Scott Johnson & Steve House on non-gym training & heart zone training:

[mtwarden]

My own experience (and Steve House and his co-authors don't dispute it) is that to fully prepared for a mountain endeavor is best achieved with a blend of strength training and shorter high output exercise with a large dose of longer, lower intensity aerobic training.

Trail running is fine, but personally I think hiking is as good or better as it more closely mimics what you're going to be doing in the Fall. Add a pack by all means. If you can get this longer, lower intensity training in the mountains, better yet.

I do see folks that have blinders on in regards to longer aerobic stuff, but also see folks that think they can ignore strength training and higher intensity training- both are flawed.

 

[learl]

On the running vs pack hiking debate, are there any resources around wear and tear? Does running cause more wear and tear than weighted pack hiking? If there was a clear winner in the damage done to your body or if there were bigger set backs in recovery in one or the other, that would be interesting to know.

The Hunt Backcountry Podcast (Exo Mtn guys) recently re-ran an episode (230-How to Hike Heavy) where they talk with the above mentioned Mike Prevost. In that episode he states that the impact forces experienced while running are much higher than those experienced while rucking with a heavy load.

 

[*zap*]

Running generates more impact force than carrying weight in a pack while walking and trekking pole use will minimize the impact force when rucking but that also reduces the fitness effect on certain muscles/ligaments.

Edit: did not see the above post until after I posted, I agree with learl.

 

[FishTacos]

Thanks to you guys for this info and these posts, I didn't know the concept of an aerobic base or any of these details before i saw it here. Since this posted a few days ago, i shifted my training to being longer duration, light HR work - there seemed to be no injury risk versus what I was currently doing, so I took the plunge. I'm going to skew more towards weighted ruck hikes. The injury/ wear and tear is interesting, but i'm finding it hard to jog really slow- seems easier to hike with weight to keep the throttle back. I figured I could get started on this, and with the low risk of injury, i can just research it and figure out my specific plan without much downside at all- seems difficult to do it "wrong" in a catastrophic way. I've got some research rabbit holes to go down now, and many weeks of low HR and slow pace in my future. Anyways, thanks for sharing this info and these podcasts

 

[Cactus kid]

I forget which video it was, but one of the Uphill Athlete videos that is posted actually uses a sheep hunter packing out a ram as an example.

 

[Poser]

I watched this video. I have a backcountry snowboarding partner who does this type of training regularly leading up to the season, however, I watch it and think “that’s exactly what I do on scouting trips regularly throughout the summer and fall”

 

[Swan]

This is an awesome thread/discussion. I don’t have the chops to contribute much, other than observations from my experience climbing and ski mountaineering. The weight that you have to carry while hunting is no joke, and in my experience, sets it apart from climbing and bc skiing. So for me, it is critical that whatever my training is, it has to build mental toughness. I’ve noticed that if I’m not regularly traveling deep into the pain cave, I’ll come up with all sorts of excuses about why I don’t need to look over that next ridge, stay out until last light, etc. If my training stays focused on that, I’m much more successful in September. This thread makes me wonder about putting more thought into my training, however.

 

[FishTacos]

This thread makes me wonder about putting more thought into my training, however.

This thread helped me to rethink everything. I've been doing a combination of walks trying to keep the heart rate super low in the Z1 - Z2 range over 100 BPM but under 130 BPM every day to build an aerobic base. This is 2x a day, before work and after dinner. I'm cycling in a weighted pack 3 of those sessions- 50 lbs now because I can keep that in the right BPM threshold. Been going on over 10 days now, and legs are getting stronger, hard to tell on cardio- it sounds like those advancements aren't seen for 8-12 weeks, but I'm staying the course.

Seems to be good, though it's a totally different approach. It's the consistency that's making me feel like i'm putting in work, and the BPM data helps me feel like im doing something too. I definitely need to hack my brain into thinking i'm doing something solid because the feedback of a gruelling anaerobic workout is so much more instant and obvious.

I would buy the uphill athletes training plan and just do it, but the demands of hunting are different enough, where I have no clue which one to pick. Mountain running? Alpinist? We participate in a unique activity compared to those, so I'm just going off of aerobic base building and carrying a heavy pack.

If I had an aerobic base, was deficient in muscle or had more time, I'd probably put in some gym time, but i'm taking their advice and just logging as many hours as possible in the low heart rate zones, skipping the workouts and hoping the weighted pack carry's get me through

 

[FishTacos]

Not actual programs but follow the concepts. New Alpinism is a very good book.

Would you say read the book and design your own plan? Curious to hear if there is enough info in the book to do that confidently after you read it.

 

[Poser]

This thread helped me to rethink everything. I've been doing a combination of walks trying to keep the heart rate super low in the Z1 - Z2 range over 100 BPM but under 130 BPM every day to build an aerobic base. This is 2x a day, before work and after dinner. I'm cycling in a weighted pack 3 of those sessions- 50 lbs now because I can keep that in the right BPM threshold. Been going on over 10 days now, and legs are getting stronger, hard to tell on cardio- it sounds like those advancements aren't seen for 8-12 weeks, but I'm staying the course.

