Student debt "Crisis"

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

A great example. This is exactly what I was referring to in my other post.

We have some friends in CA, he is a rocket scientist (literally), his wife went to a private x-ray school for about 30k a year for two years. She got out of school, had a kid...two years later had another kid, and now, 4 years later, she has no plans on going to work outside the home. She has never worked a single day as an x-ray tech, not one. Yet still has the debt to pay off.

Like you found out, things don’t always end up as you think they will, and are subject to change on a dime...

Sometimes hard to get someone to go back to work (or work that pays meaningful income or fulltime hours) after they've lived without working the job grind and life was paid in the meantime, it becomes their new norm and is tolerated/protected to some degree by society even if its against the wishes of the earner.

 

[NVVAHunt]

There are a few issues at play here

1) the cost of tuition has increased 3-5x since the early 80’s (depending on type of school and a few other factors).

2) the availability of student loans coincides with the increase in tuition cost.

3) the cost of tuition has increased more rapidly than the average median income

Price Of College Increasing Almost 8 Times Faster Than Wages

The cost to attend a university increased nearly 8x faster than wages did. While the cost of a four-year degree exploded to $104,480, real median wages only went from $54,042 to $59,039 between 1989 and 2016. There is a disconnect between the rising costs of education and the flattening of wages.

www.forbes.com

So now you have median income increasing very marginally over that time period (counting for inflation) and tuition increasing at a rate that can not be sustained by just using household income and BOOM, student loan/debt crisis.

I’m not saying that people don’t bear the responsibility of their actions (hows that women’s studies Masters degree going to work out?) but the entire system was made to exploit people by raising tutoring and making student loans more accessible to everyone.


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[ODB]

There are a few issues at play here

1) the cost of tuition has increased 3-5x since the early 80’s (depending on type of school and a few other factors).

2) the availability of student loans coincides with the increase in tuition cost.

3) the cost of tuition has increased more rapidly than the average median income

Price Of College Increasing Almost 8 Times Faster Than Wages

The cost to attend a university increased nearly 8x faster than wages did. While the cost of a four-year degree exploded to $104,480, real median wages only went from $54,042 to $59,039 between 1989 and 2016. There is a disconnect between the rising costs of education and the flattening of wages.

www.forbes.com

So now you have median income increasing very marginally over that time period (counting for inflation) and tuition increasing at a rate that can not be sustained by just using household income and BOOM, student loan/debt crisis.

I’m not saying that people don’t bear the responsibility of their actions (hows that women’s studies Masters degree going to work out?) but the entire system was made to exploit people by raising tutoring and making student loans more accessible to everyone.


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I’ve always been told that the university system was all about shaping and educating the leaders of tomorrow; to train those in need so they can have a better life; to increase knowledge and diversity of thought so that we can build the kind of world we want to live in, one that benefits everyone, of every race, color or creed...

What is this exploitation thing you speak of...?

 

[16Bore]

I work with two guys, each paying over $600/mo. It’s tough for sure.

No such thing as working your way through anymore. The only requirement is a pulse and the only way out is death.

There isn’t an investor alive that wouldn’t take that deal.

 

[NVVAHunt]

I’ve always been told that the university system was all about shaping and educating the leaders of tomorrow; to train those in need so they can have a better life; to increase knowledge and diversity of thought so that we can build the kind of world we want to live in, one that benefits everyone, of every race, color or creed...

What is this exploitation thing you speak of...?

When was the last time you were involved in a college or university program? I ask this purely for perspective and time period and mean no offense by this.

At one time your statement was true, but it has applied less and less over the last 20-30 years. Is there a justifiable reason why Colleges and Universities tuition costs have outpaced just about everything else with increases in costs? I doubt that the cost or teaching kids has gone up by that much, especially when they charge students technology fees, lab fees, etc to cover those kinds of things. Has the education gotten any better for the increase in cost?

Look at some of the offerings these universities have knowing that there is zero future in them. Gender studies, religion and theology, philosophy, comedic arts, drama/theater, LATIN, can all be an option for people. And no mater what universities will line up and take the kids money for what they know are worthless degrees, and offer no counseling to the students otherwise.

I urge you to do some research on the topic because there is lots of information out there. I have attached a TEDX that does a pretty good job of going over this topic.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sajay_sam...loit_students_for_profit?language=en#t-194032

 

[Midwest.Bushlore]

Supply and demand

People are demanding useless products or there's a great supply of useless products? Or both?

 

[ODB]

When was the last time you were involved in a college or university program? I ask this purely for perspective and time period and mean no offense by this.

At one time your statement was true, but it has applied less and less over the last 20-30 years. Is there a justifiable reason why Colleges and Universities tuition costs have outpaced just about everything else with increases in costs? I doubt that the cost or teaching kids has gone up by that much, especially when they charge students technology fees, lab fees, etc to cover those kinds of things. Has the education gotten any better for the increase in cost?

