Stock vs Chassis for Field Shooting

[dirtytough]

I've used a chassis. Using it in the cold is a non issue. I know form mentioned there is zero benefit to metal. Since form brought him up I will also. I'm pretty sure Justin missed a chip shot or 2 on a big antelope a few years ago. It made zero sense. He shoots enough and had a solid rest. He's going to make the shot 10 out of 10 times. After he got back from the hunt he figured out his stock was actually broken. I believe it was a McMillin. Seems like a plus 1 for metal over composite. As many failures as form sees when it comes to equipment I'm surprised he hasn't seen broken stocks.

Whether its a chassis or stock I'll take a rail. Since there is one less thing to break using a machined in rail compared to a rail bolted to the stock I'll take a chassis. I have made shots with a tripod I know most can't make with trekking poles. And I doubt it's any faster to unstrap a couple trekking poles from my pack and loop the handles compared to unstrapping my tripod and extending each leg 1 time. And even if it's 2 seconds slower to use the tripod I'll take the added stability for a couple second penalty.

I also use a bipod.

There is 1 specialty grip I love using. In fact it has features nothing else does. I can't use it on a stock. That is my most used setup especially for killing. Since I believe consistency is going to make me more efficient I have started swapping out equipment so everything is about the same. Same scope, reticle, chassis, trigger, etc.

This is the long range forum. If I have to shoot so fast I need to contort my body in an awkward position to use a natural rest instead of setting up on a bipod or tripod because of the time, I'll pass on the shot. I am not good enough to be rushing a long range shot.

Form mentioned that he is fine without bipod, tripod, rear bag, etc out to 1200m. That is extremely good shooting if we are basing it on a 10" vital like RS did for the CBC. Form is in a completely different league compared to 99.9% of hunters. Most hunters need the "crutch" of a bipod/tripod/rear bag. Myself included.

 

[Macintosh]

Lots of people in this thread have way more experience than me. However, I AM pretty much "the average hunter" that would be in the position of choosing between a chassis and stock, i.e. I hunt a lot and I also shoot casual matches and own chassis rifles. I think whats missing from the conversation is versatility--for me, a hunting rifle needs to be pretty darn good at a LOT of different types of hunting, more so than it needs to be great at one specific type of hunting. Regardless of which one is more perfect, for all the reasons already mentioned (especially carrying comfort, weight and heat-conductivity) my standard rifle stock suits me much better at my version of "long range" hunting, than my chassis does at the hunting I find myself doing most of the time, so I dont see myself choosing a chassis for a hunting rifle any time soon. Perhaps if I lived somewhere where every shot had the potential to be in the next zip code I would feel differently, but even when I travel to hunt in the west I just dont find myself needing to shoot beyond where a decent standard hunting rifle with a good dialing scope becomes a limiting factor (and I have still clipped it into a tripod, used a bipod, etc while hunting in the west)...but the chassis' I am familiar with would absolutely be a limiting factor (or at least a frustration) where I do hunt most of the time.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've used a chassis. Using it in the cold is a non issue.

This I’m not seeing. Most else is a matter of degree as far as whether someone leans one way or the other. Saying cold doesn’t matter with metal chassis is perplexing and we must not not be speaking on the same thing. Other than 40lb rifles not being realistic general hunting rifles, the metal thing should be the easiest to arrive at the same conclusion.

Carrying a metal chassis rifle in your hands, and/or shooting with a metal chassis for extended periods of time in sub 20°F isn’t an issue?

I am shooting 90 plus days a year in cold weather with dozens of people where the snow doesn’t melt for 4 months and average daytime temps are mid 20’s or below. Every person I have ever shot with in this- quite a few from this forum, have all realized quickly that when shot and compared side by side wood is better than all else for comfort, then carbon fiber/Kevlar, then polymer. Metal is by far the worst. When November hits I have rolls and rolls of self adhering vet wrap available for everyone, because they all end up wrapping the metal guns from front to back.

I know form mentioned there is zero benefit to metal. Since form brought him up I will also. I'm pretty sure Justin missed a chip shot or 2 on a big antelope a few years ago. It made zero sense. He shoots enough and had a solid rest. He's going to make the shot 10 out of 10 times. After he got back from the hunt he figured out his stock was actually broken. I believe it was a McMillin. Seems like a plus 1 for metal over composite. As many failures as form sees when it comes to equipment I'm surprised he hasn't seen broken stocks.

Stocks break. So do chassis. In any legitimate product, actual failure is extremely rare. I can’t say I have seen any real difference there. From memory I think I have personally seen two carbon fiber/Kevlar stocks broken, and three chassis inlets messed up bad enough to need repaired due to the action moving. This is excepting the “horse broke it in between a tree” scenario, which will break any of them.

