Sig Sauer P320 Issues

[JF_Idaho]

@Dan Carey

It's not hard to find.

 

[JohnJohnson]

But...but...he's also pulling the trigger through the portion that typically disables the striker block safety, in order to get the pistol to fire...

Unless these pistols are in the holster with the trigger half pulled (which I suppose is possible), his "experiment" isn't particularly pertinent.

All these "experiments" showing "if I pull the trigger half way through", "if I switch all these parts in a mix-and-match fest", "if I ..." really don't seem to address the issue that is claimed, which is that unmodified pistols, with the trigger not pulled, are firing. No one so far seems to have shown how that happens or if it does happen.

At some point a pattern develops. Do you think taking the slack out of the trigger should allow you to fire the gun without pulling it the rest of the way?

I'm not a Sig hater, I have 3 pistols from them that I quite like. Do you have a guess as to why this seems to happen disproportionately more with 320s compared to other duty pistols?

Know what else works but we don't know how? Tylenol. At some point the results allow you to draw conclusions about whether YOU are going to use it without understanding the mechanism.

 

[Dan Carey]

why did you do that? Just to ruin my day? LOL

@Dan Carey

It's not hard to find.

View attachment 912690

 

[JF_Idaho]

why did you do that? Just to ruin my day? LOL

I mean honestly I will admit that those cases could easily fall into negligent handling. Jury awarded.

There are up to a 100 pending litigations.

But Sig also rammed through an immunity deal through State of New Hampshire legislation.

 

[Dan Carey]

Yeah, I'm not defending Sig, I have a M17 and a X5 Legion that have lost half of their value IF I could even sell them. Sig should man up and just say they are working on a solution.

 

[TheCougar]

But...but...he's also pulling the trigger through the portion that typically disables the striker block safety, in order to get the pistol to fire...

Unless these pistols are in the holster with the trigger half pulled (which I suppose is possible), his "experiment" isn't particularly pertinent.

All these "experiments" showing "if I pull the trigger half way through", "if I switch all these parts in a mix-and-match fest", "if I ..." really don't seem to address the issue that is claimed, which is that unmodified pistols, with the trigger not pulled, are firing. No one so far seems to have shown how that happens or if it does happen.

Yeah, but a pistol should not fire with the safety engaged. Safeties can have mechanical failure, but this sure seems like the pistol will fire when the trigger is depressed even with the safety engaged. I can easily see someone having their finger on the trigger with the pre-travel taken up, dropping a mag and ramming home a new mag and having a NG. Not defending the poor mechanics, but that seems very plausible.

 

[Thegman]

At some point a pattern develops. Do you think taking the slack out of the trigger should allow you to fire the gun without pulling it the rest of the way?

What I think about that is immaterial. The argument is generally that the 320 is capable of firing without any input on the trigger. This conflates the two, but turning a wood screw into the trigger, by definition, does not provide evidence for UD.

I'm not a Sig hater, I have 3 pistols from them that I quite like. Do you have a guess as to why this seems to happen disproportionately more with 320s compared to other duty pistols?

I'm not a "Sig hater", "Sig fan boy" or anything else, I've never even shot a Sig...that should have nothing to do with anything. This isn't an emotional argument, it's a rational argument. My WAG if this is the case, is rather light, relatively short pull triggers, being in a partially pulled condition...but my guess is just that. My guess is generally not a pistol firing with it's trigger in it's normal reset, resting position, in part because that hasn't been demonstrated that I know of. That said, wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm shown to be...but this video isn't showing that.

Know what else works but we don't know how? Tylenol. At some point the results allow you to draw conclusions about whether YOU are going to use it without understanding the mechanism.

This is a non sequitur strawman. You're apparently claiming something you can clearly demonstrate repeatably (the effects of Tylenol) is the same as something you cannot demonstrate at all (a 320 firing with zero input on the trigger).

 

[Thegman]

Yeah, but a pistol should not fire with the safety engaged. Safeties can have mechanical failure, but this sure seems like the pistol will fire when the trigger is depressed even with the safety engaged. I can easily see someone having their finger on the trigger with the pre-travel taken up, dropping a mag and ramming home a new mag and having a NG. Not defending the poor mechanics, but that seems very plausible.

I don't see a manual safety on the pistol in question in the video posted by @JohnJohnson, which is what I'm referring to. I haven't watched the other video.

Also, yes, what you're saying seems plausible, but isn't at all the problem that's being claimed these pistols have.

 

[JohnJohnson]

The argument is generally that the 320 is capable of firing without any input on the trigger.

If you're going to do this sort of debate-style stuff to me instead of just having an actual conversation, can you at least be debating things I've actually said instead of things you've heard other people say?

