Separate Day for Quads and Hammies

[mtnbound]

Curious for those lifters out there if anyone is splitting up quads and hamstrings into 2 days, then hitting both harder than if they were combined.

Issues I’m trying to fix and schedule I’m trying to build a routine around:

1) I bench more than I squat as of last week. Clearly my chest workout is working, I haven’t made gains on legs in well over a year. Wondering if creating 2 specialized leg days will help

2) Currently squat on leg day, then deadlift on back day. Think by doing them sequential days I screw whichever one happens the following day. Obviously same day will impact intensity

3) Dont want to squat or deadlift after Wednesday because it screws my Saturday hiking or hunting

4) Want to increase my work capacity hiking/hunting. 7 miles with light pack on trail or 20 pound pack for about 3-4 miles off trail wears me out, terrain is relatively steep and lots up and down, but certainly not mountain elevations

5) Lungs typically fail before my legs, but I’m assuming the more load they can handle the less blood flow I need to steal from my legs

6) Continuing to run needs to be prioritized over leg gains. Down 30 pounds this year, 8 more to go to get to my goal weight. Also, as referenced above, my lungs fail before my legs typically

Current Routine:

- M: Chest, 24 minute run
- T: Back (includes deadlift), 16 minute run
- W: Legs, walk 3 miles
- R: Shoulders, 16 minute run
- F: 24 minute run

Leg day consist of:

- Squat - 4x6 250
- Dumbbell Lunge - 3x8 60s (1 in each hand, 120 total)
- 1 legged RDL - 3x8 45
- Calf Raise - 3x10 100

Thinking about splitting it as follows:

- M: Quads, run 16 minutes
- T: Back, run 24 minutes
- W: Hammies and lower backrun 16 minutes
- R: Upper Back/lats, run 24 minutes
-F: run 24 minutes

On quad day my plan would be:

4x8 Squat
3x10 lunge
3x10 leg press
3x10 leg extension
3x10 calf raises

Hamstring day:

5x5 deadlift
3x8 1 legged rdl
3x8 Straight leg deadlift
3x8 hamstring curl
3x8 back extension

Any issues/gaps you see? Does it actually benefit me to split legs like this or am I playing with diminishing returns?

I would not recommend doing this. I would recommend something like this. Build your program in 3-week blocks. Focus on one Primary movement for the block, then switch movements for the next 3-week block.

Week 1 Lower body day
Primary movement- Barbell Squats 7 x 3 build to a heavy set of 3 but not to failure leave 2 reps in the tank.
Assistance exercise 1 - Lateral Lunge 3-4 x 10-12.
Assistance exercise 2 - Single Leg dumbel RDL 3-4 x 10-12.
Assistance exercise 3 - Banded Leg curls 100 reps.
Week 2 Lower body day Primary movement - Barbell Squats 6 x 3 build to a heavier set of 3 but not to failure leave 2 reps in the tank.
Repeat Assistance exercises with added weight or decreased rest between sets.
Week 3 Lower body day Primary movement - Barbell Squats 5 x 3 build to a heavier set of 3 but not to failure leave 1 rep in the tank.
Repeat Assistance exercises with added weight or decreased rest between sets.

Start new a block of training with the Primary movement being a Hinge movement.
Week 1 Lower body day
Primary movement- Trap bar deadlifts 7 x 3 build to a heavy set of 3 but not to failure leave 2 reps in the tank.
Assistance exercise 1 - Single leg press 3-4 x 10-12.
Assistance exercise 2 - Stiff-legged deadlift 3-4 x 10-12.
Assistance exercise 3 - Leg extension 100 reps in as few sets as possible.
Week 2 Lower body day Primary movement -Trap bar deadlifts 6 x 3 build to a heavier set of 3 but not to failure leave 2 reps in the tank.
Repeat Assistance exercises with added weight or decreased rest between sets.
Week 3 Lower body day Primary movement - Trap bar deadlifts 5 x 3 build to a heavier set of 3 but not to failure leave 1 rep in the tank.
Repeat Assistance exercises with added weight or decreased rest between sets.

 

[Poser]

Looks to me that you are trying to force a "bro split"/ hypertrophy/ bodybuilding type of thinking/template onto the idea of strength training. If your focus is strength for performance, you need to stop thinking about muscle groups as being the primary focus. You're not training the quads and the hamstrings. You're not even training "legs" and "back" and "chest". Reading your description kinda gave me a headache.

