owners, and special interest groups like MDF are what is really needed.

6. Allow real strong incentives for private landowners that actually protect land from development
7. Invest real money into buying up land, either Department of lands or fish and game, that is good summer or winter range and could become under development. A few years ago IDL had a lot of money to spend on land; it was especially unpopular with farmers, ranchers and timber companies who said they couldn’t compete with IDL on pricing and that did not sit well with politicians
8. Stop trying to grow the state’s population. There are absolutely people recruiting people to come here.

 

[Jason Snyder]

A deeper dive into the unit cited by the OP shows that hunters numbers haven't changed much since the 1980's. It also shows that harvest numbers have been low before, such as 114 (bucks only) following the winter of '91-92. Hunter numbers declined following that winter as well and given enough time to recover there were some great hunting years between 1997 and 2016. Remember what happened then? Yep, a bad winter in 2016-17 that reduced harvest back down to 102 (bucks only) just like in the early 90's. And we have had several more bad winters between 2018 and 2023 that have kept herds from recovering.

Given time, good habitat, and mild winters and you'll see more years like you remember soon enough. Alternatively, you can freak out, demand changes and controlled hunts, and quotas; and by the time the herd recovers, maybe you'll draw a tag and get to hunt.

These things happen in cycles, don't lose your heads because we are in a low spot in the cycle. Protect the habitat and protect hunting opportunity.

And there is the context I was referring to. But, let’s not detail the rudderless argument.

 

[brn2hnt]

Being born and raised in Idaho, I cut my teeth hunting in these mountains and hills, right outside our back door actually. I rarely remember not harvesting in the first few days of season. My example today is mule deer, I pulled these statistics from a general unit I grew up hunting and still hunt today.

Mule deer general season any weapons-

-2008

• Total Harvest- 528
• # of Hunters- 1258
• Success- 42%
• Antlered- 444
• Antlerless-80

-2022

• Total Harvest-178
• Hunters-971
• Success-18%
• Antlered-168
• Antlerless-10

The reason for my rant today is to shed some light on an overly discussed, under researched by average joe people topic. These stats are pretty average across the board of most general units.
My opinion? Either cap the tags, or follow suit with Wyoming. Our hunting oppurtunities are diminishing before our eyes. Fish and Game seems to not care. The facts dont lie, our experiences out in the field are real, and there is no preservation for the generations ahead of us.
Please comment your thoughts, write IDFG your opinions, and do your research.

I'll bite.

In this unit you cite, the average buck harvest from 2001-2016 was 474 and a std dev of only 77, so pretty stable overall.

Then... something must have happened because from 2017 through 2022, the average buck harvest was only 204.

Any guesses as to what happened between Oct 206 and Oct 2017 that could influence deer numbers so much?

 

[IdahoBeav]

I'll bite.

In this unit you cite, the average buck harvest from 2001-2016 was 474 and a std dev of only 77, so pretty stable overall.

Then... something must have happened because from 2017 through 2022, the average buck harvest was only 204.

Any guesses as to what happened between Oct 206 and Oct 2017 that could influence deer numbers so much?

It's Trump's fault.

Across the board the '17 numbers are bad due to the winterkill, but the winters were mild-average '17-'21. I would think the '22 harvest would have been better than the average for the '17-'22 span.

 

[OlPappyB]

They don't care about the success rates or the decline in muley numbers. They only care about selling more non resident tags and $$$.

 

[87TT]

Based on "on the ground Observations", 2023 should be up from 2022 and back to 2017.

 

[WRO]

Actually the majority of what I said was nothing to do with nonresidents. The part about making the general hunts controlled was simply to get rid of the wacko system that we make nonresidents go through on Dec 1.

So insinuation that making non residents who draw shitty OTC deer tags wait 5 years is not petty?

The problem is the resident population rapidly growing and every resident thinking that they deserve a statewide OTC tag.

Then on top of that IDFG stuffing units with decent populations with seasons that run later and getting the buck to doe ratio to lottery levels.

 

[WRO]

Maybe…but its impact the last 35 years in Idaho has transformed the landscape in southern Idaho. The fire cycles that have followed in its wake have destroyed critical winter habitat as well as hiding cover.

It arrived in the Owyhee's in the 1870s from historical records.

I personally would like to see more fires with replants of bunch grass. We hunted a couple of those this year that didn't have enough cover to hide a jack rabbit and saw hundreds of deer in them.

 

[littlebigtine]

It’s habitat gentlemen…always has been and always will be. Improve that or none of the other stuff matters.

The SINGLE biggest impact to mule deer population decline in Idaho is the invasion of cheat grass…followed by habitat fragmentation...which are somewhat interrelated. The sooner we can fix that, the sooner we’ll get more deer back to hunt.

Dave

David, I think you are correct. As hunters we tend to focus on HUNTING regulations as the fix to our problem but the bigger picture is how humans as a society affect habitat. We drive through it, we build towns in it, we bring invasive species(cheatgrass, knapweed, sheep) to it etc. I am a resident deer guy through and through and I was beginning to come around on the idea of capping general season or at least approaching it in a way that is similar to elk( create a target herd size by region and manage accordingly). Then I listened to this podcast and it flipped my entire perspective. Though I would not consider myself a “meat” hunter I’ve always been proud and satisfied to eat whatever I harvest. But now I believe that the harvest of wild meat is the driving force behind protecting the habitat it comes from. If hunters would stop our wild harvest or even begin to slowly taper off the amount of wild meat we consume while also ramping up our demand for domestic livestock, the land that we so cherish and that mule deer(even elk) rely on for quality summer or winter range will disappear. The US population will continue to grow and our reliance on this sustainable source of wild meat will be the single biggest factor that keeps it in perpetuity. Please listen to the podcast and spread the word

On this note, I am glad my girlfriend shot a cow this year so we don’t have to buy meat from other sources, but going forward I will honestly consider the food system that I am supporting and be much more conscious of the consequences that come from consuming it.

 

[b0nes]

Some of it has been touched on but increasing resident prices to insure that the non resident money(opinion) does not outweigh the resident money(opinion). Reinvest the increased revenue to habitat restoration and quit building subdivisions in the wintering grounds!

 

[idahodave]

It arrived in the Owyhee's in the 1870s from historical records.

I personally would like to see more fires with replants of bunch grass. We hunted a couple of those this year that didn't have enough cover to hide a jack rabbit and saw hundreds of deer in them.

I’d like to see more bunch grass planted too…but that’s not typically what happens after a fire. Fire burns everything, then cheatgrass grows back in the wake of the fire.

This all results in less deer…imho…due to less winter graze, and less hiding cover in the case of lost sagebrush.

I once worked for IDFG and my son is about to start his Masters in Rangeland mgmt at UI…but I’m admittedly not a mule deer biologist.

Your guess is as good as mine, and maybe even better. Sounds like your suggestion is to limit resident opportunities. I’d rather address habitat improvement first…but feel free to not buy a tag next year if you want to kick that movement off!