Shoot2Hunt University

[Nine Banger]

@Bluumoon...

I enjoyed shooting and hunting too, but felt that what I missed not doing with the full class is what Form would have instructed us on immediately the next morning (wind) so I signed up for the full class next Summer.

With the Absaroka class it was great to immediately apply what I learned in the first 3 days, which was probably more like 7 learning days and validate it with the 411yd harvest.

Imagine how efficient we can be if we start hunting together in small groups with these new skills.

 

[Nine Banger]

Pretty special circumstance to have a person with the level of experience willing to help the average person.

Well said.

 

[eoperator]

Still hoping to see a s2hu class in the slower winter months in a warmer southernish state.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thank you to the staff who baked in the sun with us and the Gypsy King for taking the time.

Form is Tyson Fury? I knew it!

 

[Formidilosus]

Finished two back to back 0-600 yard hunting courses. I will do the review of both separately.

The first-

Conditions:

Hot and dry with medium to heavy winds blowing sand and dust on everything.

Participants:

16 participants that ranged from competent with a relatively high level of base skill, to nearly no skill whatsoever. Most people were above average in shooting by almost any external measure. Each shooter fired +/- 1,000 rounds of ammunition in 5 days.



This was the average body position of shooters when prone on day 1-


This was the “most zeroed” rifle on day one with no time limit on top, and timed shots on bottom (two separate drills)-


This was the worst-




Most were solidly in the middle, like this-



On the field shots on day one, first round hits rates from 140’ish yards on life size animal targets, to over 1,100 yards with most being in the 400-600 yard range; were about 10%.


Equipment:

The first class had very little issues with equipment.


Rifles:

Most shooters used Tikka T3’s, a couple R700 pattern custom actions.

Tikka: one Tikka had/has a sticky bolt near the rear of its travel. When putting lateral pressure on it, it wanted to “grab” or “drag”. Appeared to be something in the bolt raceway causing it as swapping bolts between rifles had no effect. Also had a couple of 223 mags that were old have clearance/fitmit issues with aftermarket stocks- minor, and the issues was solved quickly and easily.


Custom action issues: Bolt bind, and mag issues. One Bix N Andy Tacsport trigger locked up with sand.



@Dioni A said his trigger was getting gritty due to all the sand, so we took a large pinch of sand and poured it into his action and trigger. His trigger got to about 5-6lbs he said, but continued to function. After a number of cycles, it returned to near normal weight, and completely normal with a bit of water poured into it
We did the same to a custom R700 pattern action with Bix N Andy Tacsport trigger, it completely failed to fire at round 4, at which point it was tipped over and some debris fell out. It started mostly working after that, with intermittent issues- even after the water flush.


Scopes issues:

The vast majority of scopes used were some version of SWFA, or the Maven RS1.2. No issues with these scopes.

Zeiss V4 4-16x lost zero from the ride to class.

Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x M3 LR FFP (old model) lost zero from the ride to the class.


Not a reliability issue, however a couple of shooters swapped their NF scopes with Mil-XT or Mil-C reticles for other scopes (or swapped rifles) due to not being able to use the reticle in lower light and/or broken terrain.



Conclusion:

This class overall spent a bit more time on foundational gun handling, building positions and running the rifle correctly than some. By the end of the week, first round hit rates in the vitals of game animals from 100-1,100 yards were above 70% on average, and for some were above 80%.

 

[Formidilosus]

The second class.


Conditions:

First day was nice with medium wind. Second and third day were a rainy, sandy mess. Rest of the class was nice with very little wind.

Beginning of day 2. It got much wetter/sloppier-




Participants:

12 participants that ranged from competent with a relatively high level of base skill, to nearly no skill whatsoever. Most people were above average in shooting by almost any external measure. Each shooter fired +/- 700 rounds of ammunition in 5 days.



The average body position of shooters when prone on day 1 was much closer to ideal than class one, but not all the way.


