Seek Outside Cimarron

[patty59]

Colonel00 do you have any pics of what you added to the stake loops to raise it up?

 

[luke moffat]

Here ya go man!!! I only have about 25-30 nights in my Cimarron mostly cause I have a pile of other shelters I try not to make jealous. But I tied the adjustable guy lines along the bottom before I even set it up as thats what I had on the GoLite SL-5 as it not only increases useable space but helps A LOT with condensation with more air circulation.

Why Kifaru and Seek outside don't offer adjustable guy lines to allow their tents to be pitched higher when conditions allow (which is 95% of the time IME) is beyond me. I guess it doesn't make that "item weight" line look as impressive.

 

[patty59]

Thanks Luke. I have one on the way and I think I'll be doing this immediately.

 

[5MilesBack]

Thank you. Do you have experience with any other tipi/shelters? Any recommendations that would accommodate someone of our height?

I actually bought and tried the BT-2, LBO with 3-piece vestibule, and the Cimarron. Sold all 3 of them. I also looked at a few others, but the same issues apply. It's that darn wall slope. You can see it well in Luke's pics, even set up with the gap.

The only reason I want/need a floorless shelter is to be able to run a stove inside, so that's the one thing that I base the use and fit on. A stove, and being able to fit at least 2 people comfortably and safely with that. Raising the entire shelter is great for ventilation and reducing condensation. However, raising the entire shelter is like inviting a wind tunnel along for the trip......seems like it's always windy. So......stake it close to the ground and use the stove for condensation control and heat.

Now to something that will work for us tall guys. The only thing I can think of would be a mid type of shelter with an extra square "skirt" that is sewn onto the bottom that is maybe 10-12" high, with guy lines at each vertical corner to stake those out, creating a more vertical wall. That would greatly increase the usable length and width of the shelter.

To make it even better, I would also sew in a screen or bug net material of the same size as the skirt, allowing you to either run the shelter with the sil material all the way to the ground, or tie it up leaving that bug net staked to the ground. That would provide all the ventilation one could want with the ability to also close it down and run the stove inside. They could do a similar set up near the top for extra ventilation as well. Ya, that would all add weight to the setup, but I'd rather carry a little extra weight and be comfortable.

 

[wasatchcomm]

this is what i am thinking i would do,try,
but like 5 mile said it would be nice to add a 4"-8" screen around the vertical side for ventilation or somewhere
im not opposed to pitching it high like luke showed as well. and maybe using a nest inside

View attachment 37372
View attachment 37373
http://www.wintertrekking.com/community/index.php?action=profile;u=177050;area=showposts;start=60
(halfway down the page is a modified pyramid tent)

 

[luke moffat]

I actually bought and tried the BT-2, LBO with 3-piece vestibule, and the Cimarron. Sold all 3 of them. I also looked at a few others, but the same issues apply. It's that darn wall slope. You can see it well in Luke's pics, even set up with the gap.

The only reason I want/need a floorless shelter is to be able to run a stove inside, so that's the one thing that I base the use and fit on. A stove, and being able to fit at least 2 people comfortably and safely with that. Raising the entire shelter is great for ventilation and reducing condensation. However, raising the entire shelter is like inviting a wind tunnel along for the trip......seems like it's always windy. So......stake it close to the ground and use the stove for condensation control and heat.

Now to something that will work for us tall guys. The only thing I can think of would be a mid type of shelter with an extra square "skirt" that is sewn onto the bottom that is maybe 10-12" high, with guy lines at each vertical corner to stake those out, creating a more vertical wall. That would greatly increase the usable length and width of the shelter.

To make it even better, I would also sew in a screen or bug net material of the same size as the skirt, allowing you to either run the shelter with the sil material all the way to the ground, or tie it up leaving that bug net staked to the ground. That would provide all the ventilation one could want with the ability to also close it down and run the stove inside. They could do a similar set up near the top for extra ventilation as well. Ya, that would all add weight to the setup, but I'd rather carry a little extra weight and be comfortable.

Actually pitching the tent off the ground with an air gap with a stove is just fine and I don't it to be an issue at all. Dries out gear in a hurry.

Did you ever actually try it with a stove or even pitched the tipi suspended?

 

[luke moffat]

this is what i am thinking i would do,try,
but like 5 mile said it would be nice to add a 4"-8" screen around the vertical side for ventilation or somewhere
im not opposed to pitching it high like luke showed as well. and maybe using a nest inside

View attachment 37372
View attachment 37373
http://www.wintertrekking.com/community/index.php?action=profile;u=177050;area=showposts;start=60
(halfway down the page is a modified pyramid tent)

Yes my wife and I use a nest in our Cimmaron often.