You're training the movement patterns: The squat, the press, the pull. Now, you may elect or need to do some accessory movements to drive progress on those primary lifts, but if you're thinking "quads" vs. "hamstrings", then you're setting yourself up for failure in terms of strength training for performance. Keep it brutally simple, stop thinking about muscle groups and focus on the big picture of making your body stronger. Unless you are doing a bunch of isolation exercises, which is not dedicated strength training, then there is no way to parse out muscles into sub groups. A properly performed deadlift uses every single muscle in the body. A properly performed backsquat uses every muscle in the body below the barbell. The bench press isn't a "chest" exercise, its developing the body's strength to apply pressing force. (and in terms of primary muscles, its using the triceps far more than it is the chest, but that's neither here nor there because a properly performed bench press also employs most of the muscles in the body if you set it up with proper tension and use leg drive).

I think you need to reconsider the way that you're thinking about training and then the question you are asking just dissolves.

 

[180ls1]

I would simply add another leg day and stop doing cardio after lifting legs. There is an interference effect when you do that. You likely should drop a cardio day all together as well.

 

[dreadi]

On average I lift twice a week for an hour. During the late summer/fall before late October I will load my pack with 60-70lbs of weight and walk the treadmill and stair stepper, and do box squats. What I do not do is separate muscle groups into separate days.

 

[fattycakez]

As others have alluded to, it's going to be hard to make squat gains if you only squat once a week. Adding a separate day for hamstrings isn't going to fix that. If you want to keep a body buildingesque routine and only lift monday-thursday, you should switch to PPL so you can at least hit legs twice a week every now and again.

Week 1:
M - Push
T - Pull
W - Legs
Th - Push

Week 2:
M- Pull
T - Legs
W - Push
Th - Pull

Week 3:
M - Legs
T - Push
W - Pull
Th - Legs

etc

Also, I don't know how long you've been running or what pace you're running at, but 24 minutes isn't that long. You should work on getting that up if you are struggling with cardio. Mixing in sprints and pace work with steady jogging will help.

 

[insanelupus]

Hire a good trainer!

Losing weight and losing body fat are two very different things with dramatically different results.

Unless you are contending with a significant injury, if your bench max is truly greater than your squat max, doing quads and hamstrings in the same day is not your problen.

Hire a good trainer! In the end you'll be time and money ahead as it relates to your priorities/goals.

 

[SWOHTR]

Looks to me that you are trying to force a "bro split"/ hypertrophy/ bodybuilding type of thinking/template onto the idea of strength training. If your focus is strength for performance, you need to stop thinking about muscle groups as being the primary focus. You're not training the quads and the hamstrings. You're not even training "legs" and "back" and "chest". Reading your description kinda gave me a headache.

You're training the movement patterns: The squat, the press, the pull. Now, you may elect or need to do some accessory movements to drive progress on those primary lifts, but if you're thinking "quads" vs. "hamstrings", then you're setting yourself up for failure in terms of strength training for performance. Keep it brutally simple, stop thinking about muscle groups and focus on the big picture of making your body stronger. Unless you are doing a bunch of isolation exercises, which is not dedicated strength training, then there is no way to parse out muscles into sub groups. A properly performed deadlift uses every single muscle in the body. A properly performed backsquat uses every muscle in the body below the barbell. The bench press isn't a "chest" exercise, its developing the body's strength to apply pressing force. (and in terms of primary muscles, its using the triceps far more than it is the chest, but that's neither here nor there because a properly performed bench press also employs most of the muscles in the body if you set it up with proper tension and use leg drive).

I think you need to reconsider the way that you're thinking about training and then the question you are asking just dissolves.

I always look forward to your answers! Your points are articulated very well.

To your point about "brutally simple," to the OP I'd recommend a 5/3/1 program variant. Years of consistently training Wendler's methods have made me as strong as I've ever been, while still allowing me to run albeit not as fast as I was. I don't look like Arnold (nor do I want to) but I can lift whatever I need to and do not doubt my abilities.

