Sherman calibers

[Bsnyder]

Has anyone built any of the sherman caliber?If so what calibers why,and how do you like them? main purpose is i have 2 .308's and an 06 that i cant part with, but we never hunt with them because we have better preforming calibers. So for the shermans what do you like about them or dislike. thanks in advance. Oh one thing i will add if i build i will base them for a hammer bullet.

 

[wind gypsy]

They are neat wildcats for sure. I see them as pretty niche offerings that fit well with certain constraints. For example, if you have a long action with standard bolt face are want to maximize performance without stepping up to a magnum, the shermans fit the bill. If you want to maximize performance with heaviest bullets for caliber in a short action with a magnum bolt face, the sherman short magnums are great.

If building from scratch, the juice is not worth the squeeze (fire forming or cost of formed brass) for me. There are more well designed cases with good factory brass than ever these days and the last thing i need is more time on the loading bench and in fireforming/load dev.

 

[tdot]

I have a 338 Sherman Short and a 6.5SS. I've only recently started the load development on the 338ss. I havent yet touched the 6.5ss.

I am obviously biased, but I think they are fantastic little cartridges. I wanted a short rifle with a short barrel. The SS cartridges seemed to lose very little performance from the decrease in barrel length. I also wanted a switch barrel, I didn't want to mess with the bolt, so needed 2 cartridges that had the same bolt face and used a short or medium action length.

There are alot of great factory offerings out there now. But I've always wanted to try a wildcat, so this was an easy entry into that world.

Headstamped brass sealed the deal for me. By all reports the ADG brass is lasting a very long time, 10 loads seems to be minimum, 15+ is common. Makes it more inexpensive then my 300wm Norma or even my 308 Lapua brass, in the long run.

I personally dont see where there are any substantially extra costs in running the Sherman's. Reamer rental is the same cost as anything my Smith would rent, I use the same Forster dies in almost all the cartridges I reload, brass might be cheaper per firing then a cartridge with lesser quality brass. I generally only do preliminary load work up on virgin brass, even in a SAAMI spec cartridge, so even there I'm not going thru a ton of extra components.

If there is truth to the longevity of case life and barrel life, then it may actually be cheaper to shoot the Sherman's then something like a 26 Nosler...

I keep seeing people talk about "inherent accuracy of a cartridge". I've never given much weight to those comments, but during fire forming I shot 2 bullets over several different random loads on the lower end of the scale. I shot multiple groups that were 0.25 to 0.35 MOA. With each combination of components. None of the guys at the range had seen anything quite like it. It certainly isnt me as a shooter or reloader... maybe it's the rifle. I dont know, but it was pretty awesome.

I'll also be loading these for Hammer bullets for hunting and whatever shoots for general practice/play.

 

[Bsnyder]

Well I think I will be taking a second hunt to the smith today, thank you so much I think you sealed the deal there! I was thinking of that 6mm Sherman for deer and antelope I do have an 06 and a Belgium browning 338 win mag action but that 338 is going 7mm stw

 

[Bsnyder]

Here is what you need to know about using that action. First, they are solid, and you can do a lot with them. The downside is cost. Remingtons are easy and cheap relatively speaking.

There are a couple of things you should consider. First, measure the existing mag box and see how long it is. If it is a standard box at 3.34", going to a 3.6" length is spendy. It requires a knowledgable gunsmith to machine it out and fit a new mag box/bottom metal. This has to be done right so it will feed properly and be safe. New hinged bottom metal is about $500 from Sunny Hill, Swift, or Dexter Arms. Blind mag would be cheaper.

Mauser bases actions have a slow lock time (except speed lock versions). So, they don't tend to be the best choice for a precision rifle or LR rifle. I don't recall that Browning every used a speed lock bolt. The standard bolt can be converted, but again, that adds cost, and if done wrong makes them unreliable.

I'd suggest sticking to 3.34" cartridges. Not that you can't go longer, but it will cost a few hundred to a grand to get it lengthened with the proper mag box or bottom metal, and then you are looking at barrel work.

I've done quite a few Mauser based rifles, and they are great actions. The downside is the machine work to get them where you want. I have machine tools, so it is just my time. If you have a smith do it, the costs can be up there. The last one I build was a .375 Ruger.