This was the “most zeroed” rifle on day one with no time limit on top, and timed shots on bottom (two separate drills)-



I don’t have pictures of the worst, but most were not on paper- 8-9 inch groups (some equipment issues).




Most were solidly in the middle, like this-





On the field shots on day one, first round hits rates from 140’ish yards on life size animal targets, to over 1,100 yards with most being in the 400-600 yard range; were 10% or less, and most hits were wounding shots not vitals. Time to first shot was long for most, very long.



Equipment:

This class had many issues with equipment.


Rifles:

Most shooters used Tikka T3’s, a couple R700 pattern actions- Bergara and Christianson .

Tikka: One tikka 223 (call it #1) was ceracoated with a RokStok and had major issues. The mags sat too deep in the rifle and made the bolt drag on it. It destroyed the feedlips of 5-6 mags very quickly. We tried about everything to get it to work, and nothing really helped. A major problem for this rifle, and a second was BlackHills ammo that had sizing lube or case lube still on it that made the round stick in the magazines- more on that later.

A second S2H rental rifle also had mags issues. This rifle ran without issues the previous class for more than 1,000 rounds. There were some stock/part swapping after the first class, and this rifle was one. Not sure if it was the damaged mags, the Blackhills ammo, a tolerance issue with the swapped stock/bottom metal, or it was just possessed. The rifle will be sorted out.

Two shooters with Tikka CTR magazine rifles had constant issues with the rain and sand getting inside the mags. The CTR mags are much less reliable than TRG and AI mags, and significantly more susceptible to failure with debris. After the rain stopped one shooter was able to clean his mags out and stretch the springs with no further issues. The other shooter swapped to a standard Tikka bottom metal and mags and his rifle functioned correctly for the entire course.

The Tikka 223 mag system presents very little of the case head to the bolt for stripping the round from the magazine- dimensional tolerances for correct feeding are vital. As well, followers were tore up/scratched heavily from the sand and gravel on day 2 and 3, and contributed to issues- smoothing the followers up on a couple of mags helped. Any of the larger cartridges the mag presents much more case head to the bolt and reliability was/is excellent.

Tikka trigger replacement springs- don’t. We had two rifles whose triggers were loose and allowed the sear to release on bolt close- this is 3 rifles in 3 classes this year. A 2.75lb to 3lb trigger (factory spring) is an excellent weight for a field gun, lower than that accounts for fully half of the ND’s we have seen in the field. Furthermore, the rifles will/can become unsafe. The Finns are not “lawyered up”- they appreciate good triggers more than we do. The factory trigger and spring, with mechanical stop on the trigger bolt is how the rifle is designed and tested to be safe and reliable in all conditions. You screw with that by putting a lighter spring in, and you are opening the door wide open for ND’s and AD’s.


R700 pattern action issues: Bolt bind, and mag issues. The Bergara ran well generally, though it had bolt bind and IIRC some issues with feeding during the rain/sand/gravel days.
The first Christianson with DBM had multiple failures to feed/function for the one day it was used. The second Christianson (280 AI) with internal mag had severe issues with feeding the one day (last day) and 40-60 rounds it was used, though it and the shooter shot well out to 1,684 yards.


AI 223 pattern mags also had issues (not unusual), with feeding and debris.

I believe the only rifles that had zero feed/function issues during the two days of rain and gravel/sand were all the 308 case head Tikkas with factory or AI mags, a Sako 595 223 with Waters mags, a couple of 223 Tikkas including mine, and the Montana Rifle Company 308win eval rifle with AI mags.

Tikka’s functioning is normal, however the MRC 308win rifle is turning out to be a monster in feed and function. It was used heavily for the two classes and no amount of sand or debris caused even a whisper of a hiccup.

We had far more issues with 223 Tikka’s than I/we have ever seen- as in more issues in one day than all that I’ve ever seen combined. The vast majority were caused by one rifle. That rifle and the second is going to be looked over and the issues ran down.

