Scope Field Eval Explanation and Standards

[JakeM51]

This right here is EXACTLY why so many of us preach 10, 20, and 30 round groups. 3 or 4 rounds is not enough to get a statistically significant result. These rounds appear to be all within about 1.1 MOA of your "original zero" point shown in the first photo.

What you are describing does happen with some scopes. It's not uncommon for many scopes to wander within a few clicks of a center point at all. But really, you could also just be experiencing the fact that all rifles have a cone of accuracy, and a 3 round "group" just ends up being a randomly selected 3 points within a rifle's cone, or a cherry picked selection of 3 rounds (photos 1 and 2).

My advice is to go shoot a 10 round group and then visually overlay that group with these "groups" here, there's a good chance your 10 round group's extreme spread encompasses all of these "groups" you've shown here.

It went from me showing up and putting 3-5 shots into the same hole exactly at the point of aim every time at 100 yards, to .3 and .5 moa groups scattered around .2 .3 mils off.

If I shot a 20 round group with my Tac Ops the zero would not change, I would just be putting a bigger hole in the paper.

 

[JakeM51]

Fair enough, thanks for the education sir, I've never messed with one before.

@JakeM51, disregard my post then! Carry on!

I had to get bigger dots because I was shooting out the small ones and it was pulling the dots through the paper shot after shot.

 

[Mountainrancher]

While you are correct on all of that, if that is a Tac-Ops rifle, it’s 3-5 shot groups are consistent. They’re what amounts to field bench test rifles. Their ten to twenty round groups with the standard ammo will hover around .5-.7 MOA without much issue.

What exactly is a tac ops rifle? From a quick google search I gather tac ops is a rifle maker but there wasn’t a lot of info I could see. What is it about them that sets them apart and gives you this level of confidence in their accuracy?

 

[JakeM51]

There was a small black dot here.
The zero was exactly point of aim point of impact.

 

[nobody]

It went from me showing up and putting 3-5 shots into the same hole exactly at the point of aim every time at 100 yards, to .3 and .5 moa groups scattered around .2 .3 mils off.

If I shot a 20 round group with my Tac Ops the zero would not change, I would just be putting a bigger hole in the paper.

What I was suggesting is that if you were to keep shooting, to your point bolded here, would you just end up shooting out the cardboard between the 3 other rounds and end up with one "bigger hole" at the end of the 10 rounds? Just trying to weed out the "what ifs" at this point.

EDIT: In other words, trying to verify if your zero has shifted and your groups have opened up, or if your zero point has stayed the same/centered around the same point, but the groups are opening up around that general point of aim and wandering in a relatively close circle around the aim point/zero point.

How many rounds through the rifle?

 

[JakeM51]

Sadly I won't be able to shoot it again for a long time because by the time my scope gets back I will already be in basic.

 

[JakeM51]

What I was suggesting is that if you were to keep shooting, to your point bolded here, would you just end up shooting out the cardboard between the 3 other rounds and end up with one "bigger hole" at the end of the 10 rounds? Just trying to weed out the "what ifs" at this point.

How many rounds through the rifle?

Over 700 now.
I didn't clean it until the carbon built up in the chamber on the shoulder.

 

[nobody]

Over 700 now.
I didn't clean it until the carbon built up in the chamber on the shoulder.

And the groups opened up right after cleaning? Or did they stay tight after cleaning at 700 rounds and then all of a sudden open up?

 

[JakeM51]

And the groups opened up right after cleaning? Or did they stay tight after cleaning at 700 rounds and then all of a sudden open up?

Before I cleaned it.

 

[JakeM51]

The reticle is canted, and it didn't start out like that, so something has moved in the scope no question about it.

 

[JakeM51]

What exactly is a tac ops rifle? From a quick google search I gather tac ops is a rifle maker but there wasn’t a lot of info I could see. What is it about them that sets them apart and gives you this level of confidence in their accuracy?

A lot of proprietary stuff that nobody else knows how to do because they just keep doing the same old same old.
His guns shoot 3 shot groups at 100 yards 1/4" or better with factory match ammo that his reamer is set up for.

Tactical Operations Inc.

 

[Formidilosus]

Fair enough, thanks for the education sir, I've never messed with one before.

@JakeM51, disregard my post then! Carry on!

What exactly is a tac ops rifle? From a quick google search I gather tac ops is a rifle maker but there wasn’t a lot of info I could see. What is it about them that sets them apart and gives you this level of confidence in their accuracy?

Tac-Ops are police marksman (“sniper”) rifles. They are the only “field” rifle that I’ve seen that repeatedly shoot near bench rest level precision from factory ammo. The owner has figured out every part of the rifle- barrel, chamber, throat, torque, bedding, etc, etc, to allow 308’s to shoot Federal Gold Metal Match 168gr ammo to .5-.7 MOA for 10-20 round groups on demand- that’s sub .25 MOA 3 and 5 round groups. They are one of the few guns that people could notice issues with a few 5 round groups.

I’ve not personally used his 6.5’s, but 308 and 300WM- yeah. They shoot extremely well. If he would build on anything not a R700 pattern action I would use several.

 

[Mountainrancher]

Tac-Ops are police marksman (“sniper”) rifles. They are the only “field” rifle that I’ve seen that repeatedly shoot near bench rest level precision from factory ammo. The owner has figured out every part of the rifle- barrel, chamber, throat, torque, bedding, etc, etc, to allow 308’s to shoot Federal Gold Metal Match 168gr ammo to .5-.7 MOA for 10-20 round groups on demand- that’s sub .25 MOA 3 and 5 round groups. They are one of the few guns that people could notice issues with a few 5 round groups.

