Small caliber regret

[TaperPin]

Always the same.

How many shots at that angle have you taken on animals? How many were recovered? With what calibers, bullets and impact velocity?

You’re always the same. Lol

 

[Str8shooter]

Does this small caliber philosophy begin and end with lead bullets? Anyone realizing this success with LRX or other unleaded ammo?

 

[roadrunner]

To have regrets you must first walk away from what works.

I haven't walked away from what works, so no regrets.

 

[philcox]

I have no regrets, and like many others, wish I had done it sooner. That would have meant saving money on a 300WM & 7PRC and CarbonSix barrels for both ...

With that said, I think someone needs to go through the S2H course to really appreciate the switch. You learn that a reliable shootable system is paramount, and that practice is non-negotiable. I would argue that if you "practice" with a 223, and then hunt with a 7PRC (in the exact same config), the ONLY thing that is the same is everything up to the firing pin striking the primer, after that all your practice with the 223 amounts to very little. The two things that matter most (IMHO): Recoil management and staying on the animal, do NOT transfer from 223 to 7PRC, heck arguable if it transfers 100% to my 6CM or 65CM. If your gonna hunt with the 7PRC, then you need to practice with it, and THAT to me is where the game changes. There is no way I'm having a practice session where I am dumping 50 7PRC down the barrel and not having a complete form collapse by the 15+ shot (and in reality probably 10).

Just my $.02

 

[Hydra6]

A lot of fluff is online about how every elk or deer is as easy to kill, and that’s just not correct unless you believe every animal will turn for a good angle. If you mind waiting for good shooting angles within the limitation of the cartridge/bullet then sure, use the smallest thing that will kill it if you want to. For most of my adult life I’ve enjoyed focusing on antler or horn size and early on had a tremendous mulie just walk into the trees because the shot angle was outside of the limitations of the rifle. Since then I will never feel under gunned trophy hunting with a 7 mag or larger since I’ve already paid the price once for carrying a less capable combination. Real life comes with a lot of less than ideal situations.

Are you really willing to pass up a big deer or elk at an angle like this? Nothing wrong with your answer either way, but more than once I’ve seen first hand how big talk about shooting ethics go out the window quickly. (Cue the dude saying he shoots everything at 500 yards in the neck and has never lost an animal, or a 223 would easily kill it.)

View attachment 961987

Took that shot a few years ago in Wyoming, 300ish yards, 280AI, 162 ELDX in factory Hornady Precision Hunter ammo. Went from back to front with the projectile resting against the front skin. The front part of projectile fragmented away but the rest of the projectile drove the length of the mule deer. DRT.

 

[RockAndSage]

You know, because elk are damn near bulletproof.

This was one of the things that kept me from getting out of larger cartridges entirely - that, and piles of 30-06 casings and ammo. I knew from early childhood that .220 Swift and .22-250 were a meat ax on antelope and deer, and was absolutely willing to entertain the idea of .223 with the right bullet at shorter to moderate distances being perfectly fine on them too. But I had never hunted elk, heard the same kind of stories about them being tanks, etc.

Some of the more convincing stuff for me on elk with small calibers came from Form sharing the high volumes of records he's kept from hunts he's been on, and having witnesses share they'd seen him drop one with a .223 at 700+ yards. But it was the collection of individual hunt datapoints that really helped put it together, in seeing almost no difference over time in the number of shots needed to put down an elk with bigger or smaller cartridges, how often/far they run, etc. And, the point that everyone's seen rodeos with big magnums on elk - but the excuses for needing multiple shots were different.

At some point, when I've never shot an elk once, and a guy is sharing data from a hundred or more elk he's seen shot, it's hard not to accept and incorporate that advice and insight, as the goldmine of experience it is. But combine that with all the other aspects of small caliber/cartridge advantages, it definitely became a "why the hell didn't I do this sooner" kind of thing.