Look at some of the offerings these universities have knowing that there is zero future in them. Gender studies, religion and theology, philosophy, comedic arts, drama/theater, LATIN, can all be an option for people. And no mater what universities will line up and take the kids money for what they know are worthless degrees, and offer no counseling to the students otherwise.

I urge you to do some research on the topic because there is lots of information out there. I have attached a TEDX that does a pretty good job of going over this topic.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sajay_sam...loit_students_for_profit?language=en#t-194032

I graduated in 2015. From UW in Seattle. From the liberal arts department....oh, I know all about what goes on in colleges today; post-modern third-wave feminists, the whole bit. To be honest with you, it was illuminating to be there as an older dude in a sea of clueless youngsters. I kind of created my own degree within the department, studying those worthless topics like rhetoric, English, and writing, because well, that’s what I like. Turned out OK.

And no, I have no debt. I paid for classes at the community college level as I went, then transferred full-time to UW for two years. I worked full time, had a wife and kid, and took out loans to cover. Saved enough while going to school that I paid off the loan in a year. Could have paid the lump sum all at once, but used it as a hedge as I transitioned jobs as the one I had while in school was sunsetting.

More info than you asked, but that’s how it went...

 

[timekiller13]

It all comes down to the great big lie that was perpetuated for years. That lie was "You have to have a 4 year degree to be successful." I was told that lie in 2002 when I was nearing the end of high school. I believed that lie. I was 17 and didn't know any better. Adults, people who were older, wiser and more experienced than me were telling me "Get a degree, get loans to pay for the degree. You have to have a degree to get a good job." I believed them. I got a degree. It was worthless. Couldn't find a job in my degree field to save my life (despite what the school counselors told me, they said I wouldn't have an issue getting a job). I took a job in a completely different field.

I don't even use my first degree, in fact I never have. I went back to school several years later and got a 2 yr nursing degree. That 2 yr degree cost 1/10 of what my 4 yr degree cost, but I have made 200x more money with my 2yr degree.

 

[Midwest.Bushlore]

It's interesting, too, that as tuition rates rise and endowments grow, instructors are making less and less. Many schools are using adjuncts and contract labor for the same reason Walmart does- part time employees don't get benefits, meaning more money can be pumped uphill.

To find out why things are the way they are, you can follow the money nearly 100% of the time.

 

[boom]

Cooking....no. Culinary Academy is the perfect example. Big money to get thru it. You come out the other side and the best you’re ever gonna do unless you’re freaky good and good looking , you find yourself with a $15/hour job.

 

[zacattack]

People are demanding useless products or there's a great supply of useless products? Or both?

Both unfortunately.

 

[NVVAHunt]

I graduated in 2015. From UW in Seattle. From the liberal arts department....oh, I know all about what goes on in colleges today; post-modern third-wave feminists, the whole bit. To be honest with you, it was illuminating to be there as an older dude in a sea of clueless youngsters. I kind of created my own degree within the department, studying those worthless topics like rhetoric, English, and writing, because well, that’s what I like. Turned out OK.

And no, I have no debt. I paid for classes at the community college level as I went, then transferred full-time to UW for two years. I worked full time, had a wife and kid, and took out loans to cover. Saved enough while going to school that I paid off the loan in a year. Could have paid the lump sum all at once, but used it as a hedge as I transitioned jobs as the one I had while in school was sunsetting.

More info than you asked, but that’s how it went...

See I think that because you were a little older you were able to navigate the potholes a lot better. And congrats on surviving liberal arts college in Seattle, I don’t think I would have made it (although I enjoy visiting my wife’s family out there). I’m a big proponent of holding off a year or two before going to school or at least doing your first few years at a junior/community college and it’s a shame that too few people pursue that as an option. When I was younger it was frowned upon or stigmatized. I know when I was 18 and did my undergrad I could have benefited from being a little older and more mature. I was able to pay off the little scent I had in a few years. The MBA I just finished is probably a different story.




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[ODB]

See I think that because you were a little older you were able to navigate the potholes a lot better. And congrats on surviving liberal arts college in Seattle, I don’t think I would have made it (although I enjoy visiting my wife’s family out there). I’m a big proponent of holding off a year or two before going to school or at least doing your first few years at a junior/community college and it’s a shame that too few people pursue that as an option. When I was younger it was frowned upon or stigmatized. I know when I was 18 and did my undergrad I could have benefited from being a little older and more mature. I was able to pay off the little scent I had in a few years. The MBA I just finished is probably a different story.




