south dakota outfitters

[KurtR]

I mean, but has he ever hunted unit 39 in Idaho though?

I always use unit 39 out here as my measurement tool for pressure, which I will admit probably skews my view on pressure a little. 13,000 people in one unit is a bit much though


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Well the one and only elk I have killed was in 39. There is no comparison in pressure. My brothers friend who is from there who he hunts with all the time told us there would be lots of people. I think there were a couple other guys we met out hunting 5 or 6 trucks at the trail head and some camping on the way there. He was like I told you guys it’s bad up here we laughed and said if this is pressure you need to see what deer season back home looks like.

 

[JBWinter]

I wanted to go back and look at some of the data that SD put out in the last year to help paint the picture of what is going on archery wise. I did that last night and was going to put some useful numbers out there.

NR archery tags sold increased from 2840 tags sold in 2014 to 5851 in 2021. Thats more than doubled. NR make up about 20% of all archery tags sold in the last year. Harvest on mule deer bucks increased from 562 between R and NR in 2014 to 1112 in 2021. Mule deer does went from 83 in 2014 to 163 in 2021. Harvest success hovers around 25% give or take. Looking at just 2021 because that is the only year with data available, Residents harvest 559 Mulie Bucks. NR harvested 525 mulie bucks. As for Mulie does, residents harvested 75 which was the same as NR. For both whitetail and mulie, non residents make up 23% of total harvest and only account for 16% of total archery tags sold. Of the 525 NR mulie bucks harvested, 293 of those came from a 4 county area in the NW part of the state. In that same area Residents harvest 122 Mulie bucks via archery. In that same area total Rifle harvest of mulie bucks was 952 including both R and NR. I could not find the stats on how many of that number were NR harvest but its a fair portion. In any case 22% of total mule deer harvest both rifle and archery is taken by NR archers in that small area. That is disproportionate to any where else in the country. All of that data puts together a picture based on harvest stats etc., that the pressure on mule deer via NR archery is on par with that of residents archers, and makes up an extremely large portion of total harvest. No where else allows that kind of pressure on a population. That increasing pressure and skewed harvest on a population that has been struggling due to weather and disease is major cause for concern.

 

[WCB]

I wanted to go back and look at some of the data that SD put out in the last year to help paint the picture of what is going on archery wise. I did that last night and was going to put some useful numbers out there.

NR archery tags sold increased from 2840 tags sold in 2014 to 5851 in 2021. Thats more than doubled. NR make up about 20% of all archery tags sold in the last year. Harvest on mule deer bucks increased from 562 between R and NR in 2014 to 1112 in 2021. Mule deer does went from 83 in 2014 to 163 in 2021. Harvest success hovers around 25% give or take. Looking at just 2021 because that is the only year with data available, Residents harvest 559 Mulie Bucks. NR harvested 525 mulie bucks. As for Mulie does, residents harvested 75 which was the same as NR. For both whitetail and mulie, non residents make up 23% of total harvest and only account for 16% of total archery tags sold. Of the 525 NR mulie bucks harvested, 293 of those came from a 4 county area in the NW part of the state. In that same area Residents harvest 122 Mulie bucks via archery. In that same area total Rifle harvest of mulie bucks was 952 including both R and NR. I could not find the stats on how many of that number were NR harvest but its a fair portion. In any case 22% of total mule deer harvest both rifle and archery is taken by NR archers in that small area. That is disproportionate to any where else in the country. All of that data puts together a picture based on harvest stats etc., that the pressure on mule deer via NR archery is on par with that of residents archers, and makes up an extremely large portion of total harvest. No where else allows that kind of pressure on a population. That increasing pressure and skewed harvest on a population that has been struggling due to weather and disease is major cause for concern.

For rifle in the 6 major areas in the NW corner 35A, 35C, 15A, 53A. 35L, 53C rifle mule deer buck harvest was 1067. Whitetail Buck was 1193. Total resident tags 1775 total no res 156 or about 8%. If every NR harvest a buck out of the total it would be around 7% of the total harvest of bucks. If every NR harvested JUST MD bucks it would be 14% of the total MD bucks harvest. We know that is not that case as I myself know 6 guys that shot WT bucks in those units as NRs.

Is the measurement that if NRs are X % of the tags they have to only shoot X amount of a select section of animals? If you cut NR tags down to 1% of the tags sold but they kill 2% of that selected group tags now have to be cut?