For reference, when I was running half marathons at a 7:00/mi pace, I couldn't swing a 53lb KB without risk of real injury. My squat was somewhere in the high-100 (lbs). Now, my running pace is slowed (8-10 min/mi) but my squat is in the low 400s and a 53lb KB is not an injry waiting to happen. It's awesome.

There's a quote to the effect of, "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and generally more useful, too."

All this to say, determine what works for you and prioritize accordingly.

 

[Jn78]

Seems like you have a lot going on. You have lost 30 pounds in less than a year - you are consistently in a caloric deficit, so your endurance, strength, and muscle mass gains will all be blunted. Your goals include both endurance and strength, which require different training approaches. However, you are lifting in almost solely in the 8ish rep range, which is ideal for muscle hypertrophy and is not optimized for improving strength and certainly doesn't do much for endurance. You do almost no training that targets zone 2 - I imagine your running is higher than zone 2. There is very little rest built in to your schedule. How much do you sleep? How tired are you? How many calories are you eating? How much protein? I bet you would start seeing improvements if you ate more and rested more, but you may not lose the rest of that weight.

 

[bigbassin]

Looks like a lot of recommendations along the lines of push/pull/legs. Which it’s something I’ve heard of, but having never looked into I figured was just similar to 3x5 that typically lead to regression for me. After digging into it, it looks to be a pretty reasonable program.

Also seems everyone is saying tone down reps, which is counterintuitive to what I would have thought to increase stamina.

Also some good post on cardio, I probably should hit that harder/add more variety there, and do some more research on a routine to follow there.

Also, I don't know how long you've been running or what pace you're running at, but 24 minutes isn't that long. You should work on getting that up if you are struggling with cardio. Mixing in sprints and pace work with steady jogging will help.

Turns into about 2.7 to 3 miles depending on the day. So not great distance or speed but definitely something I’m working on. Been running for about 2 months now, 24 minutes is where I’m currently at because that’s where my knees, ankles, and feet go completely numb and I lose form, not because I’m winded.

Seems like you have a lot going on. You have lost 30 pounds in less than a year - you are consistently in a caloric deficit, so your endurance, strength, and muscle mass gains will all be blunted. Your goals include both endurance and strength, which require different training approaches. However, you are lifting in almost solely in the 8ish rep range, which is ideal for muscle hypertrophy and is not optimized for improving strength and certainly doesn't do much for endurance. You do almost no training that targets zone 2 - I imagine your running is higher than zone 2. There is very little rest built in to your schedule. How much do you sleep? How tired are you? How many calories are you eating? How much protein? I bet you would start seeing improvements if you ate more and rested more, but you may not lose the rest of that weight.

I have thought once I hit my target weight and bump calories up, that should help my workouts in general.

Sleeping 5-7.5 hours a night during the week, work being the deciding factor depending on if it’s a 10 hour day or a 14 hour day, not including commute. Feel great on the days I sleep 6 or more (or if I only get 4 but I’m going hunting/fishing I’ll still feel great), basically brain dead for the first half of the day when I sleep less than 6.

Current weight is 202, eating 2050 calories/day.

220 grams of protein, 65 grams of carbs, 96 grams of fat.

 

[Jn78]

Looks like a lot of recommendations along the lines of push/pull/legs. Which it’s something I’ve heard of, but having never looked into I figured was just similar to 3x5 that typically lead to regression for me. After digging into it, it looks to be a pretty reasonable program.

Also seems everyone is saying tone down reps, which is counterintuitive to what I would have thought to increase stamina.

Also some good post on cardio, I probably should hit that harder/add more variety there, and do some more research on a routine to follow there.



Turns into about 2.7 to 3 miles depending on the day. So not great distance or speed but definitely something I’m working on. Been running for about 2 months now, 24 minutes is where I’m currently at because that’s where my knees, ankles, and feet go completely numb and I lose form, not because I’m winded.




I have thought once I hit my target weight and bump calories up, that should help my workouts in general.

Sleeping 5-7.5 hours a night during the week, work being the deciding factor depending on if it’s a 10 hour day or a 14 hour day, not including commute. Feel great on the days I sleep 6 or more (or if I only get 4 but I’m going hunting/fishing I’ll still feel great), basically brain dead for the first half of the day when I sleep less than 6.

Current weight is 202, eating 2050 calories/day.