Whether its a chassis or stock I'll take a rail. Since there is one less thing to break using a machined in rail compared to a rail bolted to the stock I'll take a chassis. I have made shots with a tripod I know most can't make with trekking poles. And I doubt it's any faster to unstrap a couple trekking poles from my pack and loop the handles compared to unstrapping my tripod and extending each leg 1 time. And even if it's 2 seconds slower to use the tripod I'll take the added stability for a couple second penalty.

I don’t disagree with what you are doing/saying, except what is your on demand time to sitting or kneeling with getting a tripod setup and putting two shots into a 2-3 MOA target? Genuine question.

One of the fastest people to set up a tripod (from stored on the pack) and get a shot off consistently that I have seen (who would be known by almost everyone on this board) takes about 45 seconds to a minute to do so. That’s over twice as long on average as it takes most to learn to get the same hits with a pack and sticks.

I am not saying that tripods aren’t great- they certainly can be. Just that there limitations, and people that use them hunting often seem to purposely setup and hunt in a way where only those shots will happen.

There is 1 specialty grip I love using. In fact it has features nothing else does. I can't use it on a stock. That is my most used setup especially for killing. Since I believe consistency is going to make me more efficient I have started swapping out equipment so everything is about the same. Same scope, reticle, chassis, trigger, etc.

What grip?

This is the long range forum. If I have to shoot so fast I need to contort my body in an awkward position to use a natural rest instead of setting up on a bipod or tripod because of the time, I'll pass on the shot. I am not good enough to be rushing a long range shot.

Yes and no. Long range is relative. When talking about on demand shots, it probably starts at 250-300 yards. Now people will squeal and squall about that, however when putting people that supposedly are extremely “competent” on cold shots in the field, very few are on demand. We have a week each summer where a group gets together and shoots in the mountains. Part of that is walking up blind to scenarios that are an exact recreation of shots that happened the hunting season prior (including the raccoon of a bear I shot with Ryan this year… grin). @Ryan Avery @PNWGATOR have been to multiple years of it, and @mtnwrunner came this year. People are not nearly as capable as they think they are when they don’t control the situation. After a week of shooting, measuring and learning about 80-90% choose a very different rifle on the last day than they did the first.


Yes, people should know how to use a tripod, bipod, whatever. However, when I find an animal I want to kill, I am not going to miss the opportunity because I couldn’t use a tripod. Examole: bucks in the rut where they are constantly moving, how do you use the tripod on them? Not a theory about how it’s done, I mean how have you dealt with a constantly moving deer in the 200-400 yard range from a tripod? The ones I’ve seen try it ended up just pushing it to the side and shooting off their pack because they could track and adjust quick enough.

Form mentioned that he is fine without bipod, tripod, rear bag, etc out to 1200m. That is extremely good shooting if we are basing it on a 10" vital like RS did for the CBC. Form is in a completely different league compared to 99.9% of hunters. Most hunters need the "crutch" of a bipod/tripod/rear bag. Myself included.

It doesn’t take nearly as much time to learn to shoot well without a bipod/tripod as most believe. That shooting week I mentioned above had almost all shooting the same size ten round groups off a pack as they did off a bipod within a couple days of training/practice. 10-15” targets past 800 yards were getting hit consistently by day three.

As for 10” CBC- no one, and that is no one, is 100% or anything close to 100% on a 10” target, cold on damned first round, in mountainous broken terrain that they’ve never shot in before, at 1,200 yards. Do people do it once? Yes. Twice? Sure. Maybe they’ve done it three or four times in a row. But take that same person and have them shoot one shot a day for 100 days in a row, where every single day is in a new location, in broken mountain terrain and the best shooters alive might be 50-60% on a 10” target at 1,200 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

Text isn’t great for longer form conversations. If it seems I am being argumentative, I’m not. Just trying to discuss more in-depth than “I like”.

 

[Helislacker]

Form is spot on as far as usability in the cold. A while back I attempted to hunt with my MDT ESS at -20 to -30°C (-10 to -20f iirc) because I wanted to use my range toy .223 and didn’t have time to drop it into my CTR stock. This is the average temp for about 8 weeks of the year where I lived and coincides with much of the big game season. Plus, those are the temps where the animals actually move around up here, so if you want to be successful you have to hunt when it’s this cold.
Metal chassis’ are absolutely unusable at these temps even with gloves designed with gels that are specially designed to mitigate the issue of metal contact. Further, the sensation is so akin to touching a flame and absolutely sucks all the heat from your fingers. It’s not just inconvenient, it’s totally unworkable. I want a rifle that I can use from +20 to -20 without having to swap stuff around, retorque, rezero etc. Metal chassis compromise that significantly despite their advantages as far as a range toy/PRS gun goes.

