Spotting your shot, most import factors.

[mt terry d]

I'm a novice but am learning.

223 Tikka suppressed in Bravo stock

A couple things that's helping me a lot are magnification around 6 to 8X
and lots of rounds fired. Something about the brain/eye getting used to
keeping the target in sight even though it's moving in the scope and having an idea of the
time it takes for the bullet to hit the target.

 

[43.6N]

Just get a Tikka in .223 and another in whatever flavor you want. Eurooptic has a threaded .223 on sale now.

Here’s the answer. Add a Swfa 3-9. Practice all spring summer. Go hunt a black bear. Stick it in a Rokstock.
Then when you’re about a month out from whatever fall hunt you’re considering, decide if you’d like something bigger or not.

It’s the archery equivalent of shooting at lower poundage. Still plenty lethal. But sometimes you just want to crank those limb bolts even though you know you don’t need it!

 

[nm.otter]

At 9lbs: here’s where I’ve found the limit:
6.5creedmoor in a Rokstock. Also shot it with McMillan MTLR with same results.
- 130gr bullets: YES shots spotted consistently.
- 140 and 147, sometimes yes. But not consistent.

At 7 pounds 15 oz, factory 6.5 CM 140s are barely spottable if I'm perfectly set up on a bench or prone and very mindful during the entire shot (no stress).

Next gun will be a 6mm GT (or possibly .22 GT).

 

[mtnbound]

Ive researched the other threads on this, and cannot quite find a satisfying answer. I'm mostly an archery guy so my apologies if I overlooked something.

I understand spotting your shots in field conditions can be difficult but I believe setting up a rifle that can spot shots has multiple ancillary benefits I.E. remaining on target for follow up shots, keeping eyes on primary target so you dont accidentally shoot the wrong animal on a follow up, potentially seeing the wound placement, and it assumes excellent recoil management so its likely more forgiving to shoot in general, etc.

I want to set up some initial parameters/factors so that the information isnt as subjective.

This is for a hunting rig (assume around 9lbs or less) and we're not always going to be able to shoot with a loaded bipod, prone. Some shots will be off the backpack, tripod, or trekking poles, etc.

Factors:

- Form/Fundamentals (if so, please clarify or provide content on what specific form changes helped you)

-Caliber (whats the maximum caliber you find to be able to spot shots with a 9# suppressed rifle, all other things being dialed in)

- Supression/Braked Supressors ( what is your recommendation on a suppressor for recoil reduction)

- Stock Design (this one really interests me the most) there are very few designs out there with a negative comb and near flat toe line/fore end.

- Something i missed.

Overall, if you were building a hunting rig, in what order would you rank these or what is your current setup that allows you to spot your shots!?

Im going back and fourth on if I should buy a Tikka/Rokstock combo or get a Seekins PH3 so I can shoot like a .223 for practice and switch over to my hunting round with a fairly cheap extra barrel/bolt face.

Shooting off a backpack for me is almost always seated, but prone can happen. Developing a stable rear support using a shooting bag, bino harness, t-poles, tripod, stick, etc, is fundamental regardless of seated or prone.

Shooting off a tripod or t-poles again, mostly seated, which allows me to use my pack for rear support, but any other stable item could be used. Again, a solid rear support, regardless of shooting position, is important to me.

Caliber to spot shots at 9lbs would be a 6.5PRC at about 10 power on the scope.

I dislike brakes, but they work. I only use suppressors, and my current ones are US OG and OG65.

The idea behind the Rokstok is good, and I like it, but I shoot a 6CM or 22 CM, so the recoil is minimal already. I shoot my HNT 26 chassis just as well as the RS. IMO, shooting smaller cartridges reduces the need for specially designed stocks beyond flat forend and toe areas. That being said, if a stock does not fit or feel right to the shooter, then stock design plays a bigger role. If shooting a heavy-recoiling cartridge, the stock design is essential.

Ranking importance for me to spot my shots: Caliber, Optic Power setting, Shooting Position, type of Support used for the position, and Stock Design.

I prefer to have a separate training rifle with the same optic as my hunting rifle.

 

[RockAndSage]

-Not reloading to the limits of the case. I can feel the +65kpsi loads, and it makes staying on target much harder. Similar to hitting a baseball outside of the sweet spot. It just feels wrong.

Separate but related...I'm a bit new to rifle reloading, but I've had something in mind lately that I can't shake, yet haven't dove into much:

What would happen for barrel life and shootability, if you took an overbore cartridge (or any larger cartridge, actually), and just downloaded it for lower pressures but sufficient impact velocity?

Instead of things like AIs and Weatherby casings being used for max velocity...what would happen for barrel life and shootability if you just downloaded for more optimal pressure for the goal?

I know there's issues with powder fill and accuracy, but what about just selecting a good-fill powder for downloaded pressures? Is this even possible?

 

[Macintosh]

No chance in hell.

Stock “fit” is the most over thought nonsense in the last 5-10 years. Chassis have made this a shit show.

Stock geometry is what you’re after. Stock fit is minor.

IF youre average sized. If not, it’s nowhere near as critical as a shotgun, but certainly can be an issue. Probably not primary, but definitely hurts trying to contort yourself into a stock thats wildly too short/long/high/low, etc. But agree its rarely even in the conversation with geometry and getting the scope height and eye relief right.

 

[43.6N]

I would prioritize spotting a shot as one of the single highest yielding factors for a mountain hunter. To the exclusion of almost anything else. Probably only second to reliability of the system.