As is, it should fit into a stock made for the Interarms Mark X, or other commercial Mauser (Santa Barbara, Interarms, Charles Daly, etc.).

Jeremy

I have a 338 Sherman Short and a 6.5SS. I've only recently started the load development on the 338ss. I havent yet touched the 6.5ss.

I am obviously biased, but I think they are fantastic little cartridges. I wanted a short rifle with a short barrel. The SS cartridges seemed to lose very little performance from the decrease in barrel length. I also wanted a switch barrel, I didn't want to mess with the bolt, so needed 2 cartridges that had the same bolt face and used a short or medium action length.

There are alot of great factory offerings out there now. But I've always wanted to try a wildcat, so this was an easy entry into that world.

Headstamped brass sealed the deal for me. By all reports the ADG brass is lasting a very long time, 10 loads seems to be minimum, 15+ is common. Makes it more inexpensive then my 300wm Norma or even my 308 Lapua brass, in the long run.

I personally dont see where there are any substantially extra costs in running the Sherman's. Reamer rental is the same cost as anything my Smith would rent, I use the same Forster dies in almost all the cartridges I reload, brass might be cheaper per firing then a cartridge with lesser quality brass. I generally only do preliminary load work up on virgin brass, even in a SAAMI spec cartridge, so even there I'm not going thru a ton of extra components.

If there is truth to the longevity of case life and barrel life, then it may actually be cheaper to shoot the Sherman's then something like a 26 Nosler...

I keep seeing people talk about "inherent accuracy of a cartridge". I've never given much weight to those comments, but during fire forming I shot 2 bullets over several different random loads on the lower end of the scale. I shot multiple groups that were 0.25 to 0.35 MOA. With each combination of components. None of the guys at the range had seen anything quite like it. It certainly isnt me as a shooter or reloader... maybe it's the rifle. I dont know, but it was pretty awesome.

I'll also be loading these for Hammer bullets for hunting and whatever shoots for general practice/play.

I will love to keep in touch and see what grain you settle in on with the hammers I wasn’t even thinking 338 Sherman short but now I may be what velocity were you getting

 

[Wolf76]

While I will say Sherman cartridges are well designed, only you can determine if they are with the effort.
I'm a fairly advanced reloader and love ballistics. The "better performing" cartridges is one area that is interesting to me. I've noticed people often misuse ballistic coefficient and terminal ballistics. They are related, but not the same.
So, the big question is "what kind of performance increase are you looking for"?
For killing targets-high bc and accuracy are the main players.
For killing animals- accuracy, penetration, and energy transfer/destruction are top priorities.
What is lost in the which cartridge is better discussion, is the energy transfer aspect. Wider frontal areas transfer energy better and speed has the ability to compensate (to a decent degree) for smaller/lighter rounds.
What usually happens is people buy a custom barrel have it chambered by the Smith and it shoots great. The response is the cartridge is super accurate. But it's really the high quality barrel (about 90% of the accuracy comes from the barrel) and precision assembly that made it great.
IMO every whitetail hunter should have an accurate 308. This is a very versatile round and the most drama free cartridge I've ever loaded.
If you have the money and time, I'm sure you'll do fine with the SS or SST cartridges. I'll challenge the performance advantages vs the factory chamberings in real world terminal effects and distances.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[khuber84]

I purchased a reamer/go gauge and brass for 7 SS MAX hope to be sending all the components off the Nick @ straight jacket armory to get the build underway within the next week.

 

[tdot]

I will love to keep in touch and see what grain you settle in on with the hammers I wasn’t even thinking 338 Sherman short but now I may be what velocity were you getting

The first easy load to find was 213 Hammer Hunter at 2825 with H4895.

I have 2 other possible loads with Varget or iMR8028xbr that are closer to 2875, with maybe better accuracy. But I only had limited time and dont need any more paper in the freezer, so had to get out of the gun range and off for a hunt.

I only just started load development with the 235 Hammer, but saw just over 2700fps from Varget, I have more room in the case and havent hit pressure, so hoping for close to 2800. It is a newer nose design then the 235 on their website. BC should be quite a bit higher, so it'll be interesting to see how it compares.