In my opinion...more Whitetail tags have to be given out in most areas out west and less Mule Deer tags. Places like MT and even SD with the "Any Buck" or "any deer" tags need to make people choose. You hear about it all the time Resident or NR "I was looking for a big whitetail but season was ending so I shot thie small Mule Deer buck..." And I will argue till the cows come home that it is in no greater proportion NRs over Residents or Vice Versa. But residents need to understand that they are contributing to the issue as are NRs. If SD made a major effort to cut tags in a meaning full amount or limit residents to only being able to apply for 1 buck tag a year I would believe them a little bit more when they say it is for population management or for their own resident opportunity.

 

[Fatcamp]

For rifle in the 6 major areas in the NW corner 35A, 35C, 15A, 53A. 35L, 53C rifle mule deer buck harvest was 1067. Whitetail Buck was 1193. Total resident tags 1775 total no res 156 or about 8%. If every NR harvest a buck out of the total it would be around 7% of the total harvest of bucks. If every NR harvested JUST MD bucks it would be 14% of the total MD bucks harvest. We know that is not that case as I myself know 6 guys that shot WT bucks in those units as NRs.

Is the measurement that if NRs are X % of the tags they have to only shoot X amount of a select section of animals? If you cut NR tags down to 1% of the tags sold but they kill 2% of that selected group tags now have to be cut?

In my opinion...more Whitetail tags have to be given out in most areas out west and less Mule Deer tags. Places like MT and even SD with the "Any Buck" or "any deer" tags need to make people choose. You hear about it all the time Resident or NR "I was looking for a big whitetail but season was ending so I shot thie small Mule Deer buck..." And I will argue till the cows come home that it is in no greater proportion NRs over Residents or Vice Versa. But residents need to understand that they are contributing to the issue as are NRs. If SD made a major effort to cut tags in a meaning full amount or limit residents to only being able to apply for 1 buck tag a year I would believe them a little bit more when they say it is for population management or for their own resident opportunity.

Why anyone who wanted to shoot a big whitetail would wait to draw an any deer tag is beyond me. An any whitetail tag takes far less points no matter the unit in South Dakota.

 

[Lytro]

For rifle in the 6 major areas in the NW corner 35A, 35C, 15A, 53A. 35L, 53C rifle mule deer buck harvest was 1067. Whitetail Buck was 1193. Total resident tags 1775 total no res 156 or about 8%. If every NR harvest a buck out of the total it would be around 7% of the total harvest of bucks. If every NR harvested JUST MD bucks it would be 14% of the total MD bucks harvest. We know that is not that case as I myself know 6 guys that shot WT bucks in those units as NRs.

Is the measurement that if NRs are X % of the tags they have to only shoot X amount of a select section of animals? If you cut NR tags down to 1% of the tags sold but they kill 2% of that selected group tags now have to be cut?

In my opinion...more Whitetail tags have to be given out in most areas out west and less Mule Deer tags. Places like MT and even SD with the "Any Buck" or "any deer" tags need to make people choose. You hear about it all the time Resident or NR "I was looking for a big whitetail but season was ending so I shot thie small Mule Deer buck..." And I will argue till the cows come home that it is in no greater proportion NRs over Residents or Vice Versa. But residents need to understand that they are contributing to the issue as are NRs. If SD made a major effort to cut tags in a meaning full amount or limit residents to only being able to apply for 1 buck tag a year I would believe them a little bit more when they say it is for population management or for their own resident opportunity.

Rifle seasons are capped tags with a predetermined quota. That's not the issue. There certainly is an issue with unlimited archery tags. Especially when the NR mule deer harvest outnumbered the resident harvest nearly 5:1. Take a drive around in the NW corner of the state in October and the amount of NR pressure is overwhelming. The hunting is terrible and I don't know how any NR's return to hunt public land here.

SD has been a phenomenal state for opportunity, but it could truly be a good state for mule deer hunting with the proper management practices in place. The NR cap is a step in the right direction, and we should see more positive changes in the coming years that will effect both NR and resident hunters. I understand NR's feel like they're getting treated unfairly with the most recent change, but the same people who advocated for that change are also advocating change to the resident tags and rifle harvest quotas.

 

[WCB]

Why anyone who wanted to shoot a big whitetail would wait to draw an any deer tag is beyond me. An any whitetail tag takes far less points no matter the unit in South Dakota.