We run our sawtooth and our nemo pentalite both suspended off the ground and not pitched tight in most conditions.

The wind has to be very high for me to batten down the hatches. I mean if it was such a huge concern how would those guys that sleep under tarps ever live to tell the tale right?

 

[5MilesBack]

(halfway down the page is a modified pyramid tent)

That's exactly what I have in my mind........except with the bug screen also inside the silnylon for ventilation and still being snug to the ground. I generally don't absolutely need a stove for archery season so I haven't really pursued this option for a shelter yet. But would be great for some Oct and Nov jaunts with a stove and still having the flexibility with ventilation for warmer conditions. But I was thinking more like a 10x10.

 

[G5Archer]

Yes my wife and I use a nest in our Cimmaron often.

We run our sawtooth and our nemo pentalite both suspended off the ground and not pitched tight in most conditions.

The wind has to be very high for me to batten down the hatches. I mean if it was such a huge concern how would those guys that sleep under tarps ever live to tell the tale right?

Hey Luke what nest is that? Looking at getting one for my Cimarron.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[LBFowler]

I actually bought and tried the BT-2, LBO with 3-piece vestibule, and the Cimarron. Sold all 3 of them. I also looked at a few others, but the same issues apply. It's that darn wall slope. You can see it well in Luke's pics, even set up with the gap.

Now to something that will work for us tall guys. The only thing I can think of would be a mid type of shelter with an extra square "skirt" that is sewn onto the bottom that is maybe 10-12" high, with guy lines at each vertical corner to stake those out, creating a more vertical wall. That would greatly increase the usable length and width of the shelter.

I still don't get why you didn't fit in a cimarron, I'm 6'2" and you could fit 3 of me and a stove...

as for the wall/bell/side skirted tent, it has been discussed a fair amount and I've considered it for a long time but I keep coming back to it not making a ton of sense.
If you do the math it ends up weighing nearly the same to a similar tent with the fabric continuing out to the ground in the same line as the roof instead of the guy lines, but the wall tent has a more convoluted pitching ritual. The discussion is always about how much space you are gaining by having vertical walls when I really think the effect is psychological and you are in fact loosing the space that would be in line from roof to ground.

For instance, if you took a larger tipi (say a kifaru/SO 4 man) and hung fake 2' side walls inside it would feel like the tent you describe but it wouldn't have any real advantage over a plain 4-man tipi, you would just be losing the stuff-stashing area around the outer edge, and it would "feel" different.

TL;DR: just get a bigger tent.

 

[5MilesBack]

For instance, if you took a larger tipi (say a kifaru/SO 4 man) and hung fake 2' side walls inside it would feel like the tent you describe but it wouldn't have any real advantage over a plain 4-man tipi, you would just be losing the stuff-stashing area around the outer edge, and it would "feel" different.

You must have missed my post above about my CS UL4 which is much smaller dimension wise than the Cimarron at 80"x90", but has a LOT more room in it because of the more vertical walls. That's not psychological, that's just a fact. If I had a 10x10 footprint tent (i.e. 120"x120") with the vertical walls as shown in that attachment, it would have a huge interior with plenty of room for two or even three people with a stove and space for gear and wood. With that 18" vertical wall that guy did........you could literally put your pad right up against that wall. As is, you can't get within 18" of the staked out wall (to the ground) with that slope. So that's 36" lost right there.

 

[LBFowler]

You must have missed my post above about my CS UL4 which is much smaller dimension wise than the Cimarron at 80"x90", but has a LOT more room in it because of the more vertical walls. That's not psychological, that's just a fact. If I had a 10x10 footprint tent (i.e. 120"x120") with the vertical walls as shown in that attachment, it would have a huge interior with plenty of room for two or even three people with a stove and space for gear and wood. With that 18" vertical wall that guy did........you could literally put your pad right up against that wall. As is, you can't get within 18" of the staked out wall (to the ground) with that slope. So that's 36" lost right there.

Yes, comparing two tents of identical footprint, the one with the sidewalls would obviously have more space. I'm saying that if you took a tent with sidewalls, and merely extended the roof all the way to the ground you would have the same usable space, more less-usable space, a simpler setup, no guylines to trip on, and probably nearly identical weight. That's why I say just get a bigger mid/tipi.

I'm not comparing two tents of identical footprint, I am comparing two tents of identical height and roof angle (and by my theory, similar weight).

I think the guylines on a walled tent should be considered a "virtual footprint" and while it does have a bit more flexibility then an actual footprint, it would be much larger then the actual footprint of a similar non-walled tent.

