Suppressor causing chamber condensation

[wind gypsy]

Are you required to use chamber flags when not shooting?

If so I recommend this: https://www.amazon.com/MagnetoSpeed-RifleKuhl-Barrel-Cooler-Red/dp/B07TLF4KKY

Will cool you down and act as a chamber flag.

I have one, fair point that if I have to use a chamber flag anyway i could just use that. From the 2 range trips where I had issues it seems this could become problematic over the course of 1 stage before a fan is even installed. I never use chamber flags at the range but 'spose it might not be as big a headache as Im making it out to be.

 

[Lawnboi]

I have one, fair point that if I have to use a chamber flag anyway i could just use that. From the 2 range trips where I had issues it seems this could become problematic over the course of 1 stage before a fan is even installed. I never use chamber flags at the range but 'spose it might not be as big a headache as Im making it out to be.

I have shot a few matches suppressed in conditions that would cause problems and I never had an issue during a stage, and it seems that the wait to the next is long enough to let things dry.

I do use a Magpul fan right away though. Always pushes out a big puff of smoke

 

[wind gypsy]

Did a little experiment today because temps were in the teens with wind in the face. My lone peak 6.5x47 gamer gun has a 28” barrel and typically wears a brake. The tikka 6.5 creedmoor that has been being a bitch with bolt lift typically has a suppressor on it. So I switched up the brake and suppressor between the rifles.

After 20 rds, the action on x47 with suppressor was a little gummier feeling on lift but resistance was still light. Brass necks showed notably more carbon as round count grew.

The tikka 6.5 creedmoor with a brake had no stickiness with bolt lift on 30+ rounds. I put the suppressor back on it and after 6 rounds the bolt lift was heavy again. These are not hot rounds by any means. It was Norma factory 130 match ammo going a whopping 2700 FPS through the 24” barrel. The lone peak x47 was pushing 140 JLKs 2755 fps avg over h4350 so likely higher pressure than the creedmoor.

Might have to ditch shooting this rifle suppressed in the cold because it’s annoying as hell.

 

[Lawnboi]

Did a little experiment today because temps were in the teens with wind in the face. My lone peak 6.5x47 gamer gun has a 28” barrel and typically wears a brake. The tikka 6.5 creedmoor that has been being a bitch with bolt lift typically has a suppressor on it. So I switched up the brake and suppressor between the rifles.

After 20 rds, the action on x47 with suppressor was a little gummier feeling on lift but resistance was still light. Brass necks showed notably more carbon as round count grew.

The tikka 6.5 creedmoor with a brake had no stickiness with bolt lift on 30+ rounds. I put the suppressor back on it and after 6 rounds the bolt lift was heavy again. These are not hot rounds by any means. It was Norma factory 130 match ammo going a whopping 2700 FPS through the 24” barrel. The lone peak x47 was pushing 140 JLKs 2755 fps avg over h4350 so likely higher pressure than the creedmoor.

Might have to ditch shooting this rifle suppressed in the cold because it’s annoying as hell.

It is annoying. I have never had it happen with my 223 strangely so I mainly shoot that in the cold.

Or shoot like in a match, 10 rapid shots followed by 30 minutes of sitting

I also don’t know if the tikka is maybe more prone to bolt thrust than a 90* custom. My defiance does not exhibit issues as quickly as my tikka

 

[wind gypsy]

It is annoying. I have never had it happen with my 223 strangely so I mainly shoot that in the cold.

Or shoot like in a match, 10 rapid shots followed by 30 minutes of sitting

I also don’t know if the tikka is maybe more prone to bolt thrust than a 90* custom. My defiance does not exhibit issues as quickly as my tikka

Same for me with 223. I put 40 rounds through the tikka 223 today as well with a suppressor and no hints of similar behavior.

I think the tikkas definitely are more prone to bolt thrust or they just don’t have as much mechanical advantage for extraction. They sure seem to exhibit stiff bolt lift quicker than my other actions.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I also don’t know if the tikka is maybe more prone to bolt thrust than a 90* custom. My defiance does not exhibit issues as quickly as my tikka

I think the tikkas definitely are more prone to bolt thrust or they just don’t have as much mechanical advantage for extraction. They sure seem to exhibit stiff bolt lift quicker than my other actions.