Seems to be good, though it's a totally different approach. It's the consistency that's making me feel like i'm putting in work, and the BPM data helps me feel like im doing something too. I definitely need to hack my brain into thinking i'm doing something solid because the feedback of a gruelling anaerobic workout is so much more instant and obvious.

I would buy the uphill athletes training plan and just do it, but the demands of hunting are different enough, where I have no clue which one to pick. Mountain running? Alpinist? We participate in a unique activity compared to those, so I'm just going off of aerobic base building and carrying a heavy pack.

If I had an aerobic base, was deficient in muscle or had more time, I'd probably put in some gym time, but i'm taking their advice and just logging as many hours as possible in the low heart rate zones, skipping the workouts and hoping the weighted pack carry's get me through

If I were going to do one of these, I’d go with Alpinist plan, however, I’d probably emphasize more strength to adjust for the increased weight. The training plan itself should get you ready for the muscular endurance that you’ll need.

 

[*zap*]

Would you say read the book and design your own plan? Curious to hear if there is enough info in the book to do that confidently after you read it.

The modern alpinism book offers plenty of information and concepts to design a training program. IMO, the first rule for training is 'listen to your body for volume and frequency determinations so really following some 'program' that does not include that is not something I would recommend.

 

[Poser]

The modern alpinism book offers plenty of information and concepts to design a training program. IMO, the first rule for training is 'listen to your body for volume and frequency determinations so really following some 'program' that does not include that is not something I would recommend.

To be fair, in order to “listen to your body”, you need a pretty extensive training background where you’ve learned how to grind. If I based my training on how I “feel”, for example, I’m sure I’d find an excuse to never have to squat heavy, that’s for sure. The vast majority of people lack the objectivity to create their own programming, even if they are coaches themselves. It’s kinda along the lines of saying “the best program is the one you actually follow”

I’m not saying it can’t be done, just that “listen to your body” doesn’t mean a whole lot since your body doesn’t want to do anything that is hard.

 

[*zap*]

Yes, self honesty is very important in life.

I have no problems grinding hard and listening to my body. You can simply rate your workouts a thru d after completing them and watch for c's and d's in a row to know its time to back off for a day or few. All that and more is covered in the book, along with periodization and the need for a periodic e-z week no matter what 'period' of training your in. How you should optimally 'feel' after workouts is also discussed.

So, I go hard or take it easier according to how I feel and pay attention to cns debilitation. For me that is better than some program made up by experts that says I do xyz on Monday and trh on Tuesday etc. If I do not feel worn down there is no need to avoid squats. If I am worn down I take some time off but that does not mean that I never work out again, that's not my reality.

I think the periodization of strength and aerobic/anaerobic endurance each being treated separately is also important for me. In other words being aware of how hard your working overall and phasing in or out peak training phases of each separately. Gym was closed for a while and now its been open for maybe 5 weeks so I am back to 75% volume of what I stopped at on strength, started @ 50% when it re-opened. I was doing more aerobic and anaerobic endurance when it was closed and with stating strength again regularly I phased back on that while I ramp up on strength. Still doing a minimum of 3 days a week for 1 hr. endurance thou.

@ my age I need to pay attention to all those things.......

 

[P Carter]

For those wondering about a plan, I’d get the book. It’s good, interesting, and readable. It discusses the components of a plan and has general guidelines on what the phases should look like, small examples of workouts in each phase, and a menu of strength training exercises. Someone who is interested and motivated should be able to piece something together pretty well.

 

[Poser]

This is an awesome thread/discussion. I don’t have the chops to contribute much, other than observations from my experience climbing and ski mountaineering. The weight that you have to carry while hunting is no joke, and in my experience, sets it apart from climbing and bc skiing. So for me, it is critical that whatever my training is, it has to build mental toughness. I’ve noticed that if I’m not regularly traveling deep into the pain cave, I’ll come up with all sorts of excuses about why I don’t need to look over that next ridge, stay out until last light, etc. If my training stays focused on that, I’m much more successful in September. This thread makes me wonder about putting more thought into my training, however.

Funny SkiMo story for you.

I once went on a backcountry skiing/boarding date with a gal who is a competitive SkiMo racer. Everything was kind of wrong from the get go. My skins needed waxing and I kept slipping and sliding on the switchbacks up. Unsurprisingly, she was faster than me on the uphill and had to wait a bit on me at the top. As I was finally doing my splitboard change over, she was rolling her eyes. She ended up taking an indirect descent which has a bunch of rollers on it which meant that I had to do multiple changeovers. Meanwhile, she was able to strip her skins and be ready to downhill ski in just about 20 seconds. There was no 2nd date.... She was too skinny for my tastes anyway.