 

[RockAndSage]

It's tough not killing something with a gun and load I put a lot of time into (the 7-300 NMI),

Is there a distance/scenario threshold you can think of, where the 7-300 NMI would be your preference?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Does this small caliber philosophy begin and end with lead bullets? Anyone realizing this success with LRX or other unleaded ammo?

No. It begins and ends with understanding the importance of impact velocity for proper terminal performance. If you pay attention to that, you can get excellent performance out of a good small caliber monolithic bullet.

Specifically, Barnes states that the LRX will work down to 1600 FPS, but recommends 1700-1800 FPS impact velocity.

How To Pick The Best Hunting Bullet For You

Barnes TSX vs. TTSX vs. LRX Bullets

barnesbullets.com

0.264" 6.5MM LRX 127 GR BT

Pioneering the world's most effective all-copper hunting bullet. For over 30 years, we've been engineering the most advanced hunting bullets, trusted by the world's best hunters and shooters.

barnesbullets.com

Plenty of big game animals have died to the .264 127-grain LRX. A 6.5mm CM should be capable of killing animals at 500 yards using that bullet from a reasonable hand load. I’m sure if you were to search RokSlide, you could find examples in the various bullet effectiveness threads for monolithic bullets. I wouldn’t expect as much hamburger as with an ELDM, but I would expect plenty of damage to ensure clean kills.

 

[hibernation]

Are you really willing to pass up a big deer or elk at an angle like this? Nothing wrong with your answer either way, but more than once I’ve seen first hand how big talk about shooting ethics go out the window quickly. (Cue the dude saying he shoots everything at 500 yards in the neck and has never lost an animal, or a 223 would easily kill it.)

View attachment 961987

Yes, I am willing to pass up a shot at this angle. Where exactly are you trying to put your bullet? And how much margin of error do you think you have? I'm honestly asking here, I always thought the "Texas heart shot" was a joke, not a thing anyone willingly did.

 

[atmat]

Without putting words in your mouth, your argument seems to be heavier bullets going faster don’t kill better?

That would be my argument, yes, as “heavier bullets going faster” tells you nothing about its construction. Example: a heavy FMJ out of a 22” 243 won’t kill faster than a 77TMK out of a 16” 223.

The junior high me would argue that just doesn’t match what is seen in the field.

Get more experience in the field then. Alternatively, do some reading.

 

[hibernation]

Does this small caliber philosophy begin and end with lead bullets? Anyone realizing this success with LRX or other unleaded ammo?

I've been trying out the LRX in a 6.5 CM, with reasonable success so far. Soft tissue impacts showed pretty modest expansion, but I caught a rib on entry with a deer last week and it put a golfball-sized hole through the lungs. Incapacitated very quickly.

It's not doing the same damage as a match bullet. I don't know how that scales down to even smaller cartridges, but I'd call it reasonable performance so far.

 

[huntnful]

Is there a distance/scenario threshold you can think of, where the 7-300 NMI would be your preference?

There is, but the more I shoot and the more animals I kill, I really don’t like shooting that far. I’ve definitely shifted views over time and would rather have an 800 yard gun I’m confident in than a 1300 yard gun that has a 90% chance of missing or wounding at those distances anyways.

Make a 2 hour hike to go look for blood or finish off an animal a couple of times and it isn’t all peas and carrots lol.

The 6.5 is absolutely good to 1100+ yards ballistically. But the 7-300 “hit rate” is much higher at those distances. But I don’t like those distances much anymore is what it is lol.

If I never had an opportunity at animal beyond 600 yards again, I’d be content lol.

 

[RockAndSage]

Are you really willing to pass up a big deer or elk at an angle like this? Nothing wrong with your answer either way,

I killed my first buck with this presentation, going dead-away from me, with a shot to the base of the neck.

At 110yds, 150gr 30-06, the impact cracked the skull-cap between the antlers 6 inches above the entrance point, and blew out several vertebrae below the entrance. This angle is a much more viable shot to the neck than side presentations of the neck, IMO, and I'd have no problems taking the shot in the photo short of 200yds, in good conditions.