I don't think "bolt thrust" is quite the right term as that has a lot more to do with the cartridge case design and pressures, but I do understand where you are going with this.

A 90* bolt is always going to be easier to open than a 60* bolt due to having a longer camming action (i.e. the force to open is spread over a longer distance). On a round with limited body taper, this will be even more evident. Add in increased carbon due to the suppressor and you are just stacking issues.

 

[Lawnboi]

I don't think "bolt thrust" is quite the right term as that has a lot more to do with the cartridge case design and pressures, but I do understand where you are going with this.

A 90* bolt is always going to be easier to open than a 60* bolt due to having a longer camming action (i.e. the force to open is spread over a longer distance). On a round with limited body taper, this will be even more evident. Add in increased carbon due to the suppressor and you are just stacking issues.

I’m speaking bolt thrust as it relates specifically to this anomaly that sometimes happens. I don’t know what else to call it because it’s not pressure, but can appear as pressure sometimes on the case. Iv shot in these conditions enough that I know it’s not causing any more velocity. I only have one custom action which is why I wonder. It’s not even causing a remotely stiff bolt, nor is it showing the same signs as say my tikka 22 creed would.

But yea a properly timed 90* action should normally seem easier, I can understand that.

Interesting bringing case design into it too. Maybe it’s the body taper on the 223 and 3006 that keep it less prone to bolt thrust issues with dirty chambers.

 

[SloppyJ]

Following. I've noticed some odd hard bolt lifts that I assumed were pressure spikes or bad sizing at matches.

Ill see if I can replicate it with a head on wind.

I also feel like i reached preasuee early in my 6cm but I have confirmed my brass is a bit under typical capacity of load data.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I’m speaking bolt thrust as it relates specifically to this anomaly that sometimes happens. I don’t know what else to call it because it’s not pressure, but can appear as pressure sometimes on the case. Iv shot in these conditions enough that I know it’s not causing any more velocity. I only have one custom action which is why I wonder. It’s not even causing a remotely stiff bolt, nor is it showing the same signs as say my tikka 22 creed would.

But yea a properly timed 90* action should normally seem easier, I can understand that.

Interesting bringing case design into it too. Maybe it’s the body taper on the 223 and 3006 that keep it less prone to bolt thrust issues with dirty chambers.

Yep, I understand what you are trying to convey.

Interestingly, cartridges with less body taper tend to exhibit more bolt thrust (rearward force on the boltface during firing) than those with less body taper. That is why you see a lot of "improved" case wildcats for break action firearms, specifically the TC Contender. A standard 30-30 case exhibits more rearward force during firing than that same case that has the body taper removed such as in the 30 Herret, 7-30 Waters, 30-30AI, etc.
The mechanism is that the case body will better grip the chamber walls under pressure and therefore have less rearward thrust.
In the case that you and wind gypsy are experiencing it seems to be the lack of bolt thrust (rearward thrust) that is causing the issue. Based on what you are describing your cases are actually gripping the chamber more and causing stiff bolt lift (similar to a clicker).
It is being exasperated when using a Tikka action due to having to overcome that larger force over a shorter distance (shorter force curve).

 

[General RE LEE]

I have this EXACT same issue and it’s not discussed when suppressors get heaps and heaps of praise.

When my suppressor starts to get hot at the range, I get annoying stiff bolt lift and ejector marks on my brass. I have to let everything cool way down and start over. It’s a bitch when doing load development with a can cause it creates false pressure signs.

I’ve been told it’s just back pressure accumulating in the can. Have to let everything settle down.

Dont get me wrong I see the benefits of a can, but I’m on the fence if I even want to thread my incoming Tikka Lite 6.5 PRC. Sometimes I just want an old school hunting rifle.

