Seating depth - does it even matter?

[barehandlineman]

Can’t tomorrow but i will take you up on that.

 

[huntnful]

Can’t tomorrow but i will take you up on that.

 

[solarshooter]

Aside from missed wind call yes its .1 gun. Im 6 for 8 cold bore shots on paint can at 1315y with that gun. And like i said 10 shot 20 shot 30 shot is simply pointless to do. Doesn’t prove anything on a 1/4 moa gun or 10 moa gun. To do it correctly would take all day. Theres not a shooter on the planet that can make that environmental call good enough to shoot that small. Thats why 3 shots within few minutes apart is realistic. Then repeat it. I mean its a hunting gun? Wtf you need to shot 10 shots. Theres few people on here seen my shot groups at distance

At the end of the day, I don't actually want you to do anything differently, I've seen what your rifles can shoot and I'm convinced whatever you're doing is working!

But, I've personally found it very enlightening to realize that small tweaks and tuning is mostly a waste of time and components. It frees me to focus on the things that really matter, like technique, reliable aiming and shooting systems, consistent components, technique, and technique.

Now getting a gun to shoot is just a really quick drama free mystery free process, and I know that I'm the limiting factor on 95% of the rifle systems out there anyway, so I don't spend so much time worrying about the gun and the ammo.

 

[Packmansion]

A test that legitimately tests the performance of a load development and utilizes something like the overall charge weight length style load development would cost as much as a new barrel, take countless hours and would almost burn through most overbore chamberings. Most of the load development being done out there is based a convincing rumor by well intentioned individuals. Something I have grown in over the years is accountability through skepticism of my own beliefs. I have had too many instances where I believed so deeply what I saw, only later to realize it was based on someone else's beliefs, an illusion, coincidence etc. My current job forces me regularly to influence important decisions. How I word things I have to be cautious. I have to be accurate. I have a lot of influence over decision makers. This role has trained me into not trusting myself, I test what I believe before I say something. If I share a half baked belief, decision makers will spread that to others like gospel and I have already had to fight my own mistakes, literally explaining to people that what they heard and now are convinced of was because of me and I am now telling you I was wrong and spoke before a fully understood! Kind of funny. Never again.

So if it costs me $1000 and 40+ hours to accurately measure a node, no thanks! And to half ass it and spend anytime is even more of a waste. Therefore traditional load development makes absolutely no sense and im just here to help other shooters spend more time on things that make sense like practice.

If you dont believe me just look at what other reputable industry leaders like Litz and Hornady have to say...

 

[Nate4417]

Iv had some groups open up with seating depth and then close back up using Eric cortina’s .003 increments

 

[huntnful]

A test that legitimately tests the performance of a load development and utilizes something like the overall charge weight length style load development would cost as much as a new barrel, take countless hours and would almost burn through most overbore chamberings. Most of the load development being done out there is based a convincing rumor by well intentioned individuals. Something I have grown in over the years is accountability through skepticism of my own beliefs. I have had too many instances where I believed so deeply what I saw, only later to realize it was based on someone else's beliefs, an illusion, coincidence etc. My current job forces me regularly to influence important decisions. How I word things I have to be cautious. I have to be accurate. I have a lot of influence over decision makers. This role has trained me into not trusting myself, I test what I believe before I say something. If I share a half baked belief, decision makers will spread that to others like gospel and I have already had to fight my own mistakes, literally explaining to people that what they heard and now are convinced of was because of me and I am now telling you I was wrong and spoke before a fully understood! Kind of funny. Never again.

So if it costs me $1000 and 40+ hours to accurately measure a node, no thanks! And to half ass it and spend anytime is even more of a waste. Therefore traditional load development makes absolutely no sense and im just here to help other shooters spend more time on things that make sense like practice.

If you dont believe me just look at what other reputable industry leaders like Litz and Hornady have to say...

Im not familiar with Litz’ take on it? Is it that seating depth is totally irrelevant to any precision differences, or that small sample testing proves nothing, especially over minute changes?

 

[solarshooter]

Im not familiar with Litz’ take on it? Is it that seating depth is totally irrelevant to any precision differences, or that small sample testing proves nothing, especially over minute changes?

