Short barrel 308?

[Ratbeetle]

I'm shooting 168 ELDMs at 2790 fps out of my wife's 16" 308 win. Not sure where one would think a 150 would be too slow past 150 fps.

Even a 168 TTSX is still 2000 fps to 400 yards which is still fast enough for even a TTSX to expand.

I've thought about even loading 165 grain Cutting edge MTH to around that 2800 fps mark as well if restricted to non-lead options.

That said the 168 ELDM load is still over 2000 fps to 500 yards and the 165 cutting edge wouldn't be that far behind it as the BCs are pretty close for that distance. For a zero to 500 yard setup it seems to work pretty well and recoil is manageable in the lightweight rifle.

That seems fast for 16" tube. Handloads? What powder?

I'm averaging 2712 with 165gr accubonds and 45.7 grains of Varget. Started getting pronounced ejector marks at 46.2 so I'm pretty much maxed out.

 

[amassi]

That seems fast for 16" tube. Handloads? What powder?

I'm averaging 2712 with 165gr accubonds and 45.7 grains of Varget. Started getting pronounced ejector marks at 46.2 so I'm pretty much maxed out.

I've found accubonds build pressure much faster than match bullets like the eld-m or vld.

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[Ratbeetle]

I've found accubonds build pressure much faster than match bullets like the eld-m or vld.

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Good to know. I have a box each of 168 and 178 eld-m but haven't done any load development with those yet.

I was very happy with the performance of the accubond on my pronghorn this year. Right at 300 yards and she never took a step. Just seemed a bit slow compared to other .308 loads I've worked up.

 

[Formidilosus]

The OP was asking about a deer rifle so I wasn't sure if anything posted was also relevant to elk. I'm still not sure if it is. I've only ever shot 1 elk with a rifle so pretty inexperienced there.

People try to make killing way more complicated than it is. Killing regardless of animal- deer, elk, moose, goat; is about destroying tissue. The more tissue destroyed, all else being equal, the faster things die. What tissue is destroyed is based on shot placement. How much tissue destroyed is based on impact velocity, and bullet construction. Those two things- impact velocity and bullet construction determine how deep, and how wide a wound channel will be. As long as penetration is deep enough to reach vital organs, than the wider a wound, the faster things die.
Using an appropriate bullet that will upset (expand/fragment) at whatever impact velocity you want (distance), than the bullet will upset and kill. Luke’s 168gr ELD-M will absolutely crush any elk walking from touching the barrel to 500+ yards.


Unfortunately there is NO home brewed way to test terminal ballistics. Ft-lbs energy and other associated BS is nothing but a distraction. Ft-lbs energy does not determine whether a bullet will expand, penetrate or blow up. Velocity alone will not tell you those things either. Bullets are engineered to work a certain way, in a certain velocity range- maximum and minimum, in properly calibrated tissue simulate, then good manufacturers confirm with field tests on animals.


Pick a good bullet that will work at lower velocities, and a short barrel 308 is fine.

 

[Formidilosus]

FYI-


For dudes using short barrels 308’s (or any length barrel 308), 155gr Lapua Scenars are excellent.

 

[kowalski]

Really wish I could use some lead, but California will not allow it. Gotta stick with copper type bullets.

 

[Dos Perros]

People try to make killing way more complicated than it is. Killing regardless of animal- deer, elk, moose, goat; is about destroying tissue. The more tissue destroyed, all else being equal, the faster things die. What tissue is destroyed is based on shot placement. How much tissue destroyed is based on impact velocity, and bullet construction. Those two things- impact velocity and bullet construction determine how deep, and how wide a wound channel will be. As long as penetration is deep enough to reach vital organs, than the wider a wound, the faster things die.
Using an appropriate bullet that will upset (expand/fragment) at whatever impact velocity you want (distance), than the bullet will upset and kill. Luke’s 168gr ELD-M will absolutely crush any elk walking from touching the barrel to 500+ yards.


