Seating depth - does it even matter?

[solarshooter]

Id disagree the trend is changing of telling people to shoot more. If you take a gun shoot it multiple days of 3 shot groups and every time its a .1 gun is it not a .1 gun? Shooting more does nothing but challenge a barrels thermal expansion. Or environmental impact and shooters ability. I do load work a lot for my customers. And what ive done that works is find a powder node and seating node and make it repeat itself 3x. Most people dont even truly know what that even is. Or can even shoot the difference to find it. But its a thing if it wasnt real shooters would be preaching it doesnt matter. But benchrest shooters say otherwise and top gun builders in the world say otherwise. In reality a hunting rifle only needs to hold together past 3 rounds. I personally want my guns poi to say the same every cold bore shot and the next two. Ive done it over 100’s of rifles now.

Side note i know if i was a bullet manufacturer id be telling everyone your groups are to small too and you need bigger sample size. Kills two birds one stone. Sell more ammo and clears your name of having 1 moa ammo.

Also to be totally clear, I 100% respect the work that good gunsmiths and good shooters do and the results they produce. I just attribute it to top-notch equipment and components assembled perfectly and shot by extremely skilled shooters. Not the arcane ability to identify patterns and rhythms from a few holes in paper.

 

[barehandlineman]

I do this religiously and know many who do as well and its a thing. But most people cant shoot well enough to tell and or cant reload goof enough either or combination of the two. Now this is just my two cents do as you will but i do more shooting then most by a lot. And load work is something i offer to my customers when they get a gun. But ill say thid for something to think about A powder node will never move. Powder charge will. Powder charge and that node is not the same. Different lots ect and barrel erosion. Will change the speed which changes your node. Most people dont even know guns have multiple nodes. Me personally i load in the low node. Depending on temperature i pick which part i load in. But most guns have a very narrow high node. Now if your experienced enough to identify that node and know how to stay in it fine that works. But for me low node is always more accurate. When i do seating test i start in .009 increments and narrow it down. Most bergers have .006 window where they shoot much better then anywhere else. Me i go out and repeat every gun 3x and if itll do that 9/10 times itll do exactly that. Seating is just changing the harmonics of the barrel. Thats why a suppressor changes poi and why a tuner literally tunes. If it didnt matter those two things wouldnt change anything to a gun. Now this is just my two cents. You definitely dont need a .1 gun to go kill animals a .8 gun will do it just fine. If thats the accuracy goal i wouldnt do much at all for load work. Atleast with my guns that is. Most shoot .5 with anything down pipe.

 

[Packmansion]

Also to be totally clear, I 100% respect the work that good gunsmiths and good shooters do and the results they produce. I just attribute it to top-notch equipment and components assembled perfectly and shot by extremely skilled shooters. Not the arcane ability to identify patterns and rhythms from a few holes in paper.

I really appreciate you stepping in on this one. I almost further damaged my internet reputation.

 

[Packmansion]

I do this religiously and know many who do as well and its a thing. But most people cant shoot well enough to tell and or cant reload goof enough either or combination of the two. Now this is just my two cents do as you will but i do more shooting then most by a lot. And load work is something i offer to my customers when they get a gun. But ill say thid for something to think about A powder node will never move. Powder charge will. Powder charge and that node is not the same. Different lots ect and barrel erosion. Will change the speed which changes your node. Most people dont even know guns have multiple nodes. Me personally i load in the low node. Depending on temperature i pick which part i load in. But most guns have a very narrow high node. Now if your experienced enough to identify that node and know how to stay in it fine that works. But for me low node is always more accurate. When i do seating test i start in .009 increments and narrow it down. Most bergers have .006 window where they shoot much better then anywhere else. Me i go out and repeat every gun 3x and if itll do that 9/10 times itll do exactly that. Seating is just changing the harmonics of the barrel. Thats why a suppressor changes poi and why a tuner literally tunes. If it didnt matter those two things wouldnt change anything to a gun. Now this is just my two cents. You definitely dont need a .1 gun to go kill animals a .8 gun will do it just fine. If thats the accuracy goal i wouldnt do much at all for load work. Atleast with my guns that is. Most shoot .5 with anything down pipe.