 

[Pharmseller]

And I love the response, “But what if it’s the BOALT?”

Did I do that right? Buck/Bull of a lifetime?

And my reply is the same, especially then. How would you feel wounding that animal by trying an iffy shot, even if you shoot a Whizbang UltraMag?

Not worth it.

 

[Formidilosus]

You’re always the same. Lol

You are correct- I only talk about things I have done repeatedly- not fictitious dreams. Of course you didn’t answer the question, because yours is much closer to “0” than “lots”.

The last going away shot was 10 days ago or so with @ztc92. The bull fell immediately.

 

[RockAndSage]

There is, but the more I shoot and the more animals I kill, I really don’t like shooting that far. I’ve definitely shifted views over time and would rather have an 800 yard gun I’m confident in than a 1300 yard gun that has a 90% chance of missing or wounding at those distances anyways.

Make a 2 hour hike to go look for blood or finish off an animal a couple of times and it isn’t all peas and carrots lol.

The 6.5 is absolutely good to 1100+ yards ballistically. But the 7-300 “hit rate” is much higher at those distances. But I don’t like those distances much anymore is what it is lol.

If I never had an opportunity at animal beyond 600 yards again, I’d be content lol.

My dad's voice is bouncing through my head in reading this. He has a way of being really abrasive and sometimes funny in pointing out "obvious" truths one of us is missing. He also always hammered home the fundamentals of stalking and getting in close when I was a kid, with wind, tracking, route-planning, etc.

So, a couple of years ago I was talking about wanting to take a long-range class and be able to take animals out to 600 or 700 yards or so. And he just says, "Or, you know, you could just be a better hunter."

That kinda stung.

But I still want to be able to get to 600 with absolute reliability. That long-range stuff you guys do is like voodoo to me.

 

[North of 60]

I killed my first buck with this presentation, going dead-away from me, with a shot to the base of the neck.

At 110yds, 150gr 30-06, the impact cracked the skull-cap between the antlers 6 inches above the entrance point, and blew out several vertebrae below the entrance. This angle is a much more viable shot to the neck than side presentations of the neck, IMO, and I'd have no problems taking the shot in the photo short of 200yds, in good conditions.

Agree with this when (with much practice and) shooting from a rest...i've done similarly at 190 yards on a buck. Buck was DRT.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I still like both.

 

[43.6N]

Yeah, no regrets here. Ive shot a lot of guns (like a lot of us) but the main weapons carried have been:
Started with 7-08
Then archery for 15yrs
Then 300wby
Then 300wsm
Then 6.5cm
Now 22 creed is in the works.

The diameter of my bullet is far from being what keeps me from ethically harvesting an animal.

 

[huntnful]

My dad's voice is bouncing through my head in reading this. He has a way of being really abrasive and sometimes funny in pointing out "obvious" truths one of us is missing. He also always hammered home the fundamentals of stalking and getting in close when I was a kid, with wind, tracking, route-planning, etc.

So, a couple of years ago I was talking about wanting to take a long-range class and be able to take animals out to 600 or 700 yards or so. And he just says, "Or, you know, you could just be a better hunter."

That kinda stung.

But I still want to be able to get to 600 with absolute reliability.

Hahaha he’s definitely not wrong. But man, there are a lot field opportunities in that 5-600 yard range that you can take advantage of with a very high probably of success with the right equipment and practice.

I definitely see some of the older generation looking down their nose at the new age killing abilities. Which is understandable.

I JUST finished a hunt in WY with a great dude. He’d never glassed off a tripod, or shot off a bipod. He talked shit about it the whole time lol. I sent him into a spot I was confident in and he ended up glassing his buck off a tripod, and killing it off a bipod. He didn’t say we were right in how we hunt, but certainly didn’t have anything negative to say haha.

He was just used to hunting by covering a ton of country and snap shooting deer he basically stumbled upon. Was still a VERY successful hunter. There’s just more than one way to skin a cat.