Scope Leveling; Instruction that ran counter to everything I thought I knew

[JohnJohnson]

Form...I get it. You are the best and everyone here says so, so I can't dispute anything you might opine on. Besides, I don't dispute most of what you opine on either.

I don't think it's a personal thing. Your perception of the military and its snipers just seems like it's been shaped by Hollywood rather than reality. For purely long range shooting skill, not anything else that snipers do, I'd take a top 30% PRS/NRL Hunter competitor over 99% of US military snipers. I'm sure there are a couple of exceptions to that rule, such as military snipers who compete at a high level in PRS/NRL Hunter. But generally when snipers show up to competitions, they do badly for awhile until they improve their skillsets by competing and training for competitions. Phillip Velayo has talked a lot about it (he's a former scout sniper and scout sniper instructor).

 

[Hnthrdr]

Who is best trained at long range accuracy know-how and tactics than Ranger snipers? Likely, nobody. Makes perfect sense, if you take the time to think about it and forget about your opinion. Enough said.

I led a sniper section in the army. Snipers are good shots and more intelligent than your average Joe. They have to pass sniper school. This does not make them gospel on shooting though. Also all soldiers who go through sniper school earn the sniper identifier. So being an army ranger who is sniper qualified is different than being a ranger who is a sniper on a recce team. Honestly I think SF or CAG is going to have the best snipers out there. And yes they often do training at private shooting schools. My unit never had funds for that, but buddies who are SF snipers are going to do 1-2 week long schools that are in Tx, NM, Utah that have no formal association with the mil

 

[SwiftShot]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

Long Range shooting and sniper are not all the same. Army sniper school is 5 weeks and yes it teaches long range it teaches a lot about being undetected, movement to and from target ect. It does mean they are way better than average shooter, but that is just the beginning.
I once was sent to assist a unit. All had the scroll, we boarded a plane and jumped. The where all reservist cooks. It was an airborne chow hall.
I say this because the schools are the basics, it doesn't make them a door kicker.

 

[JohnJohnson]

My unit never had funds for that, but buddies who are SF snipers are going to do 1-2 week long schools that are in Tx, NM, Utah that have no formal association with the mil

Sounds like Rifles Only. They do a LOT of teaching military guys and have for decades.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form...I get it. You are the best and everyone here says so, so I can't dispute anything you might opine on. Besides, I don't dispute most of what you opine on either.

When you can’t answer simple and straightforward questions, fall back on fallacies.

The answer is that you have no reason other than what you’ve been told, to believe anything about military snipers or military units.

 

[WaWox]

One of my neighbors had been to sniper school and it sounded like he spent about 5h lying in tall grass for every bullet he got to shoot, .. at least in his telling, over 5 weeks he probably shot no more than five 20 round boxes of ammo.

Which makes sense. The sniper skill set is about getting somewhere undetected and then taking a long shot. The former is way more time intensive to teach and learn.

 

[Molon Labe]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

Oh my god. I don’t know where to start. So much wrong.

Just google “rifle cant and effect on POI” or something. I guarantee 100%. That it matters and you should not be shooting a rifle at distance with a cant to the rifle. IF you want your POI to be on target.

I have seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds shot out of precision rifles from positional shooting. I have witnessed many a mid pack shooter have issues with a non level rifle causing POI shifting. Checking my level is the very first thing I do in my shot sequence after I close the bolt. The top .1% of the shooters in this country only break rounds on level rifles…there is a reason for it.

The instructor the OP had was incorrect. It happens. But you can’t deny or explain away errors by saying someone is an “expert” because they took some sniper school classes. Hahaha.

 

[WaWox]

Oh my god. I don’t know where to start. So much wrong.

Just google “rifle cant and effect on POI” or something. I guarantee 100%. That it matters and you should not be shooting a rifle at distance with a cant to the rifle. IF you want your POI to be on target.