 

[ddowning]

I do this religiously and know many who do as well and its a thing. But most people cant shoot well enough to tell and or cant reload goof enough either or combination of the two. Now this is just my two cents do as you will but i do more shooting then most by a lot. And load work is something i offer to my customers when they get a gun. But ill say thid for something to think about A powder node will never move. Powder charge will. Powder charge and that node is not the same. Different lots ect and barrel erosion. Will change the speed which changes your node. Most people dont even know guns have multiple nodes. Me personally i load in the low node. Depending on temperature i pick which part i load in. But most guns have a very narrow high node. Now if your experienced enough to identify that node and know how to stay in it fine that works. But for me low node is always more accurate. When i do seating test i start in .009 increments and narrow it down. Most bergers have .006 window where they shoot much better then anywhere else. Me i go out and repeat every gun 3x and if itll do that 9/10 times itll do exactly that. Seating is just changing the harmonics of the barrel. Thats why a suppressor changes poi and why a tuner literally tunes. If it didnt matter those two things wouldnt change anything to a gun. Now this is just my two cents. You definitely dont need a .1 gun to go kill animals a .8 gun will do it just fine. If thats the accuracy goal i wouldnt do much at all for load work. Atleast with my guns that is. Most shoot .5 with anything down pipe.

I agree that I can anecdotally see this as well. I stopped arguing it a long time ago. It is easier to see a small improvement in a gun that shoots small. In most of my hunting guns, I shoot Hornady, as I like the terminal performance and cost. Most of them, even with top brass and barrels will do 3/4 -1moa for 20 shots at distance. In match guns, I'll use Berger or Sierra and Berger almost always shoots tighter than Sierra with the exception of one of the first lots of rebated boattail dtacs that shot as good as most lots of Berger.

The problem, for me, is that I would rather hunt/shoot than do load development. Once I think I have a powder node, I just shoot a couple 10 shot groups at the longest yardage I have access to. If I am sub 1 moa with a hunting gun or sub 1/2 moa with a match gun, I am finished. It is good enough. I have done seating depth testing and seen a pattern where the node was around .006. The load held for a lot of shots and was significantly better than the bad ones I threw out with testing.

With random dispersion , even a lot of the rounds of a 1.5 moa system hit close to the middle. That means it is easy for guys that have never shot a true sub half moa system to blame the misses on themselves. Once you shoot a sub half moa gun across several prs matches and compare it to the results of a 1 moa gun across several matches, it becomes apparent that there is at least some advantage in having a gun that shoots small. Even that environment doesn't have many small targets.

This is going to be debated forever because you can see it anecdotally through a really precise system and thousands of rounds at small targets. It is unnoticeable at large targets at normal round counts for average hunters. Also, really good shooters and wind callers can cover it up on average size targets. Give a guy that's almost perfect a 1.5 moa system and a 2 moa target and he won't miss much despite the fact that he only has a .25 moa margin of error. Hand a novice a 1/2 moa system and he suddenly has a .75 moa margin of error to miss with. That will add significant hits to his score over only having .25 moa margin of error.

There are too many variables that effect this argument. When the bullets are only capable of shooting 1-1.5 moa there is a lot more noise in the system to cover up the .25 moa or so improvement you can see with nodes. When your system is so good that everything is half moa it is a much larger improvement as a percentage to knock .25 moa off the group.

Honestly, if you shoot a mild powder charge and have really good barrel blank, reamer/design, gunsmithing, brass, and bullets, just about everything shoots really well. I'm just reiterating what you said above here. For most people, with the exception of benchrest, f-class, and long range varminters, it will shoot better than good enough. To me it's the easy button where I don't need to monkey with load development. Just use good stuff and go shoot.

 

[huntnful]

Honestly, if you shoot a mild powder charge and have really good barrel blank, reamer/design, gunsmithing, brass, and bullets, just about everything shoots really well. I'm just reiterating what you said above here. For most people, with the exception of benchrest, f-class, and long range varminters, it will shoot better than good enough. To me it's the easy button where I don't need to monkey with load development. Just use good stuff and go shoot.

This is my exact approach. @barehandlineman builds my guns, and with good components and decent loading practices they shoot tons of bullet/powder combo in 5 shot .5’s with the very first test. That’s PLENTY good for me.

So I tell him tuning doesn’t matter hahaha. Only because he’s the one building my guns and why they shoot so effortlessly .

 

[justin davis]

I do this religiously and know many who do as well and its a thing. But most people cant shoot well enough to tell and or cant reload goof enough either or combination of the two. Now this is just my two cents do as you will but i do more shooting then most by a lot. And load work is something i offer to my customers when they get a gun. But ill say thid for something to think about A powder node will never move. Powder charge will. Powder charge and that node is not the same. Different lots ect and barrel erosion. Will change the speed which changes your node. Most people dont even know guns have multiple nodes. Me personally i load in the low node. Depending on temperature i pick which part i load in. But most guns have a very narrow high node. Now if your experienced enough to identify that node and know how to stay in it fine that works. But for me low node is always more accurate. When i do seating test i start in .009 increments and narrow it down. Most bergers have .006 window where they shoot much better then anywhere else. Me i go out and repeat every gun 3x and if itll do that 9/10 times itll do exactly that. Seating is just changing the harmonics of the barrel. Thats why a suppressor changes poi and why a tuner literally tunes. If it didnt matter those two things wouldnt change anything to a gun. Now this is just my two cents. You definitely dont need a .1 gun to go kill animals a .8 gun will do it just fine. If thats the accuracy goal i wouldnt do much at all for load work. Atleast with my guns that is. Most shoot .5 with anything down pipe.

