Safe harvest rate on family farm

[wadej223]

Greetings all, I hope your seasons are going well. I am a new hunter and have a question regarding the sustainability of harvesting deer off of my families farm.

My family has 300 acres of land in upstate NY that is leased to a farmer. It is approximately 125 acres corn, 125 acres soy beans and 50 acres of woods. Until two years ago when I took up hunting, the property had not been hunted for decades. I am taking three friend hunting this year. They each want to harvest two deer off of the property and I'm concerned that it is not sustainable. It is difficult to estimate the number of deer as I only have one trail cam. I have seen at least 15 individual bucks on my cam and in person with 10ish being mature. I am sure there is more out there I haven't seen. conservatively I think there is around 40-50 home doe on the property. On an average 3 hour morning sit I see 10-15 deer working around the field edges from my stand with a view of 1/4 of the property. I have never left the property without an opportunity to take a deer with my bow. Last year after the corn was down I kicked up one individual group of 30+ doe. I am not sure how many deer are in the corn. It is a maize of deer trails/beds. Until my dad cut it down with the bush hog, I had one overgrown area with 50+ beds in it. The property is largely surrounded by developments. There is little outside hunting pressure. I have a pack of 10+ coyotes that call the property home and will come within 50 feet of you when walking to the stand. 8-10 deer get hit by cars around the house every year. My grandfather had a tradition of hitting one every time he got a new car (brand new $50,000 CTS).

My question is, is it sustainable to harvest 4 buck and 4 doe from this property per year? Everyone will get their doe for sure on the first morning and probably the buck later on. Even as a new hunter, I recognize that I am in a pretty good situation. I want to make sure I don't ruin it for future years. Should I limit everyone to any one deer? Also, how much of an effect would killing off those coyotes and planting a small fruit orchard have on the herd.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Sorry for the long read

 

[dr.mooseknuckles]

Sounds like 8 deer off the property is pretty reasonable. If you can kill off the coyotes your fawn recruitment rate will be higher. It sounds like you need to focus more on your does and only kill mature bucks (3.5 yrs and up depending on what you’ve seen). The general recommendation from QDMA is a 2:1 doe to buck harvest ratio

Id’d recommend the addition of 3-4 more cameras along trails from food to bedding. That way you can get a better herd status and go from there. Whats the timber like?


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[ezmorningrebel]

if you're kicking up 30 does at once and have 15 different bucks on one trail camera i can't imagine how many deer are actually in there. doesn't sound like taking 8 deer in one year would be detrimental.

 

[Tod osier]

They are going to get scarce quick when the shooting starts the mature deer will be the first to respond and most strongly. Shooting a bunch of does on the opener will impact the ability to see mature bucks. Sounds like a lot of deer, but it is a fairly small property if only 50 of cover. I don’t know how to manage it, but 4 guys trying to shoot 8 deer is not the way to get those mature bucks.

 

[wadej223]

Thank you for the advice! the timber is a mix of mature oak & maple with some birch thrown in. I have noticed lots of oak's dropping acorns this year. The issue I am having is from what I can tell the food is largely the bedding area. The deer spend most of there time in the standing corn. The woods are abandoned unless it is dusk/dawn. On multiple all day sits I have seen no movement during the late morning/early afternoon even during peak rut. In the stand I see around 20 does to every mature buck. Two weekends ago I saw a 1.5 year old with his own harem of mature does. I have had eyes on mature bucks 3/5 days so far this year. I had a clean miss on a monster Saturday morning. Luckily he was so busy chasing away a fork point he didn't notice my arrow fly by. One of my friend harvested a 9 point two weekends ago. I took my first bow doe last night as it was my last time out with the bow for the year. Got a perfect double lung.

 

[wadej223]

Thanks for the advice. 2/8 are already down with a bow. One of the other hunters is using a crossbow so there will only be 3 guns. of those three guns, myself and another gentlemen will only shoot at mature bucks. The crossbow hunter and the third gun hunters are both first timers. Told them to shoot whatever they want as a first deer so hopefully it all works out. I would expect one doe shot with a firearm on opening morning, another with a crossbow and all shots will be on mature bucks from that point forward. I don't know how many shots the first timer will take at his animal when the nerves set in.

 

[wadej223]

Update, the crossbow hunter is skipping opening day to go on a wine tour. ****ing girlfriends. I guess one of the other guys is going to hunt with his brother on a different property for family time. This leaves me and the newbie shotgun hunter on opening day.