If you live in a warm climate however, where the metal chassis guns aren’t unworkable, you’re probably not mountain hunting/hunting in extreme cold temps anyway, so all of this is irrelevant. That said, no one with any experience in the western Mountain states, western Canada or Alaska who is making miles during the late season is using a metal chassis gun.

 

[Macintosh]

It doesnt take extreme cold to notice the difference. If youre moving, even at 10-20 degrees f—which is half of my hunting season locally—you still put out too much heat to wear thick gloves or mittens. Tracking, as is the normal way to rifle hunt around this area, you spend much of the day with the gun in your hands, at the ready. There is nothing I have found that feels as warm as a wood stock, even fiber and plastic are noticeably colder in the hand. Metal is even worse, you can literally feel the heat sucked out of your fingers.

 

[Castle Rock]

I regularly hunt where it is HOT, metal and black plastic suck in those conditions

 

[dirtytough]

Text isn’t great for longer form conversations. If it seems I am being argumentative, I’m not. Just trying to discuss more in-depth than “I like”.

Cold. I’m not saying metal is the best in the cold. I’m saying I haven’t personally had an issue with a metal chassis.

I don’t carry my rifle by hand. I’m kinda picky so I’ll look a bull/buck over with binos/spotter before I put a scope on it. I never scope something. I don’t shoot targets much in the winter. (Planning on a lot more of it once I get a 223. It won’t be an RSS since I’ll put it in a chassis to keep it consistent.)

Here’s an example of why I say the cold is not an issue. It was cold out. I’m shooting my coyote rifles and trying to get my first AR 10 feeding/ejecting/etc properly. The AR is being a pain. I forgot my normal gloves. I had a pair of black cotton stretch gloves in my truck. So I threw them on. I was there almost 2 hours and my hands were fine. I know two hours isn’t all day. But I handled more metal during that two hours compared to a week long hunt.


Tripods/trekking poles.
I don’t know. I’ve never timed nor practiced that. I will try it though.

I’m trying to wrap my head around it taking twice as long using a tripod as trekking poles if they are strapped to the pack? There are only 2 trekking poles to extend compared to 3 tripod legs. You don’t have to loop handles with a tripod though so it seems like time is a wash?

I’m not saying people should use or shouldn’t use a tripod or bipod. I’m saying my experience so far has taught me I’m personally way steadier using them than not using them.

The buck rutting is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the previous post. Or walking up and spooking something. Basically a dynamic situation with your target moving.

You peak over a ridge and there is your target. It’s 250 yards but moving a lot. Vegetation is too tall to go prone. You setup your sticks/tripod for a sitting shot. You are tracking it and can only see it from the neck down when it stops at 400 yards. There is brush/finger ridge/whatever covering most of it. I roll up on my knees. Now I can see it’s body.

I slide my tripod legs closer together and make the shot. You can do the same with sticks to extend your height. Are most people as steady on sticks without a rear rest as they are on a tripod without a rear rest?

I personally haven’t found a stand-alone rest as steady as a tripod for shots that are sitting height or higher yet. For me an Anvil and tripod is easy compared to shooting sticks or looped trekking poles.

Regards,

 

[Helislacker]

Here’s an example of why I say the cold is not an issue. It was cold out. I’m shooting my coyote rifles and trying to get my first AR 10 feeding/ejecting/etc properly. The AR is being a pain. I forgot my normal gloves. I had a pair of black cotton stretch gloves in my truck. So I threw them on. I was there almost 2 hours and my hands were fine. I know two hours isn’t all day. But I handled more metal during that two hours compared to a week long hunt.

I don’t know how cold it was when this happened, but I know that I would have done significant damage to my hands and skin if I used the same gloves you’re speaking about and handled my metal guns for 2 hours in the average late season temps folks hunt in up here. And I know our temps aren’t much colder than temps in Montana etc. at the same time of year. So it sounds like a lot of this is “cold” means different things to different people. That said, the places that offer goat, sheep, OTC elk (ie. MT, AB, BC, NWT, Alaska) all have a high likelihood of temps down -10f or more during the late season, so a metal rifle is absolutely an issue.

 

[dirtytough]

I don’t know how cold it was when this happened, but I know that I would have done significant damage to my hands and skin if I used the same gloves you’re speaking about and handled my metal guns for 2 hours in the average late season temps folks hunt in up here. And I know our temps aren’t much colder than temps in Montana etc. at the same time of year. So it sounds like a lot of this is “cold” means different things to different people. That said, the places that offer goat, sheep, OTC elk (ie. MT, AB, BC, NWT, Alaska) all have a high likelihood of temps down -10f or more during the late season, so a metal rifle is absolutely an issue.