This isn't an emotional argument, it's a rational argument.

The rational argument is that the Sig 320 is not as safe as other pistols.

My WAG if this is the case, is rather light triggers being in a partially pulled condition

Great, a gun going off after being partially pulled is less safe than others that don't do that. We're on the same page.

This is a non sequitur strawman

If you're going to do this debate-style stuff can you at least not throw out logical fallacies that don't even apply? A "strawman" would be building up a separate argument you're not saying so that I could refute that, instead of your actual argument. An example of that would be you arguing a point I never made, like you did at the start of your reply.

You're apparently claiming something you can clearly demonstrate repeatably (the effects of Tylenol) is the same as something you cannot demonstrate at all (a 320 firing with zero input on the trigger).

Once again I never said anything about no input to the trigger. Back to your "strawman" buzzword.

 

[bdg848]

What I think about that is immaterial. The argument is generally that the 320 is capable of firing without any input on the trigger. This conflates the two, but turning a wood screw into the trigger, by definition, does not provide evidence for UD.

I'm not a "Sig hater", "Sig fan boy" or anything else, I've never even shot a Sig...that should have nothing to do with anything. This isn't an emotional argument, it's a rational argument. My WAG if this is the case, is rather light, relatively short pull triggers, being in a partially pulled condition...but my guess is just that. My guess is generally not a pistol firing with it's trigger in it's normal reset, resting position, in part because that hasn't been demonstrated that I know of. That said, wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm shown to be...but this video isn't showing that.

This is a non sequitur strawman. You're apparently claiming something you can clearly demonstrate repeatably (the effects of Tylenol) is the same as something you cannot demonstrate at all (a 320 firing with zero input on the trigger).

I think the point that guy in the video is making is that the trigger bar in the lower is what actuates the striker in the bottom of the slide and the the release of the striker by the trigger bar is what fires the gun. I believe he is using the screw to make the trigger bar hold onto the striker with less "meat", simulating an out of spec part. Him taking out .75mm of travel is simulating either the striker or trigger bar being out of spec by .75mm, or each part being out of spec by .375mm, or gunk causing one or both parts to not fully return to position by .75mm or .375mm respectively. If one of those conditions were met and then lifting or twisting pressure separates the two parts further, the gun goes off. That was my understanding of his argument, not exclusively that someone taking out the pretravel could be bumped causing it to fire. Although, he did make that argument in addition to the main argument above ^.

 

[Thegman]

If you're going to do this sort of debate-style stuff to me instead of just having an actual conversation, can you at least be debating things I've actually said instead of things you've heard other people say?

I wasn't debating you. I was stating that the video you posted does not address the claim that these pistols are firing without touching the trigger in any way. Is that something you'd agree with?

The rational argument is that the Sig 320 is not as safe as other pistols.

I'd agree with that. Most with no manual safety and rather short pull and light triggers. Not quite, but IMO, in the direction of carrying a Series 80 1911 with a cocked hammer, safety off and grip safety pinned. As @Formidilosus stated, "unforgiving".

Great, a gun going off after being partially pulled is less safe than others that don't do that. We're on the same page.

With that, yes, we are.

If you're going to do this debate-style stuff can you at least not throw out logical fallacies that don't even apply? A "strawman" would be building up a separate argument you're not saying so that I could refute that, instead of your actual argument. An example of that would be you arguing a point I never made, like you did at the start of your reply.

Once again I never said anything about no input to the trigger. Back to your "strawman" buzzword.

Yes, not knowing how Tylenol works somehow supporting the argument that 320 can fire with no input on the trigger is probably more of a red herring than a straw man...either being a logical fallacy. Again, I never stated anything about what you were or weren't arguing, just that the posted video didn't address the common arguments that imply that 320s are firing without any trigger input whatsoever.

 

[Thegman]

I think the point that guy in the video is making is that the trigger bar in the lower is what actuates the striker in the bottom of the slide and the the release of the striker by the trigger bar is what fires the gun.

I may not be fully following what you're saying, but if I am, that's the same as every striker fired pistol I've ever examined.

I believe he is using the screw to make the trigger bar hold onto the striker with less "meat", simulating an out of spec part. Him taking out .75mm of travel is simulating either the striker or trigger bar being out of spec by .75mm, or each part being out of spec by .375mm, or gunk causing one or both parts to not fully return to position by .75mm or .375mm respectively.