Don't ask me....guy I used to work with a few years ago went out with his buddies and did just that. Had any deer tags and shot 3 120ish whitetails first 2 days of season. Then found a landowner that let them hunt for either or and like the next two years did the same thing with West River Special Buck tags that were valid for either or species wise. Baffling in my mind. But I also guided in MT where tags were good for either or and a lot of guys from East of the Mississippi were hell bent on killing 130" Whitetails over some 160"+ MD bucks I showed them.

Rifle seasons are capped tags with a predetermined quota. That's not the issue. There certainly is an issue with unlimited archery tags. Especially when the NR mule deer harvest outnumbered the resident harvest nearly 5:1. Take a drive around in the NW corner of the state in October and the amount of NR pressure is overwhelming. The hunting is terrible and I don't know how any NR's return to hunt public land here.

SD has been a phenomenal state for opportunity, but it could truly be a good state for mule deer hunting with the proper management practices in place. The NR cap is a step in the right direction, and we should see more positive changes in the coming years that will effect both NR and resident hunters. I understand NR's feel like they're getting treated unfairly with the most recent change, but the same people who advocated for that change are also advocating change to the resident tags and rifle harvest quotas.

I've hunted out there a bunch in Oct. and late Sept for Pronghorn. Pronghorn rut I agree is absolutely a mad house. Deer hunting yes there are select areas that can be busy but overall I have never had an issue getting away from people and have hunted a section of the Natl Forest up there where in a solid week single digits of vehicles have gone by and from observation 1 or 2 other hunters even hunted it. This is over multiple years and I am pretty far on the sliding scale of pressure where I don't like seeing a dust cloud form a vehicle within miles of me.

I spoke with one of the groups that advocated against the Sept 1 opener for NRs a few years ago. The leader of that organization was spouting B.S. about crowding in the very area this topic is mainly about. I can tell you from that convo it was zero % about pressure on the animals and 100% anti NR. I asked if he had even step foot in the area in Sept. of course he didn't answer that...not that he could have went far since he was about 350lbs.

Again I agree changes are needed out west but the vast majority of the arguments have zero to do with pressure on animals and more about resident opportunity (or perceived opportunity). And the second the conversation turns to residents helping flip the bill or dial back their pressure lips get shut quickly. Short of funny that the changes that effect Residents doesn't seem to be a high priority with the "dire" situation the animals are in according to them.

 

[Lytro]

Don't ask me....guy I used to work with a few years ago went out with his buddies and did just that. Had any deer tags and shot 3 120ish whitetails first 2 days of season. Then found a landowner that let them hunt for either or and like the next two years did the same thing with West River Special Buck tags that were valid for either or species wise. Baffling in my mind. But I also guided in MT where tags were good for either or and a lot of guys from East of the Mississippi were hell bent on killing 130" Whitetails over some 160"+ MD bucks I showed them.

I've hunted out there a bunch in Oct. and late Sept for Pronghorn. Pronghorn rut I agree is absolutely a mad house. Deer hunting yes there are select areas that can be busy but overall I have never had an issue getting away from people and have hunted a section of the Natl Forest up there where in a solid week single digits of vehicles have gone by and from observation 1 or 2 other hunters even hunted it. This is over multiple years and I am pretty far on the sliding scale of pressure where I don't like seeing a dust cloud form a vehicle within miles of me.

I spoke with one of the groups that advocated against the Sept 1 opener for NRs a few years ago. The leader of that organization was spouting B.S. about crowding in the very area this topic is mainly about. I can tell you from that convo it was zero % about pressure on the animals and 100% anti NR. I asked if he had even step foot in the area in Sept. of course he didn't answer that...not that he could have went far since he was about 350lbs.

Again I agree changes are needed out west but the vast majority of the arguments have zero to do with pressure on animals and more about resident opportunity (or perceived opportunity). And the second the conversation turns to residents helping flip the bill or dial back their pressure lips get shut quickly. Short of funny that the changes that effect Residents doesn't seem to be a high priority with the "dire" situation the animals are in according to them.

The national forest you’re speaking of is actually limited entry for archery and you can only hunt it after drawing an access permit. May have been why you barely saw anyone.

I think the 1 Sep resident opener is a cool benefit that residents get. It really has nothing to do with conservation, but it does ease a lot of pressure while there are a lot of pronghorn hunters out at the same time.