West Yellowstone is one of the coldest towns in Montana on average. The coldest month is January and the low averages 4*.

 

[Helislacker]

West Yellowstone is one of the coldest towns in Montana on average. The coldest month is January and the low averages 4*.

Fair enough, experiences may vary I guess. That said, I’m curious what the actual temp was on the day.

 

[HuntHarder]

I am not sure why guys take shots at animals from "unusual" positions or hanging off the side of a rock cropping. I guess that is their only shot opportunity, but I chalk that up to either a bad stalk or not enough time left in the field, so you have to take a shot that is not ideal.

PRS vs. Hunting- you still learn quite a bit about controlling your emotions, trigger control and not rushing shots. Also helps you learn to dope wind and overall get more comfortable with weapons. Are the shooting positions the same? No, not all the time. Are they similar? Sure, sometimes. To say PRS does not help a person get better at shooting is false imo.

 

[mtnwrunner]

I am not sure who guys take shots at animals from "unusual" positions or hanging off the side of a rock cropping. I guess that is their only shot opportunity, but I chalk that up to either a bad stalk or not enough time left in the field, so you have to take a shot that is not ideal.

PRS vs. Hunting- you still learn quite a bit about controlling your emotions, trigger control and not rushing shots. Also helps you learn to dope wind and overall get more comfortable with weapons. Are the shooting positions the same? No, not all the time. Are they similar? Sure, sometimes. To say PRS does not help a person get better at shooting is false imo.

"take shots at animals from unusual positions?"
You ever been to Idaho? The only "unusual" position IS prone.

Randy

 

[JohnJohnson]

"take shots at animals from unusual positions?"
You ever been to Idaho? The only "unusual" position IS prone.

Randy

I don't think there are many people debating here about the virtues of chassis vs wood in prone shooting. The discussion seems to be more focused on people who are using flat-bottom chassis with rails for primarily tripod shooting. Versus people who are dropping down and using their packs for fast shots. I don't know if it's relevant but I've spent a fair bit of time in Idaho and also hunted there twice, I agree that prone isn't really an option 95% of the time. But I do think that I'll have a lot of opportunity to use a tripod shooting there now that I have one.

 

[PathFinder]

@Formidilosus we need to get you a eh1tk with a mini chassis to beat up.

No negative comb but it’s so close in all other regards. Really enjoy the ones I have.

Totally agree on the metal chassis. I have one for a game gun, and wouldn’t consider it for hunting, pretty much ever.

View attachment 577435


This is a good topic though.

Oh yea, on chassis…. Rusty screws…. The more screws the more rust.

What did yours weigh with the mini chassis?

 

[Lawnboi]

What did yours weigh with the mini chassis?

If I remember correctly the mini chassis plus UL cheek piece was 37oz, the one without the cheek is 35oz.

I’ll take the mini chassis for the small weight penalty. Especially these tikka versions, they really hold the action snug.

 

[slowelk]

If I remember correctly the mini chassis plus UL cheek piece was 37oz, the one without the cheek is 35oz.

I’ll take the mini chassis for the small weight penalty. Especially these tikka versions, they really hold the action snug.

Seems light. I have two tikka EH1s with the mini chassis, neither have the cheek riser, one is 39oz the other is 40oz. Barrel inlet is for a proof sendero light, so that could be the difference.

 

[Lawnboi]

Seems light. I have two tikka EH1s with the mini chassis, neither have the cheek riser, one is 39oz the other is 40oz. Barrel inlet is for a proof sendero light, so that could be the difference.

I mine are cut for m24 and MTU. Including larger shank diameter.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Fair enough, experiences may vary I guess. That said, I’m curious what the actual temp was on the day.

I'm not sure what the temp was that day since I wasn't there the day dirtytough is talking about, but he lives and hunts year-round in ND so I know for a fact he spends more time in real cold hunting than most people.

One of the weeks I was there night hunting we had around 0*F most nights and lots of wind. We do wear gloves though until a minute or so before we shoot. Pulling mittens or gloves off to shoot is generally really easy.

 

[justin davis]

I have both regular stock rifle and chassis. I like them both. Both have pros and cons like many already listed.

The pros to the chassis are shooting off a tripod and the foldable buttstock.

Regular stocks are great for hunting thou.

I use a metal chassis a lot to hunt coyotes in wintertime. I like using it off a tripod. And by wearing gloves I have no issues with it being cold on the hands