Coating or painting the bolt and/or action does not help with feed and function of any rifle, especially Tikka’s- leave it as from the factory or nitride it.
The rental rifles were not owned by S2H, however from now all rental rifles will be shot for feed and function and will be assembled and left alone; as well any rifle that gets built and sent to classes on behalf of students from any company/shop- the owners will acknowledge that S2H is not apart of the rifles build/function.



Ammo issues:

One shooter brought Blackhills TMK ammo that had sizing or case lube left on it. It would cause the rounds to stick, or bind up at the feedlips and caused issues in every rifle tried. We took and cleaned by hand with acetone approximately 500 rounds which had the ammo functioning normally through mine and one other rifle, but the shooters rifle (#1 above) still would not feed and a loaner still had some issues.

We also had what we could determine was a 6.5cm round in a box of Hornady 308 win. We can not with 100% certainty say it was, but it seems to be. This isn’t unheard of with any brand, but is a reminder to check when loading rounds into magazines. The shooter felt very light recoil and the sound was odd- no damage to the rifle at all.





Suppressor issues:

There were a couple suppressor issues. One DD can made every rifle it was attached to a 3-4 MOA gun. A second DD can made a couple rifle’s groups open noticeably, but no issues on other rifles.



Scope issues:

The vast majority of scopes used were some version of SWFA, or the Maven RS1.2, with several NF NX8 and one ATACR No issues with these scopes.

One Maven RS1.2 took a massive hit when a rock ledge gave out and full body weight slammed it into the rock during the fall. It has quite a bit of scratches and dents, and rashes.

Bent objective-


Next day zero check-




Vortex Diamond Back HD 3-12x lost zero in less than 40 rounds, and continued to lose zero constantly. It was pulled after one day.


Not a scope, but a base/ring issue: a shooter using Tally Lightweight ring/base mounted correctly as per Tally’s instructions- was shooting 7-8 inch groups vertically. Inspection found that the scope was spilling (pencil mark). The user decided to replace the rings with UM ones instead of chasing and fighting the Tally’s. No farther issues after the replacement.



Of note, we had two very competent shooters using 223’s with mil/mil FFP scopes who had first round hit rates between 80-90% on day one during the classes, that switched and used MOA and BDC scopes for a lot of the training. The NF SHV and Trijicon Credo with MOA turrets and duplex reticles worked fine, however time to first round was much slower due to the requirement to look at a drop chart for the required elevation correction. As well, beyond 300 yards- while usable, hit rates were lower due to no windage correction holds on the reticle.
The BDC reticle had by far the lowest vital zone hit rate past 200 yards, dropping first round hits to 50’ish percent (or less) out to 400 yards, and 10-20% (or less) out to 500 yards. This was due having no clear way to hold for wind while holding over and between hash marks. Also, a couple of shots were widely off due to the power not being set correctly for the SFP reticle.

MOA is a compromise for quickly getting hits in field shooting- the first shooters response after using it for the first week (and beating almost all other shooters) was- MOA is dumb. The seconds thoughts were worse. BDC reticles continue to show to be poor performers for 1st round hits in novel field conditions, versus on a flat range and with sand bags. The second shooters statement who used the BDC reticle scope violates the forum rules.



Conclusion:

This class overall was a bit more mechanically competent or inclined and moved at a quicker than usual pace- they were one day ahead of most classes by day three.
Though they had less wind to deal with, by the end of the week, first round hit rates in the vitals of game animals from 100-800’ish yards were above 80% on average, and for some were nearly 90%.

 

[Huntnway]

I would describe myself as a novice shooter. I was shooting around 1,000 rounds a year out of a bolt action rifle, mostly prone from 100 to 1,000 yards. I shot two bucks last year, one at 330 yards and one at around 100 yards.

This class absolutely increased my shooting ability and knowledge level, as well as speeding up my shot process by a huge margin. I could blah blah about it but bottom line is I already recommended it to my sons.

I plan on doing the longer range class to continue to build knowledge and skills. I also am considering doing the same class again with my sons and I know I will learn if I do.

