Signed up for the Covid Zombie Juice.....

[NDGuy]

No no no. You said YOU would feel better. I understand the broader picture regarding my question. I'm asking why YOU would feel better if they took it? Not trying to be rude and I apologize if it comes off that way. I think we all need to evaluate the choice for ourselves and not pressure each other. Just wondering.

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Yeah you are coming off a little strong bud. Haha

Idk how it wasn’t clear in my post you quoted. I already explained that I am likely wanting to get the vaccine, but I’m not 100% comfortable with it. Not sure why that's an issue, I don't know anyone that is 100% on board with zero worry. That would be foolish IMO.

I would feel more comfortable if the high ranking people involved in the development, research, and all the decision making were to back up their own decisions by getting it with everyone else. They have all the research and experts right there. Plenty of other medical pros did the same with the other vaccines. Show some leadership and help lessen the worries of people on the fence. There are plenty of them.

 

[Rob5589]

Been watching this thread, as I'm curious about everyone's thoughts. I work with many elite college athletes, many of which tested positive for covid early this fall. Many were asymptomatic, some had mild symptoms, others were dogged by nasty respiratory stuff. All recovered. Fast forward 2-3 months, and several of these once healthy, envy of everyone who looked at them 20-somethings now get tired just doing laundry, & are going to specialists trying to figure out what's wrong. The common thread among them is a prior positive covid test.
Just because you had it once, & it wasn't that bad, means absolutely nothing.
As far as I know (I could be wrong), the vaccine was made using the same technology as the Zika vaccine...they just modified the target protein, which makes me a tad more confident in the vaccine than I would be otherwise.

That is an unknown so far. But it is a commonality among those who have had moderate to severe symptoms. My wife (RN) has seen pts with those types of lingering effects.

 

[seldomseensmith]

Been watching this thread, as I'm curious about everyone's thoughts. I work with many elite college athletes, many of which tested positive for covid early this fall. Many were asymptomatic, some had mild symptoms, others were dogged by nasty respiratory stuff. All recovered. Fast forward 2-3 months, and several of these once healthy, envy of everyone who looked at them 20-somethings now get tired just doing laundry, & are going to specialists trying to figure out what's wrong. The common thread among them is a prior positive covid test.
Just because you had it once, & it wasn't that bad, means absolutely nothing.
As far as I know (I could be wrong), the vaccine was made using the same technology as the Zika vaccine...they just modified the target protein, which makes me a tad more confident in the vaccine than I would be otherwise.

I've definitely heard this too many times to ignore. Of course most of what we hear is antidotal but this story comes up over and over for me. Most of the stuff I enjoy is high altitude human powered travel of sorts. I'm not stubborn enough to have made up my mind about getting the vaccine but likely won't be offered to me for a while still. These discussions are helpful when they involve people interested in teaching and learning. Unfortunately they are often derailed and belittled by guys that are "way smarter" than the rest of us. I'm thankful for all the helpful posts though. I'm neither medically inclined nor knowledgeable of the actual inner workings of our government enough to have much input. My mother in law is a pediatrician of 40 plus years and is now retired. She has a bunch of grandchildren including my sons and is very much in touch with the current and possible future pediatric treatments and or vaccine for COVID. If ever I feel I have any credible info on that front, I'll find a way to post on Rokslide.

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[7Bartman]

I don't think the data on efficacy is any good for either one of them. They both just vaccinated a bunch of people and gave placebo to others. Kept track of Covid infections in both groups. That isn't a strong data set by a long ways. When they "rush" these products to market they are far more concerned with safety than they are with efficacy. So far, both have proven to be very safe in the short term. Long term, as well as real efficacy remains to be seen with both. Pfizer doesn't exactly have the best record with safety.

My main concern with the Pfizer product is the handling of the vaccine. It is a very fragile product with stringent handling requirements. Those requirements are going to get broken at steps along the way. How many doses of the Pfizer vaccine are going to be rendered inactive because of the handling. This is one of the things that would make regular approval of this product difficult in a normal environment.

I'll try and address some of the concerns in this thread and some from Jmez above.
First off, how is it not a strong data set? Both vaccine studies were very large >30k, double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies, which is the GOLD standard. The primary endpoints were pre-specified. The efficacy of both vaccines were abundantly clear (both FDA advisory committees voted overwhelmingly to support the emergency use authorization). I can tell you this study was highly watched as for once, we all had a stake in the game.
You are correct about the concerns for the handling of the Pfizer vaccine, but this is also highly regulated. I'm not saying there won't be some temperature deviations and lots that are thrown out, but these won't be administered. If I was able to give experimental ebola drugs in Africa without a dependable power source that had to be kept below -50, I'm not too worried about the vaccine here.
Okay, to address of the other comments: 1) The mRNA in the vaccine is directed to make the spike protein from SARS-CoV2. While mutations have occurred in this spike protein, there is no indication that this will greatly impact the efficacy of the vaccine. The issue with the influenza virus is quite different, but suffice to say not a similar comparison here.
2) There are still many unknowns, but what we do know are what the common side effects are (injection-site soreness, malaise, chills, joint pain). Most of these occur after the booster shot (i.e., when the immune system has been primed). What we don't know are the incidence of serious rare adverse events, however we should be getting a better handle on this quit soon as hundreds of thousands are being exposed. I would bet that some of these (e.g. 1/50,000) will occur, but hopefully the benefit/risk will stay acceptable.
3) There have already been some cases of anaphylaxis reported. This does not surprise me at all, especially given the lipid nanoparticle (think tiny fat globule...olive oil in vinegar) that is used to deliver the mRNA into are cells. This vaccine in some degree does what the virus does and hijacks our cellular machinery to make the spike protein so our immune system can then recognize it.
I'm happy to answer any other questions if I can. In full disclosure I'm not an expert on infectious disease or vaccine development, but I do have expertise on mRNA and drug development.