I really don’t think the NR archery tag reduction has that much to do with opportunity for residents like you’re saying. A lot of residents in that area aren’t hunting public after September (unless their vehicles are oddly registered in MN or WI). Residents aren’t hunting for a week and settling on killing any muley they can get a shot on for the sake of filling a tag and killing a mule deer. The NR harvest certainly isn’t 5x because they’re more effective hunters, and I’ve never seen a resident stalking a fork muley that’s feeding in the ditch of a paved highway.

I personally would love to see a 100% archery draw that mirrors the rifle draw. I don’t see any other way to effectively manage populations.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Rifle seasons are capped tags with a predetermined quota. That's not the issue. There certainly is an issue with unlimited archery tags. Especially when the NR mule deer harvest outnumbered the resident harvest nearly 5:1. Take a drive around in the NW corner of the state in October and the amount of NR pressure is overwhelming. The hunting is terrible and I don't know how any NR's return to hunt public land here.

SD has been a phenomenal state for opportunity, but it could truly be a good state for mule deer hunting with the proper management practices in place. The NR cap is a step in the right direction, and we should see more positive changes in the coming years that will effect both NR and resident hunters. I understand NR's feel like they're getting treated unfairly with the most recent change, but the same people who advocated for that change are also advocating change to the resident tags and rifle harvest quotas.

The numbers posted above show that NR to R mule deer archery harvest is not 5:1 it was like 1.5:1 at best and is it not reasonable to expect that somebody paying 10x the amount of money for a tag might hunt harder than a resident


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[sodaksooner]

Im holding my 9 West river points this year. Waiting on my brother to build enough that we can hunt together (He moved from Rapid to Wisc a few years ago). Thankfully we still have private to hunt in all the areas mentioned... That said, the public and walk in can be really good. As a former resident that has long been a non resident, I think the GFP is taking steps in the right direction.

Shoot, even 30+ years ago we always wanted the any deer tag, but mostly drew whitetails. Saw the biggest mulie buck I had seen in my life to that point and couldn't shoot him as I had a whitetail tag. That said, missed the biggest whitetail buck I had seen to that point in my life in the same river bottom about an hour later....

 

[Lytro]

The numbers posted above show that NR to R mule deer archery harvest is not 5:1 it was like 1.5:1 at best and is it not reasonable to expect that somebody paying 10x the amount of money for a tag might hunt harder than a resident


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Hunting with low enough standards to kill any antlered mule deer instead of eating a tag doesn't equate to "hunting harder". I don't judge people that happily shoot anything for the sake of getting meat, but subsistence hunters don't pay 10x for NR tags. It's hard to argue the change when the demographic that is bleeding the resource is the demographic that is now being limited.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Hunting with low enough standards to kill any antlered mule deer instead of eating a tag doesn't equate to "hunting harder". I don't judge people that happily shoot anything for the sake of getting meat, but subsistence hunters don't pay 10x for NR tags. It's hard to argue the change when the demographic that is bleeding the resource is the demographic that is now being limited.

You’re misunderstanding, in the breakdown posted above the numbers bear out that an almost equal number of statewide archery tags are sold to Residents vs NonRes. Is it not unlikely that most residents might go out for a weekend, maybe 2, never leave their truck unless they see a buck they want vs a nonresident who comes out for 7-10 days and puts on the boot miles. Maybe that explains the 1.5:1 ratio of nonresident kills vs resident.

I really don’t have a dog in the fight. Maybe in a couple of years I will try to get out there and bow hunt but it just isn’t something I really want to do right now.

I do think it is ridiculous that now NR bowhunters will have to draw a tag, and still won’t be able to hunt the full season. Seems to me with the new cap on NR bowhunters maybe they should let them hunt from the opener.

 

[JBWinter]

Don't ask me....guy I used to work with a few years ago went out with his buddies and did just that. Had any deer tags and shot 3 120ish whitetails first 2 days of season. Then found a landowner that let them hunt for either or and like the next two years did the same thing with West River Special Buck tags that were valid for either or species wise. Baffling in my mind. But I also guided in MT where tags were good for either or and a lot of guys from East of the Mississippi were hell bent on killing 130" Whitetails over some 160"+ MD bucks I showed them.

I've hunted out there a bunch in Oct. and late Sept for Pronghorn. Pronghorn rut I agree is absolutely a mad house. Deer hunting yes there are select areas that can be busy but overall I have never had an issue getting away from people and have hunted a section of the Natl Forest up there where in a solid week single digits of vehicles have gone by and from observation 1 or 2 other hunters even hunted it. This is over multiple years and I am pretty far on the sliding scale of pressure where I don't like seeing a dust cloud form a vehicle within miles of me.