Food was damn good, accommodations were good enough. Company was great, had a lot of fun talking shit with the boys. Feel free to PM me with any specific questions.

 

[T_Widdy]

We had far more issues with 223 Tikka’s than I/we have ever seen- as in more issues in one day than all that I’ve ever seen combined. The vast majority were caused by one rifle. That rifle and the second is going to be looked over and the issues ran down.

Let us know what was wrong with these please.

 

[wind gypsy]

So it seems like waters is the best option for tikka 223 mags?

 

[Formidilosus]

Let us know what was wrong with these please.

Absolutely.

So it seems like waters is the best option for tikka 223 mags?

Haven’t used them so can not say. However, the first week with 14,000+ rounds or so fired saw almost no issues with factory mags- and that’s just one week.

 

[JollyRoger]

Awesome write ups!

I’m interested to hear more about the Tikka 223 issues. I’ve had my own 223 mag problems that completely disappeared with Waters mags. Also, not totally surprised by the BH ammo… I’ve got a batch of 77gr TMK that shot terrible

Also super interested to hear more about the DD suppressor. @Formidilosus Is that a Daniel Defense? Or Diligent Defense Enticer?

 

[Lawnboi]

Yea the waters mags are awesome. They can be disassembled easy enough as well when it’s time, and he will send extra springs, followers and hardware if needed.

 

[Murder Mittens]

Introduction:

I recently attended the June 17th-21st Shoot2Hunt course. I did not know what to expect as this was my first formal training session. I do not have an extensive background in firearms or the skillset to run/manipulate a long gun in a proficient manner. I would like to believe that I am an avid outdoorsman/hunter and somewhat competent in taking game animals. Hell, I have consumed knowledge off the Internet and YouTube. Well......This course was humbling to say the least!!!

Classmates:

They were all outstanding! We all came from different walks of life and most of us showed up to the course solo not knowing another soul there. By the end of the first day, we had all bonded and were moving towards a single mission/goal. BEING A BETTER RIFLEMAN

Cadre/Educators:

They all have a wealth of knowledge, and you can tell that they have a passion towards the subject matter that they are teaching. These guys are psychotic hunters and outdoorsman! While all teachers impart knowledge, great teachers ignite creativity, curiosity, integrity, and spark a lifelong passion in the student. THESE GUYS HAVE A PASSION FOR BUILDING COMPETENT RIFLEMAN. The best thing about them is that they are patient, and they won't bullshit you! They can also back up what they teach in the course which is rare. THESE GUYS CAN SHOOT

Area Of Operations:

The ranch was accommodating and scenic. It was the perfect place to attend a class like this due to the ranch, accommodations, and topography. The food and scenic views were outstanding! Due to the nature of the topography and atmospherics, it puts the shooters in real world hunting/shooting conditions.

Gear/Weapon Systems:

Everyone showed up with a myriad of gear and rifles. I highly recommend that you show up with a proofed rifle and pack system. If you are going to attend this course in the future, I would at least recommend a .223 for the flat range portion of the course. If you don't have one, they will have rifles that you can rent. I also highly recommend a suppressor. They also have those you can rent. There was a shooter on the line with a braked rifle the first day and the shooter adjacent to him wasn't enjoying life due to concussive brake blast in the adjacent shooters face. Once a suppressor was attached life was much more enjoyable for the adjacent shooter. When it comes to gear/kit adjust/modify it so that you are able to don and doff it expediently. Know where your consumables/most used tools are located and perform the repetitions until its burned into your muscle memory. I believe the whole class will change something about their gear or aquire a new piece pf gear after taking this course. The only thing I will say about RF binoculars is that they are very much a force multiplier. JUST GO OUT AND BUY THEM.