 

[id_jon]

Another thing to add to Tikkas, I had a bolt that started getting heavy bolt lift even on an empty chamber. Ended up disassembling the bolt, cleaning everything, and lightly greasing the cocking ramp, that fixed that. One more thing to check to eliminate a variable at least.

 

[Mountain_Life]

I had a Tikka 270 WSM with many of these same symptoms. @Lawnboi pointed me to this. Hard bolt lift/pressure signs on my case after 3-4 shots. Below zero weather shooting through a suppressor. The loads were far from max.

 

[wind gypsy]

Yep, I understand what you are trying to convey.

Interestingly, cartridges with less body taper tend to exhibit more bolt thrust (rearward force on the boltface during firing) than those with less body taper. That is why you see a lot of "improved" case wildcats for break action firearms, specifically the TC Contender. A standard 30-30 case exhibits more rearward force during firing than that same case that has the body taper removed such as in the 30 Herret, 7-30 Waters, 30-30AI, etc.
The mechanism is that the case body will better grip the chamber walls under pressure and therefore have less rearward thrust.
In the case that you and wind gypsy are experiencing it seems to be the lack of bolt thrust (rearward thrust) that is causing the issue. Based on what you are describing your cases are actually gripping the chamber more and causing stiff bolt lift (similar to a clicker).
It is being exasperated when using a Tikka action due to having to overcome that larger force over a shorter distance (shorter force curve).

My guess was that it's more bolt thrust from not gripping the chamber with condensation.

 

[Foster_65]

My guess was that it's more bolt thrust from not gripping the chamber with condensation.

I think this was exactly what I was seeing. I could actually see condensation on the brass for a sp lot second after firing and ejecting.

 

[ID_Matt]

Glad this thread got bumped. Similar issues with me the other day. Same load, same suppressor i have always shot with no pressure issues. Yesterday it started showing pretty good pressure signs on the 3rd or 4th shot. If i let it cool for a long time, then it would be fine for a shot or 2 then back to pressure. I even had some other rounds loaded to test that were 2 grains less and 100 FPS slower, still hot.

Probably 45-50 degrees outside. Wind in my face. Ammo shouldn’t have been too warm. It had been sitting in my pickup all day.

 

[eoperator]

This is something I've seen with 6 dasher 80g eldvt varget ddlti towards the end of a 10rnd mag bolt lift/moisture issues would occasionally show. Put it to the side for the day next time out same ammo no problems. I need to pay attention to Temps and wind direction in the future.

 

[Foster_65]

This is something I've seen with 6 dasher 80g eldvt varget ddlti towards the end of a 10rnd mag bolt lift/moisture issues would occasionally show. Put it to the side for the day next time out same ammo no problems. I need to pay attention to Temps and wind direction in the future.

I also have a dd LTI and the problem seems to happen a bit more often with that can than the other 3 which are shorter. Might be coincidental

 

[il_cop]

Reviving to see if what I'm experiencing is the same...

This is my first suppressor, frankly, I'm mixed on whether I'm going to keep using it, but keep thinking I'm doing something wrong or missing something, given the amount of people who swear by them.

OG 6.5
Tikka 6.5cm & 243
Was getting random pressure on a very middle of the road load after 3+ shot strings in different wind directions, not just 12, and I'm in Colorado humidity (<25%)

Noticed there was always smoke coming out of the chamber and gas port

After two shots, pulled the bolt and looked down the bore....completely blocked by smoke, it didn't clear for over a minute. I repeated this over several shots... Shot only after I could see through the bore, no pressure, shot when the bore was blocked by smoke, pressure (obviously).

Needless to say waiting that long between shots to avoid random pressure is a pretty time consuming way to load develop or spend a long range session.

When I couple this with:
horizontal stringing (can heat I assume?), always having to check and tighten the can so it doesn't walk, I'm generally unimpressed with the groups in comparison to before the suppressor, and the muzzle jump/sight picture loss with the suppresor on the 6.5 in comparison to the brake I ran, it has me thinking a/this suppressor may not be for me.

