Scope mounting loctite or not?

[omicron1792]

I had a scope damaged by me using loctite.

My gunsmith said because it acts as a lubricant it makes you over tighten using your torque wrench. Then it locks up at the tighter setting, which can damage the scope.

So, no more loctite on the scope ring portion for me.

 

[Macintosh]

So lets get this straight.

Manufacturers ship their rings with a L-wrench, and oiled screws.

Oiled screws lubricate and create “wet torque” clamping force.

No manufacturer that I am aware of suggests degreasing the oiled screws in order to get dry torque values.

Very few, if any, people can use a L-wrench and quantify the amount of force applied.

So, manufacturers are supplying us with equipment that results in a wet torque AND results in an unquantified amount of force.

But it’s a problem to use threadlocker with a torque wrench because wet torque is too high.

Sorry, but that’s inconsistent enough to clearly be a big fat load of horse hooey.

 

[omicron1792]

So lets get this straight.

Manufacturers ship their rings with a L-wrench, and oiled screws.

Oiled screws lubricate and create “wet torque” clamping force.

No manufacturer that I am aware of suggests degreasing the oiled screws in order to get dry torque values.

Very few, if any, people can use a L-wrench and quantify the amount of force applied.

So, manufacturers are supplying us with equipment that results in a wet torque AND results in an unquantified amount of force.

But it’s a problem to use threadlocker with a torque wrench because wet torque is too high.

Sorry, but that’s inconsistent enough to clearly be a big fat load of horse hooey.

Yet pretty much every scope manufacturer and ring manufacturer say don’t use loctite on the scope ring portion. So there is that. They wouldn’t add that for no reason.

I don’t think they ship the screws “greased.” I think they have a bit of something on them to prevent them from being rusty when you get them.

I have never heard one time to grease a ring screw before this thread. I have heard not to use loctite 1000 times.

All info is not created equal.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yet pretty much every scope manufacturer and ring manufacturer say don’t use loctite on the scope ring portion. So there is that. They wouldn’t add that for no reason.

You genuinely believe ring manufactures have done rigorous testing to know what is required to hold a scope and rings together through long term rough use?

 

[2-Stix]

degreese, lock tight, and witness marks...always.

for those that know...there might be a ROAL Reaper in the tread. Lol.

 

[CampSmith]

Roal lol. If you know u know. I personally own multiple rifles from many different manufacturers. Some produce their own rings and some dont. I wouldn't take all ring manufacturers word for it but some manufacturers have tremendous track records of quality, durability and are very knowledgeable about what works for their products. I would take their advice. Like he said all info isn't created equal, lol.

 

[omicron1792]

You genuinely believe ring manufactures have done rigorous testing to know what is required to hold a scope and rings together through long term rough use?

Some of the high end ones. Sure they have. Why would they not recommend loctite If it worked better?

Even more so, why would they mention it at all if there wasn’t evidence to the contrary?

 

[SDHNTR]

I had a scope damaged by me using loctite.

My gunsmith said because it acts as a lubricant it makes you over tighten using your torque wrench. Then it locks up at the tighter setting, which can damage the scope.

So, no more loctite on the scope ring portion for me.

Let me guess, Leupold, Vortex or Swarovski?

 

[omicron1792]

Let me guess, Leupold, Vortex or Swarovski?

Steiner

 

[SDHNTR]

Some of the high end ones. Sure they have. Why would they not recommend loctite If it worked better?

Even more so, why would they mention it at all is there wasn’t evidence to the contrary?

You would probably be surprised to learn that some of the highest end scope manufactures make the worst scopes.

 

[SDHNTR]

Some of the high end ones. Sure they have. Why would they not recommend loctite If it worked better?

Even more so, why would they mention it at all if there wasn’t evidence to the contrary?

They don’t recommend it because they know they make paper thin, wimpy, scope tubes that can’t handle 18 inch pound of torque

 

[omicron1792]

You would probably be surprised to learn that some of the highest end scope manufactures make the worst scopes.

Nah. I’ve had them all. Some good some bad

 

[omicron1792]

They don’t recommend it because they know they make paper thin, wimpy, scope tubes that can’t handle 18 inch pound of torque

You think Steiner makes wimpy scopes?

 

[SDHNTR]

You think Steiner makes wimpy scopes?

I don’t know enough about that particular brand to comment.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Loctite on everything.

If the trigger is adjustable, that gets a shot of super glue on the head after it is set.

 

[Formidilosus]

Some of the high end ones. Sure they have. Why would they not recommend loctite If it worked better?

Who? Which brands exactly do you believe have done rigorous testing and experimentation to determine best practices for holding zero with scopes?

Even more so, why would they mention it at all if there wasn’t evidence to the contrary?

