The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Beagle1]

Ah yes, the divine justice plan: love your neighbor, feed the poor, live with integrity and still go to hell because you checked the wrong religious box.

But the guest list will be interesting - Gandhi, Socrates, the Dalai Lama, Einstein. All roasting for eternity because they missed God’s invitation to salvation.

Meanwhile, in your heaven there will be the war criminal who “found Jesus” in prison and the televangelist who fleeced millions but repented just in time.

But this is a step up from Mayan child sacrifice.

 

[Beagle1]

The

Have you noticed how many of the people going after the Christian faith have dropped off? Jesus always wins .

The mistake of confusing strength with numbers.

 

[Beagle1]

The comment you’re replying to wasn’t to you.. I left one for you but looking to continue to converse.. that comment was very specific to a specific person and how they are conducting themselves.

Fair enough.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Ah yes, the divine justice plan: love your neighbor, feed the poor, live with integrity and still go to hell because you checked the wrong religious box.

But the guest list will be interesting - Gandhi, Socrates, the Dalai Lama, Einstein. All roasting for eternity because they missed God’s invitation to salvation.

Meanwhile, in your heaven there will be the war criminal who “found Jesus” in prison and the televangelist who fleeced millions but repented just in time.

But this is a step up from Mayan child sacrifice.

If you lived a good life and followed all the things you listed and when you die, you find yourself at the feet of Jesus and in Him recognizing you have a good heart offers you redemption and the proof you were wanting, seeing Him. Would you change your stance and believe and enter heaven?

No judgement, just a question that popped into my head after reading what you said. I’ve kinda wondered about that from time to time with people who are good people but don’t follow Christ.

 

[JGRaider]

Ah yes, the divine justice plan: love your neighbor, feed the poor, live with integrity and still go to hell because you checked the wrong religious box.

But the guest list will be interesting - Gandhi, Socrates, the Dalai Lama, Einstein. All roasting for eternity because they missed God’s invitation to salvation.

Meanwhile, in your heaven there will be the war criminal who “found Jesus” in prison and the televangelist who fleeced millions but repented just in time.

But this is a step up from Mayan child sacrifice.

Only God can judge the heart of a person, not man. He decides who enters heaven and who doesn't, period. If you repent and accept Him, you're in. If you don't, you're out. Let's not overcomplicate this thing called salvation. It's crystal clear.

Unfortunately, the majority of the people think like you do, hence......

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Beagle1]

OK , I'm done with you . I gave the explanation of morality as a answer to your question .
My example of the American Indians was to point out they lived a perfectly fine life without your God . I never said they didn't kill and have wars . I said they were a perfectly functioning society without Christianity.
You twist words around to make then say what you want instead of actually looking for the meaning implied.
You have a nice day , bye.

Ah yes, I see you are a victim of the classic - without God, you must secretly love kicking your kitten.

It’s always interesting when a believer suddenly forgets that entire fields like ethics, law, and moral philosophy exist outside theology. You don’t need sacred doctrine to know that hurting the innocent is wrong and that empathy, reason, and shared human experience do just fine.

All societies, including religious ones, have made horrific moral errors. History is full of people committing child sacrifice to people using “God said so” to justify everything from burning heretics to colonizing continents. If a believer stakes his claim for the moral high ground on “God said so” that isn’t the safest hill to die on.

Like you I get morality from being human. And that is different than a sacred text because it is open to revision. We call that progress, others don’t.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Here’s the difference, faith should not require blind allegiance or moral sidestepping.

I would agree with both. However, faith is not the same as blind allegiance.

The violent and immoral acts in the Bible are not merely human misinterpretations, they are often presented as divine commands or actions. That raises real moral questions that can’t be dismissed simply by pointing to human sin or selective readings.

When I spoke to atrocities, I was referring to events ranging from Jesus’s crucifixion to the crusades to current affairs. Yes, there is violence and immorality in the Bible that is difficult to reconcile.

Subjectivity cuts both ways. If it’s valid when defending God’s goodness, it’s equally valid when examining morally troubling portrayals of God in scripture. You can’t assert that the Bible is a moral foundation while glossing over or excusing its most disturbing parts.

I am pretty sure I already acknowledged the freedom of subjectivity they allows two different conclusions?

As for free will, we’ve been down that road before, and I’ve laid out my views in earlier responses to your position on free will. But I’ll add this, free will doesn’t absolve a powerful and just God from moral responsibility for his own actions.

You are applying your own parameters and judgement to God. Free will.

It shouldn’t protect divine choices from the same ethical scrutiny we apply to human ones.

See above.

Praying for you to have a blessed day.

 

[JGRaider]

You continually confuse "religion", which is man made, with Christianity, which is a relationship with Christ. I don't think God is too enthusiastic about religion personally.

 

[Beagle1]

Why wouldn’t I? If I were standing before Jesus, faced with undeniable proof, of course I would admit I was wrong. I’ve said before: that’s one of the fundamental differences I often see between believers and nonbelievers. Most nonbelievers are open to changing their views if presented with compelling evidence. Many believers, on the other hand, openly say no amount of evidence would ever change their minds, and they view that as a virtue.