But again, I feel like I must be doing something wrong... I cant believe all these people on rokslide or at the shoot2hunt school shooting suppressed are having 2 hour range sessions just to shoot 20-30 rounds because the have to wait for smoke and heat to avoid pressure and stringing (?)

What am I missing?

 

[RancherJohn]

Reviving to see if what I'm experiencing is the same...

This is my first suppressor, frankly, I'm mixed on whether I'm going to keep using it, but keep thinking I'm doing something wrong or missing something, given the amount of people who swear by them.

OG 6.5
Tikka 6.5cm & 243
Was getting random pressure on a very middle of the road load after 3+ shot strings in different wind directions, not just 12, and I'm in Colorado humidity (<25%)

Noticed there was always smoke coming out of the chamber and gas port

After two shots, pulled the bolt and looked down the bore....completely blocked by smoke, it didn't clear for over a minute. I repeated this over several shots... Shot only after I could see through the bore, no pressure, shot when the bore was blocked by smoke, pressure (obviously).

Needless to say waiting that long between shots to avoid random pressure is a pretty time consuming way to load develop or spend a long range session.

When I couple this with:
horizontal stringing (can heat I assume?), always having to check and tighten the can so it doesn't walk, I'm generally unimpressed with the groups in comparison to before the suppressor, and the muzzle jump/sight picture loss with the suppresor on the 6.5 in comparison to the brake I ran, it has me thinking a/this suppressor may not be for me.

But again, I feel like I must be doing something wrong... I cant believe all these people on rokslide or at the shoot2hunt school shooting suppressed are having 2 hour range sessions just to shoot 20-30 rounds because the have to wait for smoke and heat to avoid pressure and stringing (?)

What am I missing?

What are the details on the load? What pressure signs are you seeing? Did you try any factory ammo?

A can will increase the backpressure in the chamber during the shot, but it will go away almost immediately (as in fast enough to not notice). A hot barrel can increase your chamber pressure, especially if you let the round sit in there before shooting. You should be able to tighten the can a single time and be good to go, a witness mark can give you a quick visual check to make sure it hasn't backed off. Horizontal stringing could be mirage (you should be able to get 3-5 shots without it being an issue on those calibers with that can, maybe more), trigger control, or body position that the slight increase in recoil vs your brake is bringing to light. When you talk about an increase in muzzle jump/loss of sight picture as well, I am leaning towards body position.

The fact that you're getting the same horizontal stringing between two guns means it's most likely not the can; unless the threads are timed exactly the same between the two barrels and the can indexes in the same spot where a defect would cause identical stringing issues.

I only speak for myself here, but for an average rifle (especially a hunting gun) there is no way I would pull a properly functioning can off and put a brake back on. Literally everything about shooting suppressed is better than shooting with a brake, from shooter to spotter to animal reaction. I think there is something else at play that's giving you issues.

 

[il_cop]

@RancherJohn
Ty

Never shot factory ammo but here are the loads
Both lapua brass
Both 40.6 h4350
143 ELDX at 2630 20"
108 eldm at 2755 17"

Same can, both thread 1/2 I leave the 5/8 adapter in the can.

Both swfa 3-9s

Could part of the stringing issue be that I'm swapping the can back and forth after three or four shots but still putting together 10 shot groups on the same targets? As well as having to rebuild my position for every three shot group because I have to wait in between.

You're absolutely right, the sight picture loss was when I was shooting the 65 in some awkward field positions, but that's still something new for me compared to the brake. Im able to stay in the scope when I'm prone.

Maybe I'm not cranking the can on tight enough, or to the same point every time, after the first 2 shots it loosens, and I need to crank on it again. For the witness Mark, just a line straight on the barrel and can with some paint pen?

Definitely battling mirage, I don't have a cover on the can, b/c I didn't plan on hunting with a cover.

Also thought some of the stringing might be the diopter / parallax setting... Between The mirage and that, sometimes I'm seeing double at 100 yards. I have to fiddle with the diopter, and again rebuild my position.

Is the smoke in the barrel not dissipating for so long common as well?