Unfortunately there is NO home brewed way to test terminal ballistics. Ft-lbs energy and other associated BS is nothing but a distraction. Ft-lbs energy does not determine whether a bullet will expand, penetrate or blow up. Velocity alone will not tell you those things either. Bullets are engineered to work a certain way, in a certain velocity range- maximum and minimum, in properly calibrated tissue simulate, then good manufacturers confirm with field tests on animals.


Pick a good bullet that will work at lower velocities, and a short barrel 308 is fine.

I think the discrepancy is that, comparing elk and deer, I'm not sure if "all else being equal" is true. Mostly because elk are a lot bigger than deer. And additionally because they seem tougher pound for pound.

 

[amassi]

Really wish I could use some lead, but California will not allow it. Gotta stick with copper type bullets.

Check out hammer bullets

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[Formidilosus]

I think the discrepancy is that, comparing elk and deer, I'm not sure if "all else being equal" is true. Mostly because elk are a lot bigger than deer. And additionally because they seem tougher pound for pound.

What do you think the discrepancy of “all else being equal” is?


One might want more penetration for elk than for deer, but there is nothing magical about elk. I’ve shot, and seen shot elk with everything from a 223 to a 338L. None of them are magic. If used with appropriate bullets and those bullets intersect vitals the animals dies.

 

[Dos Perros]

What do you think the discrepancy of “all else being equal” is?


One might want more penetration for elk than for deer, but there is nothing magical about elk. I’ve shot, and seen shot elk with everything from a 223 to a 338L. None of them are magic. If used with appropriate bullets and those bullets intersect vitals the animals dies.

The discrepancy that, allegedly, it's tougher to kill and elk than a deer. As in it takes 'more.' More of what exactly I'm naive. But it seems plausible to say that what kills an elk will kill a deer, but not necessarily what kills a deer will kill an elk.

 

[Formidilosus]

The discrepancy that, allegedly, it's tougher to kill and elk than a deer. As in it takes 'more.' More of what exactly I'm naive. But it seems plausible to say that what kills an elk will kill a deer, but not necessarily what kills a deer will kill an elk.

Then how do people kill so many of both with pointed sticks?

 

[Dos Perros]

Then how do people kill so many of both with pointed sticks?

I would assume the efficacy rates are not identical.

 

[Formidilosus]

I would assume the efficacy rates are not identical.

Not arguing....



You’re assuming a lot. So, can you explain how what I wrote is incorrect? With terminal ballistic facts, not beliefs?

 

[TauPhi111]

I'd actually go the other way and step up to the 168 TTSX. It was designed for 308 and 30-06 velocities and I have been told in conversations with people at Barnes that it will expand down to 1500 or 1600 FPS and has a way better BC than the 130 or 150. You also won't lose that much velocity with a 308 in a 16 inch barrel - maybe 150 FPS or so. If you're worried that much about expansion and need to stay all copper, look to CEB or Hammer for bullets.

 

[Sacrvrrat72]

I am running factory 150 TTSX at 2825 in my 16” Kimber. I don’t think twice with anything under 400 yards. Don’t see a reason to run the 130’s. Would like to try the 168’s but don’t reload at this time.


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[sdupontjr]

20" shilen on Rem 700 running Nosler 125 BT at 3180 and 155 gr Palmas at 2766. Both are shoot about .625" at 250 yards

 

[Berger024]

I'll keep this thread alive. I have a rem700 I cut down to 16.5 and it shoots very, very well with Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr ELD-X in 308. Both deer I've taken at around 75 yds had horrible exit wounds. I don't think there was much expansion at all. Almost like I was shooting the Precision Match from Hornady.

I was lucky enough to stumble on some Barnes TTSX 150gr today and bought up a few boxes. Had anyone Chrono'ed the Barnes TTSX in the last 2 years since the thread died? Thanks.