 

[Cactus kid]

I would buy the uphill athletes training plan and just do it, but the demands of hunting are different enough, where I have no clue which one to pick. Mountain running? Alpinist? We participate in a unique activity compared to those, so I'm just going off of aerobic base building and carrying a heavy pack.

I set up a training consultation with either Johnson or House right before the whole 'vid thing happend- He recommended the mountaineering programs for what we do.

 

[Swan]

Funny SkiMo story for you.

I once went on a backcountry skiing/boarding date with a gal who is a competitive SkiMo racer. Everything was kind of wrong from the get go. My skins needed waxing and I kept slipping and sliding on the switchbacks up. Unsurprisingly, she was faster than me on the uphill and had to wait a bit on me at the top. As I was finally doing my splitboard change over, she was rolling her eyes. She ended up taking an indirect descent which has a bunch of rollers on it which meant that I had to do multiple changeovers. Meanwhile, she was able to strip her skins and be ready to downhill ski in just about 20 seconds. There was no 2nd date.... She was too skinny for my tastes anyway.

Doomed from the get go with the split board! Those racers have it dialed.

 

[IanCOLO]

I personally liked the newer book better, “Training for the Uphill Athlete”. Much of the same information as New Alpinism but felt it was more organized and better explained, and “Uphill Athlete” book has more information on diet that will help with understanding how diet carries over to performance and recovery. I spent the two previous summers training for ultra-marathons (and hunting) and have been very satisfied with their training methodology. I probably spent more time doing HIIT and circuit training workouts than they recommend but as long as I kept close to a 3 or 4:1 ratio of time doing high-intensity/strength trading to the low intensity, long duration training it seemed to work rather optimally. I was usually training 8-12 hours a week also, which is pretty doable especially if you are having one weekend day that a 4+ hour low-intensity, sport specific day. Depending on what I did with my diet I could maintain my body weight and muscle or lose some pretty easily. I never really felt like I lost much strength even when I lost 10 lbs the first summer, and I was definitely below where my weight range should be, I do feel I had a harder time recovering at the lower body weight though. Even at the lower body weight I was able to pack out a small/average sized bear (assume between 75-100lbs of quarters and hide) in one trip of 3.5 miles, and that was actually in the middle of my three weeks between races.

I never completely abandoned hiking with a pack for running when I was training and if I was training for strictly hunting I would still run some but try to hike with a pack the majority of the time. I think doing strength workouts are crucial for maintaining range of motion and maintaining strength through that range of motion even if you are training specifically for endurance activities.

My biggest takeaways from the books and my own training are:

1. Make 75% or so of your training time doing your zone 1 or 2 training ( preferably doing your sport specific training, like hiking with a moderately loaded pack on) and for sure do as much training on your feet as you can.

2. Definitely keep strength training and high intensity training in your program.

3. Add as much strength as you can without adding body weight or affecting your endurance work.

4. Work as much as you can on turning your body into a fat-burner. It will make you more efficient. Diet is part of it, training in right heart rate zones is probably a bigger part of it.

5. Train year round.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mtwarden]

^ good summary and a solid formula for mountain "sports"

 

[FishTacos]

It's been about a year since I first found this thread and wanted to pop back in and say thanks to OP and everyone who posted replies. This thread presented information that I didn't know and am benefiting from. I took the plunge into researching and doing some experimenting with a real focus on getting into those lower heart rates. I'm at a point much beyond where I was last year and still have plenty of time to make some aerobic base improvements before season starts.

I learned more and more through research and feedback as I started training, I'd say the training is the most important part. It is not realistic to assume that everyone needs the same things or is starting from the same place. Training in low zones and working to become fat adapted through diet changes and low heart rate work seem to be important pillars to build around, from my perspective. I was able to make progress in those areas and it means I can do things much easier than I could before training with this focus.

When I found this thread I started out by focusing on rucking. I did that for a few months. Season hit and it was essentially rucking everyday I could get out. I didn't track those "work outs" because the focus is hunting. I'm sure it was plenty of zone 1+2 intermixed with spikes into higher zones throughout. Rucking was solid but I had the feeling I could make bigger improvements in aerobic base building with a more dedicated approach to base building, instead of what seemed to be sub optimal base building through rucking. That's not what I was thinking initially, I thought i would avoid running and focus on specific training of rucking but it became clear to me that there might be a lot of aerobic base building available if I focused on that and ditched the weighted pack for work outs.

As a result, I've recently been focused on running. I'm now starting to ruck more now as season approaches because thats what hunting is-I don't know how you guys do it, but i'm not running when i'm hunting very often and if I am, i've often got my pack on.

As for weight lifting I am more concerned that the anaerobic nature of lifting will cause delays or sub optimal development of my aerobic base and so I haven't been trying to be an animal in the weight room. That's not going to be the case for other people so they should do what they need to do. Thanks again for this thread and feedback, it helped me a lot to get my program dialed in, and i'm looking forward to this season where I should be in solid condition to get as far back into the backcountry as is required, with plenty of conditioning to get back with a heavy pack.