I would carry a heavier rifle in order to be able to spot a shot.
I would cut and modify a factory stock if it made spotting shots easier.
I would go down in caliber in order to spot shots.

Especially if solo. Shooting an animal, and then losing track of it because of the recoil has happened to me. The animal was dead, but finding it almost didn’t happen. All because I thought I needed a high magnification and high recoiling setup in an expensive stock with poor foundational ergonomics.

After that experience, I took a tikka stock and chopped it and epoxied it until I got the following result:
Notice how similar it ended up looking compared to the Rokstock:

 

[43.6N]

Separate but related...I'm a bit new to rifle reloading, but I've had something in mind lately that I can't shake, yet haven't dove into much:

What would happen for barrel life and shootability, if you took an overbore cartridge (or any larger cartridge, actually), and just downloaded it for lower pressures but sufficient impact velocity?

Instead of things like AIs and Weatherby casings being used for max velocity...what would happen for barrel life and shootability if you just downloaded for more optimal pressure for the goal?

I know there's issues with powder fill and accuracy, but what about just selecting a good-fill powder for downloaded pressures? Is this even possible?

Yes possible and doable.
Hodgedon has a section in their manual with “reduced recoil loads” that are exactly what you describe.

 

[Antares]

Stock sucks, bolt binds, trigger is absolute junk, balances like crap with long barrel and long suppressor.

Me and my .308 Montana feel personally attacked....

You're not wrong though.

 

[General RE LEE]

Separate but related...I'm a bit new to rifle reloading, but I've had something in mind lately that I can't shake, yet haven't dove into much:

What would happen for barrel life and shootability, if you took an overbore cartridge (or any larger cartridge, actually), and just downloaded it for lower pressures but sufficient impact velocity?

Instead of things like AIs and Weatherby casings being used for max velocity...what would happen for barrel life and shootability if you just downloaded for more optimal pressure for the goal?

I know there's issues with powder fill and accuracy, but what about just selecting a good-fill powder for downloaded pressures? Is this even possible?

You might as well just buy another cartridge if you’re going to do that. Instead of a 6.5 PRC just get a 6.5 Creedmoor, instead of a 7 Mag get a 7-08, instead of a 6 Creedmoor get a 6 GT and so on.

 

[43.6N]

You might as well just buy another cartridge if you’re going to do that. Instead of a 6.5 PRC just get a 6.5 Creedmoor, instead of a 7 Mag get a 7-08, instead of a 6 Creedmoor get a 6 GT and so on.

I agree. Good powders are good in the case dimensions they excel at. H4350 in a Creedmoor case at creedmoor pressures is a good example. Very repeatable and reliable. But try and fit it into a larger or smaller case, and funny things can happen.
Using a reduced recoil load will lower pressure. But even with good case fill, the powder may react differently. No guaranty of consistent ignition, or of being temperature stable.

That doesn’t mean it’s not possible, but that it will take some vetting to get a load you’re happy with.

And long term, probably better to just pick a known case with a known performance window for safe pressures.

Anyway, I feel like I’m getting off into the weeds.
Back to OPs recoil question

 

[RockAndSage]

I agree. Good powders are good in the case dimensions they excel at. H4350 in a Creedmoor case at creedmoor pressures is a good example. Very repeatable and reliable. But try and fit it into a larger or smaller case, and funny things can happen.
Using a reduced recoil load will lower pressure. But even with good case fill, the powder may react differently. No guaranty of consistent ignition, or of being temperature stable.

That doesn’t mean it’s not possible, but that it will take some vetting to get a load you’re happy with.

And long term, probably better to just pick a known case with a known performance window for safe pressures.

Anyway, I feel like I’m getting off into the weeds.
Back to OPs recoil question

Good, interesting info, thank you.

 

[hereinaz]

Separate but related...I'm a bit new to rifle reloading, but I've had something in mind lately that I can't shake, yet haven't dove into much:

What would happen for barrel life and shootability, if you took an overbore cartridge (or any larger cartridge, actually), and just downloaded it for lower pressures but sufficient impact velocity?

Instead of things like AIs and Weatherby casings being used for max velocity...what would happen for barrel life and shootability if you just downloaded for more optimal pressure for the goal?

I know there's issues with powder fill and accuracy, but what about just selecting a good-fill powder for downloaded pressures? Is this even possible?

Best to size the case as short and fat as possible to get the result you want.

Case fill with a slower powder can work, but not optimal.

Increases barrel life with less powder, heat, and unburned kernels. How much I don’t know.

 

[hereinaz]

IF youre average sized. If not, it’s nowhere near as critical as a shotgun, but certainly can be an issue. Probably not primary, but definitely hurts trying to contort yourself into a stock thats wildly too short/long/high/low, etc. But agree its rarely even in the conversation with geometry and getting the scope height and eye relief right.

Really?

Having sized and cut stocks for shooters, I disagree. Large and small shooters suffer. Women need a smaller stock.

Edited to add: @mxgsfmdpx we disagree but probably in degrees.

I say stock fit is important, though not relevant to the majority of average sized humans.

If a stock is too short or too long, it is a problem for people on the extremes like kids and women. And, some small/large men.

For most of us, it is stock geometry.

 

[hereinaz]

I dont want to sound patronizing but isnt this the same thing as saying to get the right stock?

You asked to expand on the points for choosing the right stock. That’s what I was trying to answer.

Certainly some of the same stuff.