 

[tdot]

While I will say Sherman cartridges are well designed, only you can determine if they are with the effort.
I'm a fairly advanced reloader and love ballistics. The "better performing" cartridges is one area that is interesting to me. I've noticed people often misuse ballistic coefficient and terminal ballistics. They are related, but not the same.
So, the big question is "what kind of performance increase are you looking for"?
For killing targets-high bc and accuracy are the main players.
For killing animals- accuracy, penetration, and energy transfer/destruction are top priorities.
What is lost in the which cartridge is better discussion, is the energy transfer aspect. Wider frontal areas transfer energy better and speed has the ability to compensate (to a decent degree) for smaller/lighter rounds.
What usually happens is people buy a custom barrel have it chambered by the Smith and it shoots great. The response is the cartridge is super accurate. But it's really the high quality barrel (about 90% of the accuracy comes from the barrel) and precision assembly that made it great.
IMO every whitetail hunter should have an accurate 308. This is a very versatile round and the most drama free cartridge I've ever loaded.
If you have the money and time, I'm sure you'll do fine with the SS or SST cartridges. I'll challenge the performance advantages vs the factory chamberings in real world terminal effects and distances.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Curious what factory round is matching the velocity of the Sherman Shorts, from a short action?

Heck, even from a Long Action, without burning 50% more powder?

I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Wolf76]

Completely fair question.
Let me take a cartridges to compare.
300 s.i/Sherman mag w/215 berger
82 grs H1000 yields 3050 fps
My 300 win mag
77 grs H1000 yields 2905 fps
All with the same length barrel. At what distance would the terminal effects be noticeably different?

The issue in comparing powder amounts is the difference in burn rates. Its a bit like comparing gas mileage of a V6 turbo vs a big block V8 - with both having roughly the same HP.
Faster powders use less grains, but have more"punch". Slower powders use more grains, but have more "push".
Every aspect of any cartridge design is a compromise in some way. SA Vs LA is a non argument for me. When I rack another shell, an extra 1" of bolt movement hasn't ever been noticed. And sometimes the added weight of the LA is welcomed due the recoil generated. There are LA cartridges that feed better than SA (300 WM vs 300 WSM). The short mags are sexier cartridges by far
Shorter/fatter cartridges tend to have an efficiency advantage of ~5-8%. Is it worth buying a semi niche cartridge to get this benefit? Only the buyer can decide.

The laws of physics haven't changed. Pressure moves bullets. To generate the same velocity, a faster powder needs to have a higher peak pressure and a slower powder needs to have a longer duration over 15k psi. There's no free lunch and there's no replacement for powder capacity.

Tdot- I know you shoot one of the Sherman cartridges. So, for you it made sense. As a fellow handloader, I rarely see any "real world" benefit from new cartridges. The biggest benefit for most people I've worked with is a high quality trigger and barrel. At the distance most deer are killed - arguing over SA vs LA or cartridge efficiency, is purely academic.

The risk with the Sherman cartridges is, where will they be in 10 years? Even big companies fail (30 TC, some of the rsaum + wsm didn't make it either). Will there ever be loaded ammo? We live in a great country that affords is these discussions.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Wiscgunner]

+1 for Sherman Short mags.

Loving my 7SS with 180 ELD-m's loaded light @ 2843fps with ES in single digits. Easy barrel swap on my Bighorn TL3 to add extra power for hunting. The 180's were extremely lethal on 3 caribou this fall in Alaska. Certainly could have used another cartridge but this fit an actual short action unlike the suam or wsm or others better suited to a medium action.

Certainly wildcats are not everyone's cup of tea. This being my first wildcat I too was hesitant but frankly my hesitation was unwarranted and unnecessary. Super easy to work with, ADG brass is excellent, easy to fine good nodes. Sherman community is very open with reloading help as well. Very happy I went this route.

Looking at a 300SM or 338Max next.

 

[Clownbuster]

I purchased a reamer/go gauge and brass for 7 SS MAX hope to be sending all the components off the Nick @ straight jacket armory to get the build underway within the next week.

Doesn't Nick have that reamer in stock?

 

[Bsnyder]

6.5 Sherman short barrel is here now waiting on my new bolt then it’s go time, ordered my barrel for the 7 Sherman max as well.

 

[khuber84]

Doesn't Nick have that reamer in stock?

I do believe so, he's using mine for this build however.

 

[Clownbuster]

Ah I see. Yeah they make pre-fit barrels in all the Sherman calibers, so they must have them.