220 grams of protein, 65 grams of carbs, 96 grams of fat.

Brother, you are running on empty, in my opinion.

 

[bigbassin]

Brother, you are running on empty, in my opinion.

Sleep, food, or both?

 

[Miflatlander91]

Sleep, food, or both?

Both 5 hours of sleep and 2000 calories your not going to make progress with strength or endurance.


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[Jn78]

Sleep, food, or both?

Both. Also, the training volume. Probably your job too - is it physically and/or mentally stressful?

I probably could have managed the demands you put on your body in my 20s, but I am in my late 40s now and I would be a wreck now. I would be getting sick all the time, grumpy, lethargic, etc.

It is not normal to feel brain-dead half the day. When I train as much as you are training, I sleep 8-9 hours a night and eat like 3,500-4,000 calories per day and I don't gain weight unless I force myself to eat to the point of discomfort.

Also, you really should be able to do an unweighted semi-easy 7 mile hike and feel fine afterwards. You are starving yourself and I bet your glycogen stores are getting depleted during your hikes. Do you feel ok for the first 45 minutes or so, but then start feeling lethargic and weak during the second half of your hike? Get home and just want to lay around? There is no doubt that sugar is bad when we are sitting around doing nothing, but when we are engaged in endurance activities, sugar is fuel that your body can almost immediately use. On your next hike, try taking in sugar after about half an hour after you start and every fifteen minutes after that. I think you will feel way better. Endurance athletes are taking in upwards of 120 grams of carbs per hour during high intensity endurance efforts and that is way too much to take during an average hike, but 60 grams per hour is not too much.

 

[bigbassin]

Both 5 hours of sleep and 2000 calories your not going to make progress with strength or endurance.


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The sleep is noticeable night and day difference, especially on cardio. I think with the weights I’m more or less consistent regardless of sleep, but running can effect my pace by a good bit, plus it’s a struggle to even maintain the slower pace.

Both. Also, the training volume. Probably your job too - is it physically and/or mentally stressful?

I probably could have managed the demands you put on your body in my 20s, but I am in my late 40s now and I would be a wreck now. I would be getting sick all the time, grumpy, lethargic, etc.

It is not normal to feel brain-dead half the day. When I train as much as you are training, I sleep 8-9 hours a night and eat like 3,500-4,000 calories per day and I don't gain weight unless I force myself to eat to the point of discomfort.

Also, you really should be able to do an unweighted semi-easy 7 mile hike and feel fine afterwards. You are starving yourself and I bet your glycogen stores are getting depleted during your hikes. Do you feel ok for the first 45 minutes or so, but then start feeling lethargic and weak during the second half of your hike? Get home and just want to lay around? There is no doubt that sugar is bad when we are sitting around doing nothing, but when we are engaged in endurance activities, sugar is fuel that your body can almost immediately use. On your next hike, try taking in sugar after about half an hour after you start and every fifteen minutes after that. I think you will feel way better. Endurance athletes are taking in upwards of 120 grams of carbs per hour during high intensity endurance efforts and that is way too much to take during an average hike, but 60 grams per hour is not too much.

Job hits both criteria’s. Busy days I’m running 5-6 crews on as many jobs and dealing with everything that comes with that (stress). On slow days, I’ll typically only have 1-2 crews with me so I’ll use that as a day to get after it working with the guys and will typically do 4-5 miles walking, shoveling concrete, humping forms, moving around rebar, etc.

Weak after 45 minutes is a good description, especially after running. It’s more like I just run out of energy first, not my cardio. Cardio will go second after continuing through that lack of energy. What would you recommend on the sugar, something like more fruit or something processed with a higher density.

 

[Jn78]

The sleep is noticeable night and day difference, especially on cardio. I think with the weights I’m more or less consistent regardless of sleep, but running can effect my pace by a good bit, plus it’s a struggle to even maintain the slower pace.



Job hits both criteria’s. Busy days I’m running 5-6 crews on as many jobs and dealing with everything that comes with that (stress). On slow days, I’ll typically only have 1-2 crews with me so I’ll use that as a day to get after it working with the guys and will typically do 4-5 miles walking, shoveling concrete, humping forms, moving around rebar, etc.