RIFLE/EQUIPMENT FAILURES:

I will not expound much on this particular subject because @Formidilosus has already done so and I frankly do not have the experience to do so. What I will say is that these guys are on top of it when it comes to diagnosing and fixing issues. They very much want to know what failed, why, and how to fix it. They were very helpful. One guy experienced a multitude of rifle, magazine, and ammunition failures during the class. He was shooting Tikkas which are historically reliable. I think this guy and his issues were just an outlier. I have no doubt that the rifles he was shooting will be addressed and fixed. The guy was a good sport about it though. He just cleared the malfunctions as they came and kept trucking along.

Course of Fire/Curriculum:

I won't give much away when it comes to this because I firmly believe that you should attend this course in person. It is very humbling, but at the same time it is very rewarding. These guys will teach you to kill on demand within 0-600 yards. They will teach you expedient ways to perform as a rifleman. You will learn a variety of things from how to setup a rifle, rifle/terrain management, gun/wind brackets, realistic positional shooting, terrain flow (aka: wind calling), unconventional shooting under pressed time, etc. That being said these skills we learned are perishable. These guys gave us the road map to become rifleman, but it is up to us to continue it on our own.

Conclusion:

I thoroughly enjoyed this course and met some outstanding people along the way. When I showed up, I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and missed every target during my evaluation. By the end of the course, I had expended close to 1,000 rounds of ammunition and made 16/20 hits on a game sized rock at 1,033 yards using a .223 without a spotter. We all improve at our pace, but more importantly dump the mental laziness and work your ass off at the class. I will be signing up for another course in the future! Thank you for a great experience....


P.S.

FORM,

I will never forget that special moment we shared together on the rock bluff. Thank you for teaching me how to shoot a gun.

Murder Mittens

 

[Formidilosus]

Also super interested to hear more about the DD suppressor. @Formidilosus Is that a Daniel Defense? Or Diligent Defense Enticer?

Diligent defense.

Yea the waters mags are awesome. They can be disassembled easy enough as well when it’s time, and he will send extra springs, followers and hardware if needed.

They will be tried next. A true 10 round mag will be beneficial.

 

[JollyRoger]

Diligent defense.




They will be tried next. A true 10 round mag will be beneficial.

Dang… I’m picking up an DD L Ti tomorrow. Wonder what that issue is about? So far my other suppressors show no negative impacts on group sizes

 

[IDVortex]

P.S.

FORM,

I will never forget that special moment we shared together on the rock bluff. Thank you for teaching me how to shoot a gun.

Murder Mittens

Is this a start of a Hallmark movie?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Dang… I’m picking up an DD L Ti tomorrow. Wonder what that issue is about? So far my other suppressors show no negative impacts on group sizes

It really doesn’t mean much. I have a 6CM that hates my AB 8 Stack my other rifles have zero issue with that suppressor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[JollyRoger]

It really doesn’t mean much. I have a 6CM that hates my AB 8 Stack my other rifles have zero issue with that suppressor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Good to know. I’ll give it a thorough testing on its intended hosts.

 

[IDVortex]

It really doesn’t mean much. I have a 6CM that hates my AB 8 Stack my other rifles have zero issue with that suppressor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Possible for s podcast maybe, but can there be conversation into why some cans can have more of a effect of poi then others? Especially for guys who are newer to using cans like I am?

 

[Tell]

The most important thing I can say about this class is that being able to attend it was the opportunity of a lifetime. I mean it. To anyone interested in the class - it really is something you will look back on as a pivotal point in your shooting ability.


I was in the first class, and I want to thank everyone who put so much effort into making it happen. I’ll reiterate what everyone else has said - the instructors are top notch world class shooters. Thankfully, they have a proven training method to help the rest of us improve, as well as the patience to teach it.

I left the class knowing that I have a LOOONG way to go to feel really competent as a shooter/hunter after seeing what’s possible. At the same time, I’d rate my ability now in the top 1% of the hunters I know. If you only ever compare yourself to those around you, you’ll never truly know where you stand in the bigger picture. Getting to see what really competent field shooters are like was an eye opener for me. And now when I’m hunting or shooting with my buddies, it’ll be an eye opener for them to see what kind of improvements can be made in a short amount of time.