 

[luke moffat]

You must have missed my post above about my CS UL4 which is much smaller dimension wise than the Cimarron at 80"x90", but has a LOT more room in it because of the more vertical walls. That's not psychological, that's just a fact. If I had a 10x10 footprint tent (i.e. 120"x120") with the vertical walls as shown in that attachment, it would have a huge interior with plenty of room for two or even three people with a stove and space for gear and wood. With that 18" vertical wall that guy did........you could literally put your pad right up against that wall. As is, you can't get within 18" of the staked out wall (to the ground) with that slope. So that's 36" lost right there.

I really feel if you would have tried pitching the tent with a bit of air gap it would have opened it up A LOT for you. Its an extremely rare occurance that I stake my floorless shelters tight to the ground. I just don't find the need to do so in all but the harshest conditions. That and being able to adjust the height serves for a better tent pitch on uneven ground as well.

As you can see in the last pic with the nest both Becca and I sleep on the one side and even closer to the wall behind the nest where the backpack is one could still sleep there as the angle to the shelter allows for you to be up near the edge to the shelter with it pitched just a few inches off the ground.

But it sounds like you are happy with what you have so we am I even trying to muddy the waters. Its a shame you didn't give it more of a chance with it pitched off the ground as I really don't like the tents pitched tight to the ground as it really does make them a lot smaller.

 

[colonel00]

Colonel00 do you have any pics of what you added to the stake loops to raise it up?

I probably over-engineered my solution compared to Luke's. I got some small webbing and put a tensioner on it and then sewed the webbing into a loop. Then that loop could be "tied" onto the stake loops. Then just string up some line with a loop in the end and you are good. You can kind of see it in the photo below. What I liked about this way is you are pulling in the direction you want the tent to go and you can tighten and loosen one handed. Again, probably over-engineered for what is really needed but it works.

 

[5MilesBack]

Its a shame you didn't give it more of a chance with it pitched off the ground as I really don't like the tents pitched tight to the ground as it really does make them a lot smaller.

Ya, obviously the higher you set a floorless shelter off the ground, the more room you have. The key is having more room.....while staked tight to the ground. I could use my tarp if I want air gaps all around it and save even more weight. But no.......I still don't have a floorless shelter that I'm happy with........except for my wall tent. I realize that the vast majority of folks in the world aren't too tall, so as with everything else......just have to go custom if we want it right.

 

[luke moffat]

Ya, obviously the higher you set a floorless shelter off the ground, the more room you have. The key is having more room.....while staked tight to the ground. I could use my tarp if I want air gaps all around it and save even more weight. But no.......I still don't have a floorless shelter that I'm happy with........except for my wall tent. I realize that the vast majority of folks in the world aren't too tall, so as with everything else......just have to go custom if we want it right.

Still think you should try it suspended off the ground. I have tarp camped and there is a LARGE difference in my opinion of how exposed between a square tarp style regardless of pitch and a tipi suspended a few inches. Plus you can't really run a stove efficectly under a tarp either.

Why not just run your copper spur in fast fly mode if not wanting to use a stove and save weight and have true side walls?

 

[5MilesBack]

Why not just run your copper spur in fast fly mode if not wanting to use a stove and save weight and have true side walls?

Like I said earlier........this floorless shelter was specifically for only with a stove and at least two people. I've been rifle hunting in many sub-zero seasons with blowing snow. The last thing I want is the shelter with gaps all around. Yes, the fast fly option works fine in nice weather.

 

[luke moffat]

Like I said earlier........this floorless shelter was specifically for only with a stove and at least two people. I've been rifle hunting in many sub-zero seasons with blowing snow. The last thing I want is the shelter with gaps all around. Yes, the fast fly option works fine in nice weather.

Ok gotcha....yeah we don't get snow up here or wind so we don't have to contend with things like that so I don't know how it might work for you in those situation....

 

[Slim Jim]

^^^^^ ouch

 

[Mike7]

It seems like you need a Luna 6, which would be a palace for 2 tall people and a stove, even if pitched right to the ground. If you pitch the corners on a pyramid and raise the pole just so the tent is barely taught, then you can pull the walls pretty much vertical.

I personally never pitch my pyramids all of the way to the ground on all 4 sides. That is the beauty of having the Line-loc 3's and cord at each stakeout point, you can quickly go around and adjust the gap higher or lower on different sides of the shelter as needed. Unless you are running a stove all night, even in cold weather, it is nice to have a small air gap somewhere around the perimeter. The wind speed down near the ground is typically not very fast, even in high winds, and a bivy sac and a down hood added to a sleeping bag can stop any small residual breeze from getting to you.

Perimeter netting hanging vertically down from the shelter edges does cut wind some (and does a really good job at knocking down any big rain drops blowing sideways). But I have found that the netting takes a beating if the only flat places to camp are covered by small bushes like huckleberries which tend to grab and tear the netting.