They have no evidence. Call Tally and ask how any rounds they fired during the initial testing and development of the Lightweights, how much or what type of different torque settings they tried. If they did any long term (1,000 plus round) zero retention checks, or if they checked zero retention from drops and impacts. Then do the same for Vortex (oops- they don’t make theirs), NF (though they did test), Seekins, Warne, Sphur, etc.

Companies are not conducting legitimate testing. The last company “engineer” that I asked why the torque value was set where it was said- “that’s what everyone states for torque, we went a little less just so there weren’t issue”. No testing, no checking what the screws or bolts will take, no figuring out the clamping force, no live fire testing- just what everyone else has theirs at.

Ring manufactures don’t want complaints about marked up scope tubes, and scope manufactures don’t want their tubes marked up. Both suggest very light torque because not only do they not have legit evidence for what is required to hold a scope for zero retention long term and heavy use- they don’t care. They only care about customer complaints.

 

[omicron1792]

Who? Which brands exactly do you believe have done rigorous testing and experimentation to determine best practices for holding zero with scopes?





They have no evidence. Call Tally and ask how any rounds they fired during the initial testing and development of the Lightweights, how much or what type of different torque settings they tried. If they did any long term (1,000 plus round) zero retention checks, or if they checked zero retention from drops and impacts. Then do the same for Vortex (oops- they make theirs), NF (though they did test), Seekins, Warne, Sphur, etc.

Companies are not conducting legitimate testing. The last company “engineer” that I asked why the torque value was set where it was said- “that’s what everyone states for torque, we went a little less just so there weren’t issue”. No testing, no checking what the screws or bolts will take, no figuring out the clamping force, no live fire testing- just what everyone else has theirs at.

Ring manufactures don’t want complaints about marked up scope tubes, and scope manufactures don’t want their tubes marked up. Both suggest very light torque because not only do they not have legit evidence for what is required to hold a scope for zero retention long term and heavy use- they don’t care. They only care about customer complaints.

Ok

So if a cheap product like loctite kept their screws tight, wouldn’t they get less complaints? Seems like it would make their recommendation of low torque values even easier. “Hey, don’t over tighten, and throw some loctite on it.”


I can’t see how loctite would cause any more scope marking. I imagine they get as many or more complaints on scopes losing zero by coming loose.

Not only do they not recommend it, they go out of their way to say don’t use it.

I agree with almost all you say above. But that doesn’t answer the why they recommend not using loctite. My gunsmith, the best in my city, gave me a reason that makes sense to me.

 

[Kurts86]

Part of the problem with manufactures specifying torque is they are supplying a single component in an assembly and they have to assume weakest mating parts from other manufacturers of which they have no control over. Then the decision to add thread locker changes that value by 20% further lowering their worst case scenario torque value. They have to cover their ass and that drives more decisions that you would ever care to know about.

Manufacturers are also cheaping out on fasteners without pre applied thread locker because $$$. Hardware cost a fair bit of money and it’s the first thing the purchasing agent tasked with reducing total product cost by 3% per year indefinitely goes after. Whether or not the corporate structure has engineers approve these bad decisions is an open question. I’ve seen it both ways.

Screws typically function best at 80% of their yield strength so the margin between doesn’t clamp, perfect and snapped off screw head is tighter than people realize. Intentionality aiming low is always going to be the answer because they have to assume the lowest knowledge customer.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok

So if a cheap product like loctite kept their screws tight, wouldn’t they get less complaints? Seems like it would make their recommendation of low torque values even easier. “Hey, don’t over tighten, and throw some loctite on it.”

No- have you ever contact a ring company because your scope lost zero or a screw was loose? Bet not.

Not only do they not recommend it, they go out of their way to say don’t use it.

I agree with almost all you say above. But that doesn’t answer the why they recommend not using loctite. My gunsmith, the best in my city, gave me a reason that makes sense to me.

Then he’s ignorant. The K value of blue Loctite is less than .2. It’s less than the oil that screws come with from the factory. Put simply, if you take the screws out of the package and torque to 18in-lbs for instance that is a higher clamping force, then if you take those same screws, degrease them, Loctite them, and use 18 in-lbs.

Literally exactly opposite of what you, your gunsmith, and most manufacturers state. The reason that they are wrong is because they have no idea what they are talking about- they’re just repeating what they’ve been told. Every screw, in almost every field- airplanes, spaceships, turbines, etc, etc on things that cannot loosen are not only required to be loctite, lots specify a safety wire.

 

[CampSmith]

In my experience dealing with reputable brands over the years. Using their recommended torque specs and installation instructions. I've had not just good but great results. I hunt hard and don't baby any of my equipment. Whether my gun is in the bed of my truck on the front of my atv, in and out of a treestand or on a deer drive through some of the nastiest terrain imaginable in the country. No open fields or canyons near me lol. Takin bumps drops and everything in between. They continue to perform year after year. If the info they provided was incorrect or not tested think my results would be much different.