Weak after 45 minutes is a good description, especially after running. It’s more like I just run out of energy first, not my cardio. Cardio will go second after continuing through that lack of energy. What would you recommend on the sugar, something like more fruit or something processed with a higher density.

Man, even when you are not exercising, you exercising. And only 2k calories - you are eating the number of calories that sustain the metabolic rate of most inactive women. I bet if you bumped your calories, your body composition and strength would change dramatically. There is no way you have enough fuel to perform or grow muscle, and if you workout at the end of the day, you are probably glycogen depleted before you even start working out, so I would probably fuel up before a work out.

As far as the sugar, it depends. Maltodextrin does not taste very sweet. So, if you don't like sweet, you can go that route. Fructose is very sweet. Your body can only process so much sugar per hour, but different types of sugars are processed via different pathways, so if you want to take in A LOT of sugar - like a pro cyclist, some gels/gummies have a mix of sucrose and fructose. Probably no need for that for hiking unless you are on an all day pack-out. Also, if you just randomly decide to take 100 grams of sugar per hour over a few hours, you are probably going to run out of toilet paper. It is probably better to eat real foods vs. gummies/gels, but the gummies/gels are so convenient. Once a week I do a hike - 6.5 miles, 1,200 vertical feet. It takes about an hour and thirty five minutes. I don't need sugar during that, but I think I get more out of it if I eat. In an ideal world, i would eat something like this https://www.thatsitfruit.com/, fruit sauce packets, a banana, etc. When I am lazy, maybe it is just a sports drink or sour patch kids. During extended workouts - think all day pack-outs or 100 mile bike rides, I don't get much sugar from whole foods, because those tend to be pretty high in fiber and that can lead to gut distress.

The nutrition science involving glycogen depletion and sugar consumption during exercise has evolved dramatically over the past few years. Anecdotally, from my personal experience, I can say, without a doubt, I can do so much more work if I fuel myself. I recover better. I see more physical improvement over time.

 

[mtwarden]

@Poser post is worth rereading ; IMHO splits/body parts/etc, if the goal is strength, are no bueno.

I'm only lifting twice a week—I've bastardized Wendlers 5/3/1 by combining bench & squats and deadlifts & overhead press; the only supplemental lifts I'm doing are lunges, pull/chin-ups, farmer carries, dips and core. I'm in the gym maybe 45 minutes. While I'll never win a powerlifting meet, my strength in regards to moving in the mountains and when lucky, packing meat—I've found is more than sufficient.

Get a few (3-5) days of some Zone 2 training (hiking or running) and as hunting season nears, get some rucking in. I've abandoned my old rucking routine and have instead gone to Muscular Endurance (ME) routine. Good discussion of it on this site.

It doesn't have to be complicated.

 

[bigbassin]

Well a one month update here for anyone interested.

Deadlift is up 40 pounds, squat up 45 pounds, bench 5 pounds. I squat more than I bench now, endurance seems to be way improved while hiking and at work.

I’ve gone down 2 notches on belt size, but have gained 5 pounds (Currently 207). Between the mirror test, clothes fitting better, and workout gains, I feel good saying it’s mostly muscle.

I made a handful of changes based on what was posted on this thread:

1) Increased my daily calorie intake to 3500. About 50% of that increase was carbs, 25% protein, 25% fat.

2) Sleep is prioritized over running. So if I would get less than 7 hours of sleep by running, then I don’t run. Combined with No. 3 below, it basically means I’ve only ran twice in the last month. This one has been counterintuitive but my endurance has actually improved during recreational activities, I guess I just wasn’t allowing myself to recover previously.

3) If I walk more than 5 miles a day while at work I don’t run, if I walk more than 9 I don’t lift either. Basically don’t run anymore, 1-2 days a week I don’t lift.

4) 10 minutes of stretching per day. No clue if this contributed to strength gains/recovery or not but it at least didn’t hurt.

5) This one was counter to what was posted, but I did go the route of adding a back/hammie day and following the routine I posted.

I wanted to focus on sleep and nutrition first while not making too many changes to the workout to see what kind of impact changes 1-3 had. I’ll probably keep doing the workouts I’m currently doing until my squat stops improving, then try the 5x3x1 workout.

Hard to say because I did change my diet, stopped running, and added an extra day of lifting, but I feel the extra sleep has been the most important part.