He goes deep on small sample testing, but focuses on tuners with his testing. He shows both that small sample testing is bogus, and that tuner adjustments don't make any observable impact on precision. However, I consider it nearly the same as saying that powder and seating depth tweaks don't alter precision since the theory says that tuners, seating depth, and powder charge are all ways of adjusting bullet exit time to coincide with quiescent periods of barrel harmonic motion. Others might disagree but that's my take.

For those who default to saying that any truly statistically robust test would be so time and money intensive that it's just not worth doing, I implore you to think more like an engineer and less like a physicist. You can do a DAMN good test with 100rds, and that is absolutely in the realm for all of us here to afford. And think about all the subsequent ammo it will save you once you determine you can stop "tuning"! Oh whoops, I spoiled the ending.

 

[solarshooter]

Iv had some groups open up with seating depth and then close back up using Eric cortina’s .003 increments

Have you ever done it twice and seen the same patterns?

 

[JGRaider]

I'll meet you in the morning, I got $100k that you shoot a 3 shot group bigger that 1.3" at 1300 yards. Come get that check

Sounds like a good way to make some cash.......I'm in for another $100k.

 

[207North]

What does @huntnful get when he fails to shoot .1?

 

[barehandlineman]

I never agreed to paying him anything he said hes got 100k. Now i know steve i wouldn’t take his money but doesnt mean i wont go out and do it. Has to be right day. As i said making right wind call at that distance matters a lot. So i want to do it when we dont have any wind.

 

[huntnful]

Miscommunication. The bets off .

 

[huntnful]

I was serious though lol.

 

[huntnful]

Also really don’t want to take away from the fact, that @barehandlineman does build exceptional guns, and they do shoot really ******* good. Especially his personal guns. Like stupid good. 5 shots touching all the time. But we’re good friends and talk a lot of shit. Also call each other out lol. But I wouldn’t honestly make that bet with him under 600 yards. I know that much lol.

I don’t even try and this is how mine shoot (I just shot this recently). Don’t know where the lands even are honestly, and a random charge of H1000 with 180 Berger’s. Those are going 3160fps. This ain’t a .223 lol.

6 shots

 

[barehandlineman]

Bets not off just what you are thinking is off.

 

[207North]

I think it would be interesting to do a blind test. Have @barehandlineman load 20 shots at his ideal seating depth. Load 20 more at both + and - .025 seating depth, do another 20 at + and - .050 seating depth.

Have somebody elso load the mags so he has no idea which load he is shooting. Shoot 5 20 shot groups and see if he can tell which load is his developed load.

Each group would have to be shot in similar conditions such as clean bore and 5 foulers.

It would take an entire afternoon, but would be solid information.

 

[solarshooter]

I think it would be interesting to do a blind test. Have @barehandlineman load 20 shots at his ideal seating depth. Load 20 more at both + and - .025 seating depth, do another 20 at + and - .050 seating depth.

Have somebody elso load the mags so he has no idea which load he is shooting. Shoot 5 20 shot groups and see if he can tell which load is his developed load.

Each group would have to be shot in similar conditions such as clean bore and 5 foulers.

It would take an entire afternoon, but would be solid information.

YES. Group size really isn't that important here. What's important is whether or not seating depth has a noticeable affect on precision.

 

[barehandlineman]

Heres best example i have readily available. I didnt shoot this i just guided a customer on his load work.

 

[Pharmseller]

Also really don’t want to take away from the fact, that @barehandlineman does build exceptional guns, and they do shoot really ******* good. Especially his personal guns. Like stupid good. 5 shots touching all the time. But we’re good friends and talk a lot of shit. Also call each other out lol. But I wouldn’t honestly make that bet with him under 600 yards. I know that much lol.

I don’t even try and this is how mine shoot (I just shot this recently). Don’t know where the lands even are honestly, and a random charge of H1000 with 180 Berger’s. Those are going 3160fps. This ain’t a .223 lol.

6 shots

View attachment 985574

Did you call the one at one o’clock as a flier?

 

[huntnful]

Did you call the one at one o’clock as a flier?

Yes sir. A shooting star blocked Uranus and my heart skipped a beat. It’s actually a .3 group, not a .4