 

[Tod osier]

Thanks for the advice. 2/8 are already down with a bow. One of the other hunters is using a crossbow so there will only be 3 guns. of those three guns, myself and another gentlemen will only shoot at mature bucks. The crossbow hunter and the third gun hunters are both first timers. Told them to shoot whatever they want as a first deer so hopefully it all works out. I would expect one doe shot with a firearm on opening morning, another with a crossbow and all shots will be on mature bucks from that point forward. I don't know how many shots the first timer will take at his animal when the nerves set in.

It isn't just the gunshots, it is the number of people in the woods, dragging out deer, trailing deer across the property, people going on walk about, etc... Sounds like you will have deer to shoot, but if you want good chances at the best deer having that many guys on the property will kill it pretty quick. I've hunted crop damage for years on a property and hunt a small parcel behind the house and I've learned a lot of lessons about managing impact and not burning a place out. If you want to manage the impact for your benefit you need to be pretty rigid and make sure that people are hunting the proper stands given the wind and their approach (not their favorite stands) and not having a disproportionate impact on the deer. I'm sure there are tons of experts out there that have this kind of thing dialed in, but I have just learned by trial and error.

Tell your dad not to brush hog that bedding area again.

 

[wadej223]

It isn't just the gunshots, it is the number of people in the woods, dragging out deer, trailing deer across the property, people going on walk about, etc... Sounds like you will have deer to shoot, but if you want good chances at the best deer having that many guys on the property will kill it pretty quick. I've hunted crop damage for years on a property and hunt a small parcel behind the house and I've learned a lot of lessons about managing impact and not burning a place out. If you want to manage the impact for your benefit you need to be pretty rigid and make sure that people are hunting the proper stands given the wind and their approach (not their favorite stands) and not having a disproportionate impact on the deer. I'm sure there are tons of experts out there that have this kind of thing dialed in, but I have just learned by trial and error.

Tell your dad not to brush hog that bedding area again.

Thank you for the advice. I am going to make sure everyone knows to stay in there stands and not move around. The property will see no action on weekdays. Hopefully that helps it cool down. Ultimately we are talking about 6 days of hunting pressure and I would assume most days not everyone will be able to make it out.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Personally, I wouldn't care how many deer they want to shoot, it's your property. If I had to take someone hunting, I'd tell them that they could shoot one deer.

How's the twinning rates on the property? Do the does normally have one or two fawns with the occasional triplet? Or do does have twins that far north?

 

[wadej223]

Personally, I wouldn't care how many deer they want to shoot, it's your property. If I had to take someone hunting, I'd tell them that they could shoot one deer.

How's the twinning rates on the property? Do the does normally have one or two fawns with the occasional triplet? Or do does have twins that far north?

I would say the twin rate is 25%-50%. It is certainty not unusual to see a doe with two fawns but it doesn't happen every time. I also don't know what percentage were slaughtered by Coyotes within a few hours of being brought into the world. I see allot of Coyote scat and it always has fur in it. I'm going to try to bring the pain to them as soon as deer season closes. I don't mind my friends shooting two if its sustainable. I doubt everyone will actually get a shot at a mature buck with limited time anyways. I like to share natures bounty with my friends. Although big racks are nice I'm more concerned with having a steak factory. My reason for the original question is to make sure there are deer around for many years to come.

 

[Studd muffin]

If you are only concerned with meat, and not mature bucks. Than you have plenty of deer to take 8 off of per year.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I would say the twin rate is 25%-50%. It is certainty not unusual to see a doe with two fawns but it doesn't happen every time. I also don't know what percentage were slaughtered by Coyotes within a few hours of being brought into the world. I see allot of Coyote scat and it always has fur in it. I'm going to try to bring the pain to them as soon as deer season closes. I don't mind my friends shooting two if its sustainable. I doubt everyone will actually get a shot at a mature buck with limited time anyways. I like to share natures bounty with my friends. Although big racks are nice I'm more concerned with having a steak factory. My reason for the original question is to make sure there are deer around for many years to come.

Given those rates, I wouldn't have a problem with letting them shoot a couple. Some studies that I've seen indicated that trapping coyotes at fawn drop had the greatest impact on fawn survival than picking a couple off during or after season. Just something to keep in mind. Management of a natural resource is a fluid process. Just keep your eye on what you're seeing, population wise, and don't be afraid to curtail the limits.

Good luck. Sounds like a great place to hunt.

 

[wadej223]

Given those rates, I wouldn't have a problem with letting them shoot a couple. Some studies that I've seen indicated that trapping coyotes at fawn drop had the greatest impact on fawn survival than picking a couple off during or after season. Just something to keep in mind. Management of a natural resource is a fluid process. Just keep your eye on what you're seeing, population wise, and don't be afraid to curtail the limits.

Good luck. Sounds like a great place to hunt.

Thank you for the advice. Very grateful to my grandfather. I agree that I probably need to trap. My goal is to kill off 50% of the coyote population before spring and I don't think that can be accomplished through calling them in.