You raise another important point: Why should salvation hinge on when someone believes in God, just before death vs. just after, especially if the ultimate goal is to seek and find God? If someone lives justly and honestly, open to truth, is the timing of belief really more important than the substance of a life?

Now let me flip your hypothetical (and yes, I realize both of ours are oversimplified). Imagine you die and find yourself at the feet of the devil — and every devout believer you know is there, too. The devil tells you the entire belief system you followed was a deception he constructed. Would you question your faith? And if you did, would that mean the moral life you lived was suddenly meaningless?

If I were in your shoes, I’d feel my faith was fundamentally mistaken, but if it led me to live an honest, compassionate life, I wouldn’t regret it. Just like in your scenario, good intent and a sincere search for truth still count.

 

[Beagle1]

I would agree with both. However, faith is not the same as blind allegiance.


When I spoke to atrocities, I was referring to events ranging from Jesus’s crucifixion to the crusades to current affairs. Yes, there is violence and immorality in the Bible that is difficult to reconcile.



I am pretty sure I already acknowledged the freedom of subjectivity they allows two different conclusions?



You are applying your own parameters and judgement to God. Free will.



See above.

Praying for you to have a blessed day.

Yes we differ on what constitutes free wilI but I appreciate the thought put into this.

 

[Beagle1]

You continually confuse "religion", which is man made, with Christianity, which is a relationship with Christ. I don't think God is too enthusiastic about religion personally.

Not a religion, now that’s a new one to me.
You just need to remove the sacred texts, doctrines, rituals, moral codes, and organized denominations to get there.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Many believers, on the other hand, openly say no amount of evidence would ever change their minds, and they view that as a virtue.

Because that is true faith. I, and I’m sure many other believers, have walked through times when our faith wavered, and maybe we questioned it altogether. Some may have walked away from their faith and came back.

For those of us who’ve been through this process, it’s entirely logical to say nothing would sway me otherwise other than doing and not seeing God and Jesus.

 

[Shortschaf]

Beagle1 post count in this thread = 149
Replies to him in this thread = 135

Total percentage is over 25% of thread, or about 14 full pages of babble

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Why wouldn’t I? If I were standing before Jesus, faced with undeniable proof, of course I would admit I was wrong. I’ve said before: that’s one of the fundamental differences I often see between believers and nonbelievers. Most nonbelievers are open to changing their views if presented with compelling evidence. Many believers, on the other hand, openly say no amount of evidence would ever change their minds, and they view that as a virtue.

You raise another important point: Why should salvation hinge on when someone believes in God, just before death vs. just after, especially if the ultimate goal is to seek and find God? If someone lives justly and honestly, open to truth, is the timing of belief really more important than the substance of a life?

Now let me flip your hypothetical (and yes, I realize both of ours are oversimplified). Imagine you die and find yourself at the feet of the devil — and every devout believer you know is there, too. The devil tells you the entire belief system you followed was a deception he constructed. Would you question your faith? And if you did, would that mean the moral life you lived was suddenly meaningless?

If I were in your shoes, I’d feel my faith was fundamentally mistaken, but if it led me to live an honest, compassionate life, I wouldn’t regret it. Just like in your scenario, good intent and a sincere search for truth still count.

Well i dont know. some people i truly believe would reject Christ even at his feet. im was just curious was all. like i said, no judgement at all.

I think the answer to your question is already answered. I think if someone who didnt believe was given the chance to repent from that and believe, that was due to a good heart. In the end, Jesus has the fine word on the matter. I can only guess based on what i know, however im not the judge. God decides who gets to enter His house. If he finds a pure heart that was led astray for one reason or another, he will likely call it back if i had to guess. His ways are not our ways.

As far as your hypothetical, im not sure. I suppose if there was a devil and hell, i would believe in jesus still and that was a trick by the devil. even if i stayed in hell, i would have to admit i was not able to squeeze through the tiny gates. and in all reality, i dont even know that i will get to heaven. I hope i do! but in the end, its God's final call.

even if when i die nothing happens and you are correct and we have no salvation in Christ and we are just worm food, i wouldnt regret it. by living out my faith i keep myself accountable to God so even in those times of bad thoughts or when i dont act well, i have some sort of accountability to hold myself to. a moral standard ive chosen to live by. im human and will fall from time to time.

Jesus is questioned at one point as to why he sits with sinner and tax collectors over the good people. His reply was the people who are not sick do not need a doctor. I know myself, I need the doctor.

 

[go_deep]

Beagle1 post count in this thread = 149
Replies to him in this thread = 135

Total percentage is over 25% of thread, or about 14 full pages of babble

I'm not being sarcastic here, his heart is obviously being pulled hard, something is weighting hard on him to want to keep being involved in this thread, hopefully it leads to his conversation. I'm not saying your being mean or out of line, but let's keep it completely positive.