I’ve not personally used his 6.5’s, but 308 and 300WM- yeah. They shoot extremely well. If he would build on anything not a R700 pattern action I would use several.

Sounds expensive. But also sounds like an incredible rifle system

 

[JakeM51]

Tac-Ops are police marksman (“sniper”) rifles. They are the only “field” rifle that I’ve seen that repeatedly shoot near bench rest level precision from factory ammo. The owner has figured out every part of the rifle- barrel, chamber, throat, torque, bedding, etc, etc, to allow 308’s to shoot Federal Gold Metal Match 168gr ammo to .5-.7 MOA for 10-20 round groups on demand- that’s sub .25 MOA 3 and 5 round groups. They are one of the few guns that people could notice issues with a few 5 round groups.

I’ve not personally used his 6.5’s, but 308 and 300WM- yeah. They shoot extremely well. If he would build on anything not a R700 pattern action I would use several.

Have you ever asked him about something different?
I know that he got started on the rem 700 for the police.
He speaks very highly of Steyr.

 

[Mountainrancher]

Tac-Ops are police marksman (“sniper”) rifles. They are the only “field” rifle that I’ve seen that repeatedly shoot near bench rest level precision from factory ammo. The owner has figured out every part of the rifle- barrel, chamber, throat, torque, bedding, etc, etc, to allow 308’s to shoot Federal Gold Metal Match 168gr ammo to .5-.7 MOA for 10-20 round groups on demand- that’s sub .25 MOA 3 and 5 round groups. They are one of the few guns that people could notice issues with a few 5 round groups.

I’ve not personally used his 6.5’s, but 308 and 300WM- yeah. They shoot extremely well. If he would build on anything not a R700 pattern action I would use several.

I know you’ve spoken and showed that the triggers on r700 patterns are very unreliable is there anything else about them that you dislike or is it only the triggers?

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you ever asked him about something different?
I know that he got started on the rem 700 for the police.
He speaks very highly of Steyr.

I haven’t asked. Others have. I probably should.

I know you’ve spoken and showed that the triggers on r700 patterns are very unreliable is there anything else about them that you dislike or is it only the triggers?

Well you can get an ARC action and those are very good actions- just the weakest trigger in the industry. That’s the problem with all the “custom” actions. There are M70 style actions and Tikka clones that use the R700 trigger.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

3-9x SWFA or 5-20x SWFA.

Form, when you do make the change from 3-9 to 5-20 for target/big game shooting? I'm finding that beyond 850 yards, my eye is having a hard time focusing on my aim point (top of triangle see image below) on my 10" target with my 3-9 HD.



I switch from aiming at the top of the triangle, to aiming at center mass of the 10" circle. I've always been a 4-14x shooter for 1,000 yards and in, and can't really see myself going to 5-20 as I don't think I'll ever use it past 14-16. Do you find yourself utilizing 14+ on the 5-20 variant? I'm tempted to stretch out my new Tikka 7 SAUM past 1,000 yards, and for 10" target shooting I'm not sure the 9x will get me there based on some recent shooting out to 850. Bracketing a big game animal is another story, but I need to confirm consistent hits, don't think I'll get there at 1,000 with the 9X.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, when you do make the change from 3-9 to 5-20 for target/big game shooting? I'm finding that beyond 850 yards, my eye is having a hard time focusing on my aim point (top of triangle see image below) on my 10" target with my 3-9 HD.

View attachment 567612

I switch from aiming at the top of the triangle, to aiming at center mass of the 10" circle. I've always been a 4-14x shooter for 1,000 yards and in, and can't really see myself going to 5-20 as I don't think I'll ever use it past 14-16. Do you find yourself utilizing 14+ on the 5-20 variant? I'm tempted to stretch out my new Tikka 7 SAUM past 1,000 yards, and for 10" target shooting I'm not sure the 9x will get me there based on some recent shooting out to 850. Bracketing a big game animal is another story, but I need to confirm consistent hits, don't think I'll get there at 1,000 with the 9X.

I’m basically 1x per 100 yards for the vast majority of shots on deer sized vitals and larger. So somewhere around 1,000-1,100 yards is where I would go beyond 9x.
However, only if I was shooting the majority of my animals past 700’ish yards. Even at 1,200 or 1,300 yards I am between 11-14x max.

I need to be able to see the middle of what I want to hit (quarter it) and that’s about it. I don’t care if I can see a specific hair or whatever.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I’m basically 1x per 100 yards for the vast majority of shots on deer sized vitals and larger. So somewhere around 1,000-1,100 yards is where I would go beyond 9x.
However, only if I was shooting the majority of my animals past 700’ish yards. Even at 1,200 or 1,300 yards I am between 11-14x max.

I need to be able to see the middle of what I want to hit (quarter it) and that’s about it. I don’t care if I can see a specific hair or whatever.

Right on, trying to balance my bench rest/varmint hunting history, and realistic big game hunting gets me into the weeds way too much. Keep it simple, 10-4 thanks.

 

[Formidilosus]

Right on, trying to balance my bench rest/varmint hunting history, and realistic big game hunting gets me into the weeds way too much. Keep it simple, 10-4 thanks.

I can understand that.