 

[seldomseensmith]

Yeah you are coming off a little strong bud. Haha

Idk how it wasn’t clear in my post you quoted. I already explained that I am likely wanting to get the vaccine, but I’m not 100% comfortable with it. Not sure why that's an issue, I don't know anyone that is 100% on board with zero worry. That would be foolish IMO.

I would feel more comfortable if the high ranking people involved in the development, research, and all the decision making were to back up their own decisions by getting it with everyone else. They have all the research and experts right there. Plenty of other medical pros did the same with the other vaccines. Show some leadership and help lessen the worries of people on the fence. There are plenty of them.

No not an issue at all. I'm definitely in the same boat not being comfortable with it. And I won't bother you about it anymore either. I guess I just personally don't find any comfort in that type of thing. I'm much more concerned with the statistics. Short term and of course the unknown long term. The more people that take it, the better the data gets. There will be stories Someones gonna take it and stroke out. Someones gonna stroke out writing a check in line at the grocery store too but well, you know...

What a crazy conversation.

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[NDGuy]

and several of these once healthy, envy of everyone who looked at them 20-somethings now get tired just doing laundry, & are going to specialists trying to figure out what's wrong.

Have the docs confirmed anything? What would be causing the chronic fatigue?

 

[NDGuy]

No not an issue at all. I'm definitely in the same boat not being comfortable with it. And I won't bother you about it anymore either. I guess I just personally don't find any comfort in that type of thing. I'm much more concerned with the statistics. Short term and of course the unknown long term. The more people that take it, the better the data gets. There will be stories Someones gonna take it and stroke out. Someones gonna stroke out writing a check in line at the grocery store too but well, you know...

What a crazy conversation.

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Yeah man, crazy year lol

At least when we are in line they’ll be a lot of data. So far looks good, but no way to tell the long term risks on either side of the coin. But I’m leaning towards vaccine vs risking catching it. If nothing else I’m going to die from boredom sitting around at home if I don’t get the shot! Haha

With a kiddo on the way we haven’t done much this year.

 

[Broomd]

Been watching this thread, as I'm curious about everyone's thoughts. I work with many elite college athletes, many of which tested positive for covid early this fall. Many were asymptomatic, some had mild symptoms, others were dogged by nasty respiratory stuff. All recovered. Fast forward 2-3 months, and several of these once healthy, envy of everyone who looked at them 20-somethings now get tired just doing laundry, & are going to specialists trying to figure out what's wrong. The common thread among them is a prior positive covid test.
Just because you had it once, & it wasn't that bad, means absolutely nothing.
As far as I know (I could be wrong), the vaccine was made using the same technology as the Zika vaccine...they just modified the target protein, which makes me a tad more confident in the vaccine than I would be otherwise.

Thanks for chiming in here, that's a pretty damning statement. Knowing and working with so many younger, seemingly invincible adults that are fighting this long term is a real eye-opener.

I know of some of these examples myself.

 

[FatCampzWife]

Have the docs confirmed anything? What would be causing the chronic fatigue?

I haven't heard as of yet. All I know is they tested positive, they either were asymptomatic or were not, were practicing again after quarantine for several weeks and doing fine, and just a few weeks ago many of them (mostly female swimmers, I believe) suddenly were excessively fatigued and some with respiratory issues. Longhaul or re-infection, or so.ething else, I don't know. But I know the athletes & reporting party, and it scares the crap out of me. My son & I had mild symptoms, and he's being re-exposed at school on a daily basis.
I'm not an alarmist, & have a history of ignoring health issues (exercise-induced rhabdo, anyone?), and typically go by what I can validate, so take or leave my opinion with that bkgd info.

 

[jmez]

The gold standard for a vaccine would be a challenge study. Would be some serious ethical concerns with that.

How are they controlling for different exposure levels and situations among the participants in the study?

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[7Bartman]

How are they controlling for different exposure levels and situations among the participants in the study?

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Easy, that's what randomization is for. The gold standard is db, pc, studies. This is the standard for just about every drug/vaccine in this country as challenge studies are unethical.