 

[Btaylor]

The quality of your hunting long term will be directly impacted by the amount of pressure you put on the ground. Like mentioned earlier, 300 acres is small in terms of deer home range and every time you enter the property you are pressuring it. I would encourage keeping things on the conservative side for a season or 2 and hold harvest to a deer per person and gauge how the deer population reacts both bucks and does. Also like mentioned above, I would be adamant about where and when people hunt keeping wind and access the top priority. With that much food your property is going to appear deceptively high in population but with that low of a percentage of available cover it would burn out very quickly if hunted carelessly.

I would also take into consideration the make up and hunting pressure of the surrounding farms as well. I would look at a 1.5-2 radius around your property when considering long term strategy.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

The Quality Deer Management Association | QDMA

This has been one of the most helpful and interesting sites I’ve come across, and I don’t even manage property.

If the numbers are there, you aren’t likely to “deplete” them by killing 8 deer a year in terms of them not being able to reproduce enough to keep up. What will happen, as others have said, is a significant increase in pressure. On 300 acres, the deer are either going to leave, even if it is into the suburbs, or bed down during the day and become active at night.

Rather than having a different person hunt each weekend if the season, you’d do better to have everyone there at once, shoot a deer in the morning, and leave it alone for several weeks.

I typically draw a quota tag to hunt a wildlife refuge here each year, the first day there is a ton of movement, the second day is maybe 25% of the first, and days 3-5 there is zero. You will likely experience something similar where you see almost no deer for awhile after introducing pressure, then it will rebound and stabilize if you treat it properly.

 

[Molon Labe]

I would hunt the first day only mature bucks until 3:00 in the afternoon...or whenever the does get out in the fields to feed at night...then hammer some does...drop them out in the fields and make sure. You can take 8 deer no problem. The second day of season you wont see as many deer...

Your coyotes will always be there...nothing you do will stop them from being around. They will just keep coming to fill the space as you kill them...suburbs can provide a ton of yotes. IF you can kill coyotes year round then I would work on your coyotes in April/May...take out your locals and the just dropped fawns will have a better chance at surviving. It usually takes a few weeks for more yotes to fill into an area...and longer when they have dens with pups of their own. Mommas will not hunt too far away from their dens when their pups are young...

 

[Trial153]

Dont forget its NY, we have some of 4t he highest hunter densities in the country. It pretty sad actually. But in any event your not hunting in a vacuum. I think it pays to he on the conservative side of things

 

[Tauntohawk]

How's it going? Should be a few days into gun season in NY. Sounds like a dream property

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[wadej223]

How's it going? Should be a few days into gun season in NY. Sounds like a dream property

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It's going well. I got my doe with the bow. I harvested my mature buck around 7:10AM on opening day of gun. He didn't run 50yds thanks to Hornady 178grain ELDX. We would be 6/8 right now if my friend wasn't an idiot. The last hunter has only been out for around 6 hours, saw 5 deer and passed them all waiting for a big boy. I had a terrible incident with one of the first time hunters. On the way out of his stand Sunday evening he ran into a huge group of doe with one of the biggest mature bucks on the property. He immediately started shooting and put what we think was an above the spine shot on the buck. Once the buck spooked he started shooting at a doe. He called me with buck fever so bad, he was hyperventilating. After hearing his story and flipping out on him for shooting at two deer without watching the first drop, we initiated a track through the standing corn. There was a drop of blood in the snow ever 50yds. We followed the bucks foot prints 400yds to the property line and abandoned the search until I could git permission to go on the neibors property. I went back by myself on Monday and resumed searching. I tracked the animal around another 1,200yds for 6 hours through snow with virtually no blood before completely losing the trail. It didn't bed down at any point. At that point I gave up the search and decided to walk home. I was walking below the initial shot sight and to my whore discovered a second blood trail coming from where he shot. He had hit both animals. I had another gentleman come out and help me track. We followed the blood through the corn until it clotted. Once we lost blood we followed footprints in the snow. When those got jumbled, we started doing circles trying to find more blood. Eventually we just decided to walk the rows hoping to see any sign. We found nothing. I think the blood I was seeing on the neibors property was from both animals. It was a complete disaster and left me feeling terrible. Im not sure how angry to be because this guy is a first timer with no idea what he is doing. I told him he can have one more shot but if he dosen't get a clean kill thats it forever on my families land. Despite all this activity, there is still allot of deer moving on the property. We have a creek running through the property that offers an easy travel quarter to other properties bypassing all developments. I think this is why we have so many animals. In another area of the property my aunt claims to have around 20 animals walking around her house in a cut bean field every evening.