 

[Shortschaf]

I'm not being sarcastic here, his heart is obviously being pulled hard, something is weighting hard on him to want to keep being involved in this thread, hopefully it leads to his conversation. I'm not saying your being mean or out of line, but let's keep it completely positive.

no negativity meant. I am pointing out the obvious observations.
Some conversations are simply beyond what a public message board can accomplish.

These conversations are hard enough in person. For example, I doubt anyone changes their mind about anything on Facebook--let alone anything as important as religion

 

[Plainsman79]

Why wouldn’t I? If I were standing before Jesus, faced with undeniable proof, of course I would admit I was wrong. I’ve said before: that’s one of the fundamental differences I often see between believers and nonbelievers. Most nonbelievers are open to changing their views if presented with compelling evidence. Many believers, on the other hand, openly say no amount of evidence would ever change their minds, and they view that as a virtue.

You raise another important point: Why should salvation hinge on when someone believes in God, just before death vs. just after, especially if the ultimate goal is to seek and find God? If someone lives justly and honestly, open to truth, is the timing of belief really more important than the substance of a life?

Now let me flip your hypothetical (and yes, I realize both of ours are oversimplified). Imagine you die and find yourself at the feet of the devil — and every devout believer you know is there, too. The devil tells you the entire belief system you followed was a deception he constructed. Would you question your faith? And if you did, would that mean the moral life you lived was suddenly meaningless?

If I were in your shoes, I’d feel my faith was fundamentally mistaken,

So you’re saying there’s a part of you that would believe in Jesus if you were presented with undeniable proof? Besides the witness accounts of others on here, scientific evidence like Eucharist miracles, documented apparitions like that of Fatima, miracles and events that cannot be explained, books about people having near death experiences with no Christian knowledge then talk about meeting Jesus or others having just the opposite experience of being dragged into the darkness. The one and only book that is the best selling book of all time. 11 different Roman rulers that tried to destroy Christianity not to mention the Soviet Union trying to destroy the church for over 100 years and yet here we are still standing giving glory to God for every breathe we take.

If you’re truly open to changing your views, Pray. Ask God to reveal Himself to you in such a personal way that there is absolutely no doubt it’s Him. But then you have to be open to his answers and more time than not, it’s not what you wanted or expected. It might not happen tonight, tomorrow, next week or this winter. But it will happen.

Matthew 7:7-8 “Knock, and the door will be opened”.

You’re a well spoken and respectful man. I hope you take to heart your own statement.

The answer to your second paragraph is found in the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Matthew 20: 1-16 it tells the story of a landowner who hires laborers at different times of the day, promising each group the same wage at the end of the day. I hope you dust off your bible and give it a read.

This is strictly my thought, but there’s a reason you’re hanging around this thread. I think He’s calling you back to Him. Prompting you to seek the truth deeper than you ever have before. Giving you resources through conversations in this thread to seek a deeper meaning. He’s talking to you through others, don’t ignore it.

Luke 15:7 In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.

Peace be with you man.

 

[Beagle1]

Beagle1 post count in this thread = 149
Replies to him in this thread = 135

Total percentage is over 25% of thread, or about 14 full pages of babble

As I am sure you are aware of “babble” works both ways.

 

[Beagle1]

Because that is true faith. I, and I’m sure many other believers, have walked through times when our faith wavered, and maybe we questioned it altogether. Some may have walked away from their faith and came back.

For those of us who’ve been through this process, it’s entirely logical to say nothing would sway me otherwise other than doing and not seeing God and Jesus.

Yes I understand your position. Many of my experiences in life have been the opposite and I consider myself the better for it. I have found when good qualities are taken to the extreme they can become a weakness and at that point it is better to reassess where I am at and why.

 

[Beagle1]

Well i dont know. some people i truly believe would reject Christ even at his feet. im was just curious was all. like i said, no judgement at all.

I think the answer to your question is already answered. I think if someone who didnt believe was given the chance to repent from that and believe, that was due to a good heart. In the end, Jesus has the fine word on the matter. I can only guess based on what i know, however im not the judge. God decides who gets to enter His house. If he finds a pure heart that was led astray for one reason or another, he will likely call it back if i had to guess. His ways are not our ways.

As far as your hypothetical, im not sure. I suppose if there was a devil and hell, i would believe in jesus still and that was a trick by the devil. even if i stayed in hell, i would have to admit i was not able to squeeze through the tiny gates. and in all reality, i dont even know that i will get to heaven. I hope i do! but in the end, its God's final call.

even if when i die nothing happens and you are correct and we have no salvation in Christ and we are just worm food, i wouldnt regret it. by living out my faith i keep myself accountable to God so even in those times of bad thoughts or when i dont act well, i have some sort of accountability to hold myself to. a moral standard ive chosen to live by. im human and will fall from time to time.

Jesus is questioned at one point as to why he sits with sinner and tax collectors over the good people. His reply was the people who are not sick do not need a doctor. I know myself, I need the doctor.

Thoughtful response. But as far as what you said about repenting before or after life doesn’t the Bible make it clear you must repent prior to death.