I have seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds shot out of precision rifles from positional shooting. I have witnessed many a mid pack shooter have issues with a non level rifle causing POI shifting. Checking my level is the very first thing I do in my shot sequence after I close the bolt. The top .1% of the shooters in this country only break rounds on level rifles…there is a reason for it.

The instructor the OP had was incorrect. It happens. But you can’t deny or explain away errors by saying someone is an “expert” because they took some sniper school classes. Hahaha.

I am still not sure I understand why.

Let's say scope is level. Does canted rifle matter ?

Can you explain why? I really don't understand why rotating the barrel would have an impact on POI (after zeroing etc )

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I am still not sure I understand why.

Let's say scope is level. Does canted rifle matter ?

Can you explain why? I really don't understand why rotating the barrel would have an impact on POI (after zeroing etc )

Because the scope and the barrel are no longer on the same plane and a bullet still rises when it is fired from a barrel regardless of how much it is canted.

 

[Dave0317]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

I don’t have the strac handy, but from memory, I think you would be measuring most sniper section’s yearly ammo in the hundreds, maybe low 1000’s.

Nowhere near 200/week. Not to mention, like others have said, shooting is a very small part of what they do. They need to meet a certain standard, that’s it. There is about 1,000 other skills and tasks that occupy much of their training time.

 

[WaWox]

Because the scope and the barrel are no longer on the same plane and a bullet still rises when it is fired from a barrel regardless of how much it is canted.

If I rotate the barrel inside the action, does that affect windage or elevation dialing? [Outside of the inate spin that a barrel puts a round on that may lead to left right drift, but that's something you take care of by zeroing ]

Maybe I don't understand what is meant by a canted rifle

 

[Molon Labe]

I am still not sure I understand why.

Let's say scope is level. Does canted rifle matter ?

Can you explain why? I really don't understand why rotating the barrel would have an impact on POI (after zeroing etc )

Yeah no worries.
So think of the angle between the scope and bore. Think extreme it will be easier to picture.

Hold your hands in front of you. One hand parallel to the ground and the other angled upwards at 45 degrees directly under your level hand. The level hand is your scope and angled hand is the bore.

Now rotate your hands 90 degrees. Look at the launch angle for your “bore” hand.

If you were to send a projectile from your bore hand fingers it will cross the parallel hand at one point. But the path of the “bullet” will just continue to keep going further to the angled side. Gravity will pull it down but further and from your point of aim.

So if you are canted right you will typically have a right POI. If you are canted left you will have left POI. It becomes more pronounced as you move further out in distance. Most people don’t shoot very far so they don’t see the shift.

But if you launch a projectile with your original hand position it will cross the parallel hand and then as gravity pulls your projectile down it will cross the hand again but much further from you. This shows how a leveled/plumb rifle would perform correctly.

Does that clear it up a bit? Hope this helps! I’ll check back later if you need anymore clarification.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I don’t have the strac handy, but from memory, I think you would be measuring most sniper section’s yearly ammo in the hundreds, maybe low 1000’s.

Nowhere near 200/week. Not to mention, like others have said, shooting is a very small part of what they do. They need to meet a certain standard, that’s it. There is about 1,000 other skills and tasks that occupy much of their training time.

Truth, I think in the 1.5 years I led the section we actually held two range days with the snipers. Now we were just your standard everyday infantry, but there is a mountain of regular army bs you have to do plus we were slotted to deploy as executive protection and force protection so we focused on that. We brought all our sniper systems with us, but they never left the connex in country.

 

[Dave0317]

I am still not sure I understand why.

Let's say scope is level. Does canted rifle matter ?

Can you explain why? I really don't understand why rotating the barrel would have an impact on POI (after zeroing etc )

its not so much the cant, a canted rifle can still be zeroed at a particular distance. It’s the fact that when canted, the scope is no longer on a vertical line above the bore.

For it to work, you would almost have to have a parallel zero type arrangement, like with a IR laser on an AR. If they coincide, they end up crossing further away.