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Oh, I hit plenty of potholes...;-)

Here’s another wrinkle...UW has a HUGE Asian student body, meaning coming mainly from China/Japan to study there then go back. They pay out of state tuition and their families are happy to do so. The university has been accused of courting these out of staters for the express purpose of getting their hands on the extra cash. One of the professors there was reprimanded for saying as such on the radio! Now, think about ridiculous tuition rates, add in the out of state factor and let it simmer a bit...starts to make sense.

 

[Savage99]

It all comes down to the great big lie that was perpetuated for years. That lie was "You have to have a 4 year degree to be successful." I was told that lie in 2002 when I was nearing the end of high school. I believed that lie. I was 17 and didn't know any better. Adults, people who were older, wiser and more experienced than me were telling me "Get a degree, get loans to pay for the degree. You have to have a degree to get a good job." I believed them. I got a degree. It was worthless. Couldn't find a job in my degree field to save my life (despite what the school counselors told me, they said I wouldn't have an issue getting a job). I took a job in a completely different field.

I don't even use my first degree, in fact I never have. I went back to school several years later and got a 2 yr nursing degree. That 2 yr degree cost 1/10 of what my 4 yr degree cost, but I have made 200x more money with my 2yr degree.

I pretty much echo this. Neither parent or anyone in my family had a college degree, much less attended. I started college after high school (2000) for those reasons. Then quit and had about 15 different jobs by 23, then found my heading and went back, this time in pursuit of engineering. There were no good opportunities for tradesmen like I see now where we live and there wasn’t family connections or a business to fall into. I saw a worthwhile college degree as the only way to change my stars. Paying some on a loan I took to get thru and finish. A part time job would not have done it.

I will say this though, for me, getting through engineering school gave me many tools I use today that I didn’t have before or didn’t know I possessed. For one, I did something I wasn’t sure of before or during and somehow managed to first get by, then succeed, and by my last year excel at. It changed my mindset. Couple that with the fact the engineering jobs pay well, and I would take that loan any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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[Oldffemt]

I’ve always wondered why basic economics was never taught in grade school. You know, credit cards, debts, checking accounts, taxes, compounding interest....must be a reason, but can’t put my finger on it...

Not sure I want any of the teachers my kids have had to teach them this. As a parent, it’s my job to make sure my boys are well prepared for big boy life. I’ve encouraged them to take up a trade and earn while their buddies are going backwards. I also started teaching them about taxes, intrest, credit cards and debt at a very young age. They watched me and the wife work our tails off to get debt free and they know that we go without sometimes to stay that way but they never lack anything important. Family, church, morals and character are the key ingredients. With the amount of info at our fingertips, very few actually “need” a degree.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Higher learning is no longer educational...it's mostly a scam. Vocational schools teach skills that lead to salaries.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Rule of thumb: never take out more money in student loans than the annual salary of your first job after graduation.

$50k in loans for a civil, chem, mech, etc. engineering degree, you're going to be alright

$100k in loans for a liberal arts degree, you're going to be in trouble

However, college tuition has skyrocketed because of the government student loan program. The government is essentially throwing money at these schools, and the universities are adding all kinds of unnecessary curriculum, programs, buildings, and fees.

 

[NVVAHunt]

Oh, I hit plenty of potholes...;-)

Here’s another wrinkle...UW has a HUGE Asian student body, meaning coming mainly from China/Japan to study there then go back. They pay out of state tuition and their families are happy to do so. The university has been accused of courting these out of staters for the express purpose of getting their hands on the extra cash. One of the professors there was reprimanded for saying as such on the radio! Now, think about ridiculous tuition rates, add in the out of state factor and let it simmer a bit...starts to make sense.

Well it is Seattle after all....

The MBA program I attended also had a large international student population mostly from the Middle East though. Lots of Saudi money and some diplomats kids. Same thing, we’re here for school and most likely were heading home after but the school was happy to take all their money and gave them some special treatment (at least from what my peers and I saw).


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[S.Clancy]

Lots of good comments here.

A quick google search shows that tuition has increased 170-200% depending on in state and out of state over the last 20 years. Have wages kept up with that increase in tuition? Has the quality of education increased by 200% over the last 20 years? What these universities, and most are public, are charging should be criminal! A lot of blame is placed on the students for signing up for this, but the entire higher education system is a joke. Students are getting ripped off by universities and they are emboldened to continue because of the seemingly endless supply of cash coming in the form of student loans. I graduated college in 2014 with about $8k in debt that I paid off within 6 months, but my same degree for a student graduating in 2019 would have cost 50% more in 5 years! WTF! Give me a break.

Our in-state universities (MT) have increase at 2% and 4% per year for resident and non-res tuition respectively....Private colleges are likely much more

 

[Clarktar]

Our in-state universities (MT) have increase at 2% and 4% per year for resident and non-res tuition respectively....Private colleges are likely much more

They have to do something to attract students! Keeping yearly increases low is likely the approach.

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