 

[bcv]

This is relevant..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339736971892183040

 

[7Bartman]

Just a little vasovagal syncope. Likely nerves regarding the situation and not the vaccine.

 

[highstepper]

This is relevant..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339736971892183040

That appears to be what is known as a vasovagal reaction. I've seen this especially in children and young soldiers getting vaccinated. Not all that uncommon. Probably as much from the fright of being on camera as the shot. Heart rate slows down, blood pressure drops, nausea- dizziness, then mean old Mr. Gravity takes over. Poor thing. Not really relevant to the pro and cons of covid vaccine, however.

 

[Rob5589]

The shortened time frame is an issue for many, which is reasonable. Something to ponder, there have been various medications on the market, for decades even, that were eventually pulled due to dangers that arose. Zantac/ranitidine very recently. Just more food for thought.

 

[NoWiser]

That happened to me as a youngster getting a flu shot. One minute I’m getting the shot, the next I’m staring at the bottom of a chair. My mom never made me get another after that, so it actually worked out pretty well. That was 30 years ago and it hasn’t happened since.

 

[7Bartman]

The shortened time frame is an issue for many, which is reasonable. Something to ponder, there have been various medications on the market, for decades even, that were eventually pulled due to dangers that arose. Zantac/ranitidine very recently. Just more food for thought.

We never know the "long-term" side effects of many meds. The regulations for many diseases require a 2-3 year study period. There is no reason to suspect longer-term side effects based on our history with other vaccines. Not saying it can't happen, just no priors necessarily. If this were to be a requirement it'd take even longer than the average 11.1 years to get a drug to market.
For both vaccines we have relatively large studies with robust efficacy. We don't have this for many diseases for various reasons.
BTW, zantac wasn't pulled b/c of a new side effect, rather an potentially carcinogenic substance was identified in the manufacturing of some of the products. Be glad we have an FDA constantly checking in on this. Can you imagine the stuff that gets dumped into supplements that aren't regulated? A little food for thought.

 

[bcv]

Godspeed to those who get the shot.
Nothing I've read in 150 something posts makes me want to get the vaccine.

This place is full of hunters that see first hand it's survival of the fittest.
What happened to building your own immune system?

 

[fwafwow]

That is an unknown so far. But it is a commonality among those who have had moderate to severe symptoms. My wife (RN) has seen pts with those types of lingering effects.

I'm in the camp of having had "mild" symptoms (the medical category term - "mild" still sucked) for 3 weeks, including pneumonia in one lung. I was previously completely healthy otherwise. Several months later I learned I have ground glass opacities in my lungs. I don't know what that means in the context of C-19, or for me long term, but I'm pretty sure it isn't good. Not saying this should be a dispositive issue for anyone, especially since it's anecdotal, but I offer it for consideration - especially for those who think that C-19 outcomes are binary (death or survival without any ongoing issues).

BTW, the x-ray was a great excuse to my buddies as to why I couldn't keep up in Idaho!

Apologies to those who watched the nuked thread for what's a combination of several of my posts there.

 

[orionthehunter1]

I'll try and address some of the concerns in this thread and some from Jmez above.
First off, how is it not a strong data set? Both vaccine studies were very large >30k, double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies, which is the GOLD standard. The primary endpoints were pre-specified. The efficacy of both vaccines were abundantly clear (both FDA advisory committees voted overwhelmingly to support the emergency use authorization). I can tell you this study was highly watched as for once, we all had a stake in the game.
You are correct about the concerns for the handling of the Pfizer vaccine, but this is also highly regulated. I'm not saying there won't be some temperature deviations and lots that are thrown out, but these won't be administered. If I was able to give experimental ebola drugs in Africa without a dependable power source that had to be kept below -50, I'm not too worried about the vaccine here.
Okay, to address of the other comments: 1) The mRNA in the vaccine is directed to make the spike protein from SARS-CoV2. While mutations have occurred in this spike protein, there is no indication that this will greatly impact the efficacy of the vaccine. The issue with the influenza virus is quite different, but suffice to say not a similar comparison here.
2) There are still many unknowns, but what we do know are what the common side effects are (injection-site soreness, malaise, chills, joint pain). Most of these occur after the booster shot (i.e., when the immune system has been primed). What we don't know are the incidence of serious rare adverse events, however we should be getting a better handle on this quit soon as hundreds of thousands are being exposed. I would bet that some of these (e.g. 1/50,000) will occur, but hopefully the benefit/risk will stay acceptable.
3) There have already been some cases of anaphylaxis reported. This does not surprise me at all, especially given the lipid nanoparticle (think tiny fat globule...olive oil in vinegar) that is used to deliver the mRNA into are cells. This vaccine in some degree does what the virus does and hijacks our cellular machinery to make the spike protein so our immune system can then recognize it.
I'm happy to answer any other questions if I can. In full disclosure I'm not an expert on infectious disease or vaccine development, but I do have expertise on mRNA and drug development

Isn't it true that Pfizer and Maderna asked for complete immunity before releasing the vaccine?