A small enough cant, maybe wouldn’t be noticed, but I would avoid for the reasons Form mentioned.

Additionally, this may not matter to most, but if you end up shooting left handed, that cant is now going to be off in the wrong direction.

 

[WaWox]

But aren't you rotating both hands in this example? I am thinking the barrel is round [= rotational symmetric] so it doesn't matter which direction you rotate a barrel (unless you add a left right diagonal movement but that's not canted rifle / something you can detect with a level!) As long as the non rotationally symmetric scope is level ?

 

[Dave0317]

Truth, I think in the 1.5 years I led the section we actually held two range days with the snipers. Now we were just your standard everyday infantry, but there is a mountain of regular army bs you have to do plus we were slotted to deploy as executive protection and force protection so we focused on that. We brought all our sniper systems with us, but they never left the connex in country.

Yep, it’s a whole nother off topic tangent I could go off on.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

But aren't you rotating both hands in this example? I am thinking the barrel is round [= rotational symmetric] so it doesn't matter which direction you rotate a barrel (unless you add a left right diagonal movement but that's not canted rifle / something you can detect with a level!) As long as the non rotationally symmetric scope is level ?

You will get an initial zero just fine. However, once you start to dial or hold for long distance shots, the bullet will go left or right depending on the angle of the cant.

 

[Formidilosus]

But aren't you rotating both hands in this example? I am thinking the barrel is round [= rotational symmetric] so it doesn't matter which direction you rotate a barrel (unless you add a left right diagonal movement but that's not canted rifle / something you can detect with a level!) As long as the non rotationally symmetric scope is level ?

They’re talking about the scope reticle being rotated relative to the rifle. When a scope reticle is vertical to the rifle- the rifles bore is directly united the scope. But, when the reticle is canted relative to the rifle, then the scope is leveled with the earth, the rifles bore is now slightly to one side- it is not directly under the scope.

 

[JohnJohnson]

But aren't you rotating both hands in this example? I am thinking the barrel is round [= rotational symmetric] so it doesn't matter which direction you rotate a barrel (unless you add a left right diagonal movement but that's not canted rifle / something you can detect with a level!) As long as the non rotationally symmetric scope is level ?

A lot of the "mathematical" protests in here sound oddly similar people who think a higher height over bore means the effects of canting your rifle are magnified in any appreciable way. I'm not advocating for doing it this way, because of the stuff Form mentioned about how different positions/clothing will probably make you address the rifle differently. But the objections about how it's mathematically unsound don't seem to have any real basis.

I'll post a picture of a relevant section on this from a SH article on scope leveling.

And for a side note, since this topic feels pretty related to it, I'll also post the thread on here about height over bore and its effects on cant.

fact or fiction: higher scope height increases cant error (and how much)

I am sure this has been discussed, but seems to have some myth surrounding it, so figured I'd start a new thread to ask specifically. I can find a number of articles on the topic of cant, but few that quantify the error including scope height as a variable. rifle cant causes error at long...

rokslide.com

 

[Molon Labe]

But aren't you rotating both hands in this example? I am thinking the barrel is round [= rotational symmetric] so it doesn't matter which direction you rotate a barrel (unless you add a left right diagonal movement but that's not canted rifle / something you can detect with a level!) As long as the non rotationally symmetric scope is level ?

Yes. Rotate both hands. The gap between your hands is the bore over height or sight height. Roughly 2” on most people’s rifles. Measured from middle of your rifle bore and middle of your scope…which is your point of aim.

That sight height is the entire issue with cant.

If your projectile was fired from the center of your crosshair there wouldn’t be an issue with cant. Because they would be on the same plane and you could rotate all you want.

I really need you to focus on the angle of launch…the 45degree hand. That is your bore. It may seem like it’s just sitting in your stock parallel to your scope but it is not. The bore is angled upwards…it’s not a lot but it’s there. If it was parallel to your scope your projectile would never cross your point of aim plane. Does that help a little more?