This is probably better for a separate thread. But do you mind telling me how you go about finding the most accurate node?

 

[Nine Banger]

It feels like the node noticers are deflecting on shooter error and collect fake data.

 

[BBob]

It feels like the node noticers are deflecting on shooter error and collect fake data.

Actually I think it’s more like he said. Most people can’t shoot well enough and most don’t have good enough guns to ever see it. Your off the shelf Tilka probably isn’t going to cut it. So I agree to a point that chasing some of these reloading tweaks won’t and don’t work for the masses. I never see or very very rarely see anyone shoot with wind flags. That right there can be huge and pretty telling all on its own. The Zero Check thread is pretty telling as well.

 

[Packmansion]

Can someone lock this thread? Either you accept the data or you continue believing whatever magic you want to...

 

[huntnful]

Can someone lock this thread? Either you accept the data or you continue believing whatever magic you want to...

Oh come on now, it’s a fun topic lol. And hopefully more people might chime in with further tests due to seeing this thread.

Only reason I went out and did my test was because of this thread. Normally I don’t do anything. So it was good to see any differences of huge jumps. I’ve never jumped a bullet .100 before. My biased from lack of knowledge/testing made me think it would shoot 2 MOA. Definitely not the case.

 

[solarshooter]

I could (and have many times in the past) dig in to each and every point and observation and try to deconstruct or refute it. But instead, I would encourage believers of "nodes" and "tuning" to please try and prove their existence just like @huntnful did, with a minimum of 10rds per load (fired in whatever sequence/method you prefer). I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER seen evidence they exist, other than when tested a single time with 3-5rd groups (which I contend is random noise).

No believer that I know of has ever accepted this challenged and remained a believer.

Many believers REFUSE to test for themselves because they KNOW it's true and any test would just be a waste of time, right??

 

[Harvey_NW]

I do this religiously and know many who do as well and its a thing. But most people cant shoot well enough to tell and or cant reload goof enough either or combination of the two. Now this is just my two cents do as you will but i do more shooting then most by a lot. And load work is something i offer to my customers when they get a gun. But ill say thid for something to think about A powder node will never move. Powder charge will. Powder charge and that node is not the same. Different lots ect and barrel erosion. Will change the speed which changes your node. Most people dont even know guns have multiple nodes. Me personally i load in the low node. Depending on temperature i pick which part i load in. But most guns have a very narrow high node. Now if your experienced enough to identify that node and know how to stay in it fine that works. But for me low node is always more accurate. When i do seating test i start in .009 increments and narrow it down. Most bergers have .006 window where they shoot much better then anywhere else. Me i go out and repeat every gun 3x and if itll do that 9/10 times itll do exactly that. Seating is just changing the harmonics of the barrel. Thats why a suppressor changes poi and why a tuner literally tunes. If it didnt matter those two things wouldnt change anything to a gun. Now this is just my two cents. You definitely dont need a .1 gun to go kill animals a .8 gun will do it just fine. If thats the accuracy goal i wouldnt do much at all for load work. Atleast with my guns that is. Most shoot .5 with anything down pipe.

I know you build fantastic shooting rifles and can shoot extremely well yourself, but the proof of this concept does involve statistics, and any time anyone tests it with validity (like Keith Glasscock with his pro comp equipment, or Hornady with custom accuracy fixtures, Bryan Litz, etc) it doesn't hold water. It's also ironically why we're 21 pages deep on the topic without a single valid sample of proof.

This is probably better for a separate thread. But do you mind telling me how you go about finding the most accurate node?

It's fine here. But if I hear ladder test at 600 yards using 3 shots per charge looking for a node, I might lock it.. lol.

Can someone lock this thread? Either you accept the data or you continue believing whatever magic you want to...

NO! We're dyin on this hill, son!

 

[barehandlineman]

There’s no real way to prove it other then to do it. And i do it a lot i just dont care to go about proving it. And to do a test to have any accuracy needs to be having barrel cooled to the point of the first shot. I can tell you my personal gun hasnt shot over a .1 out past 1300y since i completed my load work. But its only had two strings of 3 shot rapid fires. Thermal expansion of a barrel hurts a rifle more then anything. So doing these 5-10-15-20 shot groups does nothing for a hunting rifle. 3 shots same hole and repeat it. Most importantly no poi shift. Most people cant shoot the difference so they never see it.

 

[barehandlineman]

This is probably better for a separate thread. But do you mind telling me how you go about finding the most accurate node?

I can pm you give you a good starting point