I spoke with one of the groups that advocated against the Sept 1 opener for NRs a few years ago. The leader of that organization was spouting B.S. about crowding in the very area this topic is mainly about. I can tell you from that convo it was zero % about pressure on the animals and 100% anti NR. I asked if he had even step foot in the area in Sept. of course he didn't answer that...not that he could have went far since he was about 350lbs.

Again I agree changes are needed out west but the vast majority of the arguments have zero to do with pressure on animals and more about resident opportunity (or perceived opportunity). And the second the conversation turns to residents helping flip the bill or dial back their pressure lips get shut quickly. Short of funny that the changes that effect Residents doesn't seem to be a high priority with the "dire" situation the animals are in according to them.

Certainly residents are hoping to not have every single public spot overrun with NR hunters is part of it, but many of the folks who are advocating for NR archery tag reductions are also advocating for adjustments in how all of the tags are allotted. Mule deer should be managed separately from whitetail completely at this point and harvest should continue to be brought down both resident and NR. Tag allocations for residents have been cut in some areas as well and are in line to be cut again. Residents are shouldering loss of opportunity to address the "dire" situation. Most I have visited with, would not call it dire, but more along the lines of trending the wrong direction, and before it is dire, positive action should be taken to address a population that throughout all of its range is generally faltering due to habitat loss or fragmentation, over harvest and white tail encroachment. The tag cut to NR archers only effects public land also, so anyone wanting opportunity from out of state is welcome to gain private land access or go guided if they want to hunt outside of a draw opportunity for archery. I'm not saying you wont find people in south dakota who are anti NR in any aspect, no different than most states, but many are simply saying, NR shouldn't be harvesting as many deer or more than residents are via archery.

 

[JBWinter]

The numbers posted above show that NR to R mule deer archery harvest is not 5:1 it was like 1.5:1 at best and is it not reasonable to expect that somebody paying 10x the amount of money for a tag might hunt harder than a resident


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I do not know what tag you are buying....but you are not paying 10x for a NR archery tag. Not in SD anyways.

 

[Lytro]

You’re misunderstanding, in the breakdown posted above the numbers bear out that an almost equal number of statewide archery tags are sold to Residents vs NonRes. Is it not unlikely that most residents might go out for a weekend, maybe 2, never leave their truck unless they see a buck they want vs a nonresident who comes out for 7-10 days and puts on the boot miles. Maybe that explains the 1.5:1 ratio of nonresident kills vs resident.

I really don’t have a dog in the fight. Maybe in a couple of years I will try to get out there and bow hunt but it just isn’t something I really want to do right now.

I do think it is ridiculous that now NR bowhunters will have to draw a tag, and still won’t be able to hunt the full season. Seems to me with the new cap on NR bowhunters maybe they should let them hunt from the opener.

I'm not sure where you're getting the info stating an equal number of resident and NR tags are sold. If I remember correctly, it was more like 30K resident tags and 5K NR. The mule deer harvest numbers being equal between the two is where the disproportion is. You also have to realize the 30K resident hunters are spread out fairly evenly across the state, while a lot of the NR hunters are concentrated in NW corner of the state specifically targeting mule deer.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

I do not know what tag you are buying....but you are not paying 10x for a NR archery tag. Not in SD anyways.

What does a resident tag cost? Not more than $28.60 I bet


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[Lytro]

What does a resident tag cost? Not more than $28.60 I bet


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$40

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Crazy, didn’t realize they were that expensive there.


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[Fatcamp]

Crazy, didn’t realize they were that expensive there.


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It's getting pretty expensive to hunt here. $55 just to fish and hunt small game. Worth it to me, but sure ain't cheap.

 

[KurtR]

It's getting pretty expensive to hunt here. $55 just to fish and hunt small game. Worth it to me, but sure ain't cheap.

I don’t know .15 cents a day is pretty cheap. That’s like 7 cans of chew a couple 30 racks of bush light. Not even one tank of gas maybe a half dozen arrows if you get cheap ones. One bag of dog food. Overal I think for what we get it’s a pretty good deal.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Yea I can fish and hunt just about everything here in Idaho for $126, only controlled hunts app fees and antelope, sheep, goat or moose if drawn not included in that price


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