This may be what you're saying, but it appears he's using the screw to move the trigger completely through the initial travel where the striker safety block is disengaged (much more than 1mm), then, after the trigger has "hit the wall" and staged to fire, another .75 - 1.0 mm. Basically setting it in a hair trigger mode, completely ready to fire. Then jacking with it until it goes off. I just did essentially the same thing while sitting here with my Canik. Stage the trigger, jostle the slide almost imperceptibly back and the striker drops.

If one of those conditions were met and then lifting or twisting pressure separates the two parts further, the gun goes off. That was my understanding of his argument, not exclusively that someone taking out the pretravel could be bumped causing it to fire. Although, he did make that argument in addition to the main argument above ^.

This is kind of Occam's Razor to me. It's demonstrable that a partially pulled trigger could set up this condition. The other surmised conditions such as dirt, etc., have not been shown to be the problem with pistols claimed to have had UD. Neither having shown an UD with an untouched trigger.

 

[LFC911]

At lunch i pulled my P320 out of the safe and checked the play in the slide. Mine had a little and when i say a little i mean 5-10% of what the guy had in the video that made it go off 5x with a drywall screw in the trigger. His was sloppy. Regardless I'm taking it to the store today to see if i can get anything for it in trade. If so, I will trade it for a Glock or M&P 10. Not sure yet as i love S&W and the thought of a manual safety but they're very heavy compared to the Glock. Will report back with how it works out.

 

[Dan Carey]

The guy with the drywall screw is basically dishonest in his endeavor to manipulate the firing.

 

[TaperPin]

There are far more stories of holstered 320s going off than the ones that make headlines. The guys who get injured, lawyer up, get a settlement out of court, sign a non disclosure agreement, and cash a big check don’t make the news.

 

[Marty]

I’m following this; interested as to where this ends.

From my personal experience, my team of 12 each had a ~2017-18 era production M17/320 with a collective round count around 60k annually. We had a few FTFs but no NDs or ADs.

 

[Thegman]

The guy with the drywall screw is basically dishonest in his endeavor to manipulate the firing.

Seems so. Out of curiosity, I just messed with four striker fired pistols by staging the triggers in a similar way (no, I didn't drive a wood screw up into them) It seems that if done correctly, at least three could be coaxed into doing the same. Canik, Mossberg and Glock. Ruger LC9s seems like it can't. I doubt any of those can be manipulated quite as easily as his 320, but the fact his could do that, does not mean others can't if manipulated in the same (weird) way.

The Mossberg's slide is as loosey-goosey as his 320 and also moves when the trigger is pulled, like his 320. That is not terribly unusual in striker fired handguns and does not mean the pistol is unsafe. The fact he had one other pistol that didn't do that is also meaningless.

 

[mulveymo]

I also have an xten. I'm fairly sure that the fcu is different in the 10mm models than the 9mm, which would negate the concerns about desk pops (too soon?). Regardless, I don't carry a round in the chamber because it's for bear defense, and if one is so close that I wouldn't have time to draw and rack, I'm going for spray anyways.

 

[kpk]

I think the point that guy in the video is making is that the trigger bar in the lower is what actuates the striker in the bottom of the slide and the the release of the striker by the trigger bar is what fires the gun. I believe he is using the screw to make the trigger bar hold onto the striker with less "meat", simulating an out of spec part. Him taking out .75mm of travel is simulating either the striker or trigger bar being out of spec by .75mm, or each part being out of spec by .375mm, or gunk causing one or both parts to not fully return to position by .75mm or .375mm respectively. If one of those conditions were met and then lifting or twisting pressure separates the two parts further, the gun goes off. That was my understanding of his argument, not exclusively that someone taking out the pretravel could be bumped causing it to fire. Although, he did make that argument in addition to the main argument above ^.

that's how I took it as well. Less than 1mm in the tolerances resulting in such potentially catastrophic failures is not good. Obviously guys aren't walking around with a drywall screw in the trigger, but I thought it was pretty ingenious way of replicating dirt/debris/gunk/whatever.

I once had an AR trigger (from a very well known manufacturer) that would occasionally result in 3 or 4 shot bursts and then the trigger would lock up. After sending the trigger in they looked it over they found it was a few thousandths out of spec.

I can't even fathom a guess of how many of these are out there? I'm sure it's a tiny fraction of a percent that may have issues but not knowing which ones or why would make it hard to own one at this point.

 

[Bobbyboe]

This is a non sequitur strawman. You're apparently claiming something you can clearly demonstrate repeatably (the effects of Tylenol) is the same as something you cannot demonstrate at all (a 320 firing with zero input on the trigger).

The sig 320 firing without input has been demonstrated many, many times in the past few years. I’ve seen video of a police officer from my state searching a car and his holstered sig firing. What’s causing it, I don’t know, but you don’t see or hear of glocks doing it.