Spotting your shot, most import factors.

[Alaska Bowman]

Ive researched the other threads on this, and cannot quite find a satisfying answer. I'm mostly an archery guy so my apologies if I overlooked something.

I understand spotting your shots in field conditions can be difficult but I believe setting up a rifle that can spot shots has multiple ancillary benefits I.E. remaining on target for follow up shots, keeping eyes on primary target so you dont accidentally shoot the wrong animal on a follow up, potentially seeing the wound placement, and it assumes excellent recoil management so its likely more forgiving to shoot in general, etc.

I want to set up some initial parameters/factors so that the information isnt as subjective.

This is for a hunting rig (assume around 9lbs or less) and we're not always going to be able to shoot with a loaded bipod, prone. Some shots will be off the backpack, tripod, or trekking poles, etc.

Factors:

- Form/Fundamentals (if so, please clarify or provide content on what specific form changes helped you)

-Caliber (whats the maximum caliber you find to be able to spot shots with a 9# suppressed rifle, all other things being dialed in)

- Supression/Braked Supressors ( what is your recommendation on a suppressor for recoil reduction)

- Stock Design (this one really interests me the most) there are very few designs out there with a negative comb and near flat toe line/fore end.

- Something i missed.

Overall, if you were building a hunting rig, in what order would you rank these or what is your current setup that allows you to spot your shots!?

Im going back and fourth on if I should buy a Tikka/Rokstock combo or get a Seekins PH3 so I can shoot like a .223 for practice and switch over to my hunting round with a fairly cheap extra barrel/bolt face.

 

[hereinaz]

#1 fundamentals/practice
#2 proper rifle set up/fit
#3 6mm or .22 cal
#4 suppressor
#5 support gear (bags, bipod, tripod, pack, etc.
#6 stock style (I can shoot a factory Tikka stock with vertical grip just as well as others, but it is harder to build position automatically/easily)

Just get a Tikka in .223 and another in whatever flavor you want. Eurooptic has a threaded .223 on sale now.

I have written a lot about these topics. Check out some of the long range tips in that section. I need to get back to it.

 

[Alaska Bowman]

#1 fundamentals/practice
#2 proper rifle set up/fit
#3 6mm or .22 cal
#4 suppressor
#5 support gear (bags, bipod, tripod, pack, etc.
#6 stock style (I can shoot a factory Tikka stock with vertical grip just as well as others, but it is harder to build position automatically/easily)

Just get a Tikka in .223 and another in whatever flavor you want. Eurooptic has a threaded .223 on sale now.

I have written a lot about these topics. Check out some of the long range tips in that section. I need to get back to it.

I've read some of your responses on this, and have got a lot of information from those. Can you expand/point to thread on priper rifle setup/fit?

 

[Soj51hopeful]

What animals are you going to be hunting with this rifle?

 

[Alaska Bowman]

What animals are you going to be hunting with this rifle?

Anything from Antelope to Elk but I dont want to derail this thread based in caliber efficacy... thats thoroughly covered and debated on here.

 

[Lawnboi]

Not blinking

 

[Soj51hopeful]

Anything from Antelope to Elk but I dont want to derail this thread based in caliber efficacy... thats thoroughly covered and debated on here.

I agree it’s been covered and beaten down, but assuming you are from Alaska there are some critters that you could hunt that you might want to go heavier caliber. Elk and antelope are not what I’m getting at so no need for digression I guess.

 

[hereinaz]

I've read some of your responses on this, and have got a lot of information from those. Can you expand/point to thread on priper rifle setup/fit?

1. butt stock length (shorter so that you can put the rifle on collarbone closer to centerline of body for recoil management)
2. grip to trigger/vertical grip (put your finger and hand in neutral position for clean press)
3. comb straight or neg (my face doesn't work well with Rokstock unless I have high rings)
4. toe more flat than typical (some angle helps with long range adjustment of bag)
5. grip size (relaxed hand)
6. flatish forend (for resting on bags and not rolling)

1. scope height (I prefer higher because it improves the angle your neck has to tilt forward, reducing strain, prone especially. The taller you are the longer your neck is and higher rings should be)
2. scope eyebox set up so that prone is at one end of the eye box and standing is on the other end

 

[Soj51hopeful]

Only thing I would add is to not always zoom the scope to full power when taking the shot. Learn to leave plenty of field of view.

 

[Alaska Bowman]

1. butt stock length (shorter so that you can put the rifle on collarbone closer to centerline of body for recoil management)
2. grip to trigger/vertical grip (put your finger and hand in neutral position for clean press)
3. comb straight or neg (my face doesn't work well with Rokstock unless I have high rings)
4. toe more flat than typical (some angle helps with long range adjustment of bag)
5. grip size (relaxed hand)
6. flatish forend (for resting on bags and not rolling)

1. scope height (I prefer higher because it improves the angle your neck has to tilt forward, reducing strain, prone especially. The taller you are the longer your neck is and higher rings should be)
2. scope eyebox set up so that prone is at one end of the eye box and standing is on the other end

I dont want to sound patronizing but isnt this the same thing as saying to get the right stock?

 

[ElPollo]

Good info being presented here. This comes back to equipment, shooting fundamentals and position building and optics. Each one can be a limiting factor.

Once you get the equipment side worked out, it’s about training to build stable positions quickly, train yourself to perform with the minimum magnification needed, and execute quickly. For me, this journey started with moving to smaller calibers and spending more time putting rounds down the gun, learning that 6x was good for just about any range I am likely to shoot at something with hair, and then learning to get a front and rear rest setup quickly. I generally use a bag attached to my pack with my bino harness in the rear for prone or a pair of hiking sticks or a long Spartan bipod with the pack against my body for a rear rest when kneeling or seated.

The stock design is an issue and can be big or small depending on how much recoil you’re dealing with. But unless you’re dealing with extremes, the effect of the stock is relatively small. That said, the flat toe and forearm of the RokStok does really help minimize muzzle rise when shooting off a rest. I honestly think that is more important than the negative comb. I also think the grip on the RokStok is one of the best designs for field shooting.

 

[bpitcher]

Scope magnification is a huge factor in my opinion.

I recently experimented with this on a hunt. At 8-10x I was almost immediately back on target and observing the animals reaction but had a little trouble spotting the impacts themselves. For the last animal, I switched to 6x. Observed the impact and results perfectly.

These shots were between 240 and 310 yards with a 9.25lb 6 CM in a Rokstok.

Distance can obviously decrease or improve your observations as well.

 

[Thegman]

I dont want to sound patronizing but isnt this the same thing as saying to get the right stock?

No, it isn't. Saying "get the right stock" wouldn't be helpful at all.

He's taking the time to give you information that's helpful in "getting the right stock".

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Only thing I would add is to not always zoom the scope to full power when taking the shot. Learn to leave plenty of field of view.

This caused 4 missed opportunities in the last 7 days with me as the spotter/wind caller.

 

[Alaska Bowman]

No, it isn't. Saying "get the right stock" wouldn't be helpful at all.

He's taking the time to give you information that's helpful in "getting the right stock".

Right, but stock style was listed at the bottom of his original response so im clarifying if he means stock fit is more important than the overall design of the stock.

 

[longrangelead]

Ive researched the other threads on this, and cannot quite find a satisfying answer. I'm mostly an archery guy so my apologies if I overlooked something.

I understand spotting your shots in field conditions can be difficult but I believe setting up a rifle that can spot shots has multiple ancillary benefits I.E. remaining on target for follow up shots, keeping eyes on primary target so you dont accidentally shoot the wrong animal on a follow up, potentially seeing the wound placement, and it assumes excellent recoil management so its likely more forgiving to shoot in general, etc.

I want to set up some initial parameters/factors so that the information isnt as subjective.

This is for a hunting rig (assume around 9lbs or less) and we're not always going to be able to shoot with a loaded bipod, prone. Some shots will be off the backpack, tripod, or trekking poles, etc.

Factors:

- Form/Fundamentals (if so, please clarify or provide content on what specific form changes helped you)

-Caliber (whats the maximum caliber you find to be able to spot shots with a 9# suppressed rifle, all other things being dialed in)

- Supression/Braked Supressors ( what is your recommendation on a suppressor for recoil reduction)

- Stock Design (this one really interests me the most) there are very few designs out there with a negative comb and near flat toe line/fore end.

- Something i missed.

Overall, if you were building a hunting rig, in what order would you rank these or what is your current setup that allows you to spot your shots!?

Im going back and fourth on if I should buy a Tikka/Rokstock combo or get a Seekins PH3 so I can shoot like a .223 for practice and switch over to my hunting round with a fairly cheap extra

personally, I want the most effective bullet for my purpose with the least amount of recoil to manage.

The less recoil I have to manage, the more energy I can spend on other things in that moment.

A suppressed 6.5PRC is about as much recoil as I care to manage now, less preferably.

I hunted with a 6.5 Creed/130 ELDM this fall and it's nice.

The stock design has everything to do with recoil management and the energy you spend counteracting it.

The Rokstock is designed to help limit recoil to a mostly straight back motion. Until you shoot a Rokstok a bunch and then go back to a traditional stock, you don't realize how much effort is spent controlling muzzle rise just from the butt driving back and down due to stock shape.

Quick drop, stock design, small caliber/cartridge-less recoil, etc. is all a means to an end for me.

I'm more effective with less effort.

nobody ever gets on Rokslide and asks "how do I make my elk hunt harder?"

same with rifles, nobody asks "how can I be less effective while working harder at it?"

 

[43.6N]

At 9lbs: here’s where I’ve found the limit:
6.5creedmoor in a Rokstock. Also shot it with McMillan MTLR with same results.
- 130gr bullets: YES shots spotted consistently.
- 140 and 147, sometimes yes. But not consistent.

At 12lbs: 6.5prc in a KRG bravo. 147eldm.
-Without suppressor: No.
-with suppressor: Yes

Factors:
-Scope zoom: 8x scope. 10x is hard but doable. 8x is consistent for spotting shots. 6x is easy.
-Suppressor. Helps with balance. Helps slow recoil impulse.
-Not reloading to the limits of the case. I can feel the +65kpsi loads, and it makes staying on target much harder. Similar to hitting a baseball outside of the sweet spot. It just feels wrong.
-Grip. Getting thumb in line with recoil impulse.
-Slow bullets (relative) make it easier. Fast bullets make it harder. 2700-2800 much easier to get back to area of interest. 3000+ and the bullet is already at the target by the time you’re done riding out the recoil swell.

 

[Macintosh]

Technique is probably #1. Look up natural point of aim or NPOA.

Rather than focus on cartridge or caliber, it seems better to focus on recoil energy. 15-16 ft/lb is about as much as I can handle without losing my target at my average shooting ranges and positions.

Stock design is huge. High butt and negative comb create a straight line recoil impulse (ie no muzzle rise) and is the “must have” in this regard imo. The straight fe and toe is for riding a bag/rest and only comes into play if you are using a bag or rest. Obviously that is far more important if that is normal for how and where you hunt, although it wont hurt anything else, at least the way I use a rear bag. Having stock and scope fit you well enough that you fit into it naturally without forcing a contorted position is also important imo, and also with scope height correct for the stock so its easy/natural to get into in a repeatable position.

Using minimum required magnification is another biggie. A forgiving eyebox on your scope is also really helpful.

Imo, at least with the suppressors Ive used, the benefit is there but its as much around the muzzle blast and concussion as it is the recoil. A brake helps, but Id chew my own thumbs off before I put a brake on a rifle.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I was able to see the shot impact, the animals reaction as I racked another round, tracked his movement of roughly 15 yards after hit, identified the tree he collapsed under, and then watched 3 other deer come check on him all through the scope before I broke position.

This example is on coues deer in thick terrain where they are very difficult to see. They also never really ever stop moving so you need to get on the gun quick if you want a kill.

Shooting position and where the deer was shot (black arrow). 543 yards, across a steep canyon, switching wind with updraft, quartering away shot.





Shot entrance and exit…





The most important factors with making shots like this and “spotting shots” in no particular order for me…

1. Go shoot in the mountains weekly.
2. Go shoot some more.
3. Shoot and take field notes. Write things down, we forget shit easily, especially misses followed by hits. We only remember the hits and think we are good.
4. Learn to read and call wind.
5. Fast 6mms and 22s have the highest hit rates when shooting in western mountain terrain/conditions.
6. Stock geometry makes a difference for field shoot-ability.
7.Suppressors for a few reasons but they help the shooter/spotter comms as the biggest source of aid.
8. Use guns and scopes that work. Reticle design is key.
9. You don’t need a 5lb “sheep gun” to kill animals. I just shot a guys Kimber mountain ascent in 6.5 creed shooting 143 ELDXs. Was ATROCIOUS to shoot. Stock sucks, bolt binds, trigger is absolute junk, balances like crap with long barrel and long suppressor. Spoiler alert. He missed two shots under 400 yards with that gun. Terrible fundamentals on top of shit gear. Got back to camp and he checked his zero with Vortex Viper and Talley UL rings.



10. Anything “bigger” than 8-9lbs 6.5 PRC shooting heavy for caliber bullets is where we see rodeos all the damn time.
11. Anything under 7lbs all in we see rodeos in 6.5 CM and above. Like clockwork.

I think my list will get to number 50 so I’m just gonna stop there.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Right, but stock style was listed at the bottom of his original response so im clarifying if he means stock fit is more important than the overall design of the stock.

No chance in hell.

Stock “fit” is the most over thought nonsense in the last 5-10 years. Chassis have made this a shit show.

Stock